311 replies to this topic

[nom de guerre]

Most of the "problems" this is intended to address are way overblown, the NPE is not that bad/scary unless you expect to, and feel that you are entitled to wtf pwn instantly

[Taryys]

The fact that there are a crap load of threads complaining about this tends to show that you are wrong.
This is something that we complained about in CB. NPE IS a big deal if we want new players to stay. Period.

The current trial experience is hard to learn from since you have no way of adjusting anything, nor any feedback or explanation as to why you are sucking. This especially difficult for people who are new to the franchise. People are also locked out of one of the most important and alluring aspects of the game from the start - the mechlab. If you want people to really get drawn in they need to have some sort of access to the mechlab to start.

MWO currently suffers from a lack of graduation. There are very few discrete levels where most MMO/F2P have significant levels. We have trial, mechlab access, basic, elite, master, modules and that is about it. Some of what I suggest will add another level or 2 to that (trials with mechlab, tutorial), which is really needed.



None of what I suggest has to do with "wtf pwn instantly" and this comment is not appreciated here.

nom de guerre, on 11 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Most of the "problems" this is intended to address are way overblown, the NPE is not that bad/scary unless you expect to, and feel that you are entitled to wtf pwn instantly

[MustrumRidcully]

nom de guerre, on 11 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Most of the "problems" this is intended to address are way overblown, the NPE is not that bad/scary unless you expect to, and feel that you are entitled to wtf pwn instantly

You overestimate vastly what new players expect from their performance in the early game.

Most are just happy to figure out the controls and fire some weapons. They don't generally expect to dominate. But they will be confused by the lack of a real tutorial that teaches them the controls, and then when they decide to fire their weapon, if they picked the wrong mech (and a mech called "Awesome" totally doesn't sound like the wrong mech to me), and overheat rapidly, experiencing a common loss of control in addition to their confusion about everything they don't know yet about the game.

And then, once they understood some basics, they realize that they are stuck in a mech whose obvious weaknesses they already identified (overheats too quickly) for 30+ matches... And then they just have another mech that's too hot, they still need more grinding to pay his equipment. And they don't eve know yet what kind of equipment they'll need, because they haven't seen the mech bay yet.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 December 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Taryys]

I will have some of what he is having.

MustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

You overestimate vastly what new players expect from their performance in the early game.

Most are just happy to figure out the controls and fire some weapons. They don't generally expect to dominate. But they will be confused by the lack of a real tutorial that teaches them the controls, and then when they decide to fire their weapon, if they picked the wrong mech (and a mech called "Awesome" totally doesn't sound like the wrong mech to me), and overheat rapidly, experiencing a common loss of control in addition to their confusion about everything they don't know yet about the game.

And then, once they understood some basics, they realize that they are stuck in a mech whose obvious weaknesses they already identified (overheats too quickly) for 30+ matches... And then they just have another mech that's too hot, they still need more grinding to pay his equipment. And they don't eve know yet what kind of equipment they'll need, because they haven't seen the mech bay yet.

[Zygwen]

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

I am Prosing Fixes for:

* AFK/Suicide/Botting
* painful F2P grinding experience
* painful new player experience

I don't think the F2P grinding experience should be fixed. If you fix it too much there is no insentive to pay for premium time and less incentive to get Hero mechs.

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

What to do?

Do the following:

... give 1 week of Premium Time: Give them 1 free week of premium time follwing completion of the tutorial. This way they will get used to the extra money as well as give them a monetary boost allowing them to get into a mech of their own sooner. This will also get them hooked on Premium time like a drug = more money for you!

I'd suggest an achievement system. Some of the rewards could be extra C-Bills, enough MC credits for 1 mech bay, 1 week of premium time, ornaments, decals and camo colors. Early achievements plus the number of rounds required to earn them should pay out enough c-bills to buy a Commando.

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

... integrate C3 for PUGs: What will really help new players in addition to this is C3 integration for PUGs. Communication is key in a team based game like this. Once PUGs and new playes have access to voice comms MWO becomes a totally different game.

I think intergration of C3 should be a priority. Having to download and install an independent app is a complete non starter for me. Especially when I know other games have it intergrated.

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

... option to Lock Torso to Legs: A stop gap idea to help new pilots adjust would be to add a button to lock torso to legs until they are able to put on their big mech pants on and join the big leagues by learning to fully utilize torso twisting, and the independent movement of arms and legs. This was one of the most difficult things for me to adjust to.

... option to Auto-rotate Legs to Torso: another stop gap option to help new pilots adjust would be to add a button to auto-rotate legs to torso, which could rotate at the normal torso twist speed.

In MW4 I hated torso twist. In MWO I love it and I have become a better pilot due to using it. I would disagree with providing these options. It really didn't take that long to learn and if I had the option to lock torso I probably never would have.

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

... give access to MechLab:

I'd give only 10% of normal xp when playing trial mechs and let them spend it in the Pilot lab. This gives them more goals to achieve.

I think giving access to MechLab on trial mechs is giving away too much. I play a lot with level 1 tech. So allowing customization of trial mechs would remove the need for me to buy mechs to customize.

Taryys, on 14 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

... adjust XP/CBill Rewards:
* have trial mechs alternate weekly
* remove the Win/Loss bonus, and replace with a win loss multiplier (win x 1.5; loss x 1.0 or whatever) or get rid of it altogether
* balance out the XP/CBill rewards based weight or weight class of mech. Add more rewards to emphasize team work more. Some great suggestions from Hayashi are:

• damage taken (tanking)
  
• damage assistance (via TAG or NARC at 50% the reward rate of personal damage)
  
• defending the base (standing in your own square to prevent an enemy cap)
  
• defending a teammate (dealing damage to a target which is firing on a teammate with < 50% health)
  
• et cetera.

* only grant the 75% rearm and repair bonus if they pay for the rearm and repair

Some good ideas here. Getting XP or CBills for damage taken will also benefit afk/suiciders though.

[nom de guerre]

Taryys, on 11 December 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

and this comment is not appreciated here.

neither is your link bombing every thread on the forums, but that's another issue...

The NPE is acceptable, at mos they need tooltips and possibly a tutorial but the game is NOT that hard to figure out at all.

[Taryys]

I have been doing it less and attempting to do it less obtrusively.

nom de guerre, on 11 December 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

neither is your link bombing every thread on the forums, but that's another issue...

[Taryys]

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I don't think the F2P grinding experience should be fixed. If you fix it too much there is no insentive to pay for premium time and less incentive to get Hero mechs.

I disagree. A delicate balance will need to be struck to keep people interested and make it challenging enough to get them to pay. Currently the trial mode is not as useful to PGI or to new players as it could be resulting in lost players.

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'd suggest an achievement system. Some of the rewards could be extra C-Bills, enough MC credits for 1 mech bay, 1 week of premium time, ornaments, decals and camo colors. Early achievements plus the number of rounds required to earn them should pay out enough c-bills to buy a Commando.

I agree. I talk about this a little bit more in my thread on a Robust Tutorial which is linked to in the OP. I do not go into great detail since achievements are a bit beyond the scope of what I am talking about, but yea, that is needed.

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I think intergration of C3 should be a priority. Having to download and install an independent app is a complete non starter for me. Especially when I know other games have it intergrated.

Agreed.

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

In MW4 I hated torso twist. In MWO I love it and I have become a better pilot due to using it. I would disagree with providing these options. It really didn't take that long to learn and if I had the option to lock torso I probably never would have.

I have them there mostly as options for those who prefer them. I do not use them either.

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I'd give only 10% of normal xp when playing trial mechs and let them spend it in the Pilot lab. This gives them more goals to achieve.

The only problem with that is it still may have them trying to concentrate what little experience they would make into 1 mech instead of trying to learn the game. GXP is more appropriate since they are trying to learn "general" skills and is not variant specific.

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

I think giving access to MechLab on trial mechs is giving away too much. I play a lot with level 1 tech. So allowing customization of trial mechs would remove the need for me to buy mechs to customize.

No true. I see you thoughts and I also kind of worry about that. They still do not get variant XP, and cannot unlock their iefficiencies, and cannot change engine, armor, type, and other changes with what I am proposing. At some point they will need to move forward out of trial.

Zygwen, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Some good ideas here. Getting XP or CBills for damage taken will also benefit afk/suiciders though.

Hmmm... good point. I may have to remove that.

Edited by Taryys, 11 December 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Taryys, on 11 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

and cannot unlock their inefficiencies

But then, who would want to?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 11 December 2012 - 10:21 AM.

[Taryys]

People who want to play the game in a non-hamstringed fashion? ...especially with all of the other limitations imposed?

Need to level... need (semi) instant satisfaction... need to be 1337 h@x0r maxed out mech spec dude.... must do it... must.....

MustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

But then, who would want to?

Edited by Taryys, 11 December 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[soarra]

nom de guerre, on 11 December 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

neither is your link bombing every thread on the forums, but that's another issue...

The NPE is acceptable, at mos they need tooltips and possibly a tutorial but the game is NOT that hard to figure out at all.

well he offers constructive feedback and lots of suggestions so ill take his posts all day compared to THIS GAME IS BROKE threads.

[MustrumRidcully]

Taryys, on 11 December 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

People who want to play the game in a non-hamstringed fashion? ...especially with all of the other limitations imposed?

Need to level... need (semi) instant satisfaction... need to be 1337 h@x0r maxed out mech spec dude.... must do it... must.....

I went back and bolded for emphasis.

Mustrum "I hope he gets it this time" Ridcully

[nom de guerre]

soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

well he offers constructive feedback and lots of suggestions so ill take his posts all day compared to THIS GAME IS BROKE threads.

I disagree on the need for and the efficacy of the changes he suggests.

[skamage]

Planetside 2 lets you trial any of the weapons for 30 minutes then it's on a cooldown for certain amount of time (can't remember the exact value). I think it would be good if MWO did the same thing.

[Taryys]

LOL! I was wondering wth I was missing!
Stoopid fingers!!!
Grrr....

Thanks!

MustrumRidcully, on 11 December 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I went back and bolded for emphasis.

Mustrum "I hope he gets it this time" Ridcully

Interesting thought.

For me, a client side private test area will be better that way they can test whatever they want so they have a clue, especially if there random mechs are there to shoot at.

skamage, on 11 December 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Planetside 2 lets you trial any of the weapons for 30 minutes then it's on a cooldown for certain amount of time (can't remember the exact value). I think it would be good if MWO did the same thing.

[soarra]

nom de guerre, on 11 December 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

I disagree on the need for and the efficacy of the changes he suggests.

no one is saying you have to agree with all his ideas, but he always offers suggestions and not just complains like most people.

[Vlad Ward]

soarra, on 11 December 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

no one is saying you have to agree with all his ideas, but he always offers suggestions and not just complains like most people.

I can commend him for not being a grognard in that respect, but I must agree that the incessant spam of this thread anywhere and everywhere on the forums turned me off from even bothering to read past line 10 or so. Good threads stand on their own, they don't need constant linking and bumping to stay alive.

If it's really worth reading through on its own merits, I might take a look at the OP again, but at first glance the majority of the suggestions were either common sense (Add a tutorial) or poorly thought out (A week of premium time for new players and rewards for damage taken).

[soarra]

just give them a training area and after completion you get a lump sum of cbills to put towards your first mech.
Can only be completed once per account.
Basic firing
weapon groups
turning
zoom
heat control
and mech building

[Taryys]

This was removed today after someone pointed out the issue with it.

Vlad Ward, on 11 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

poorly thought out (rewards for damage taken).

[Vlad Ward]

Okay, I read it, so I'll address each topic one at a time then:

... add a Robust Tutorial:

I feel like this has been on PGI's to-do list for a while.


... give 1 week of Premium Time:

This is a bad idea. You don't want players to suddenly feel like they're making less money than they started out with. That makes them feel bad.

You want them to start out making some baseline of money and then start making more when they buy Premium time. That makes them feel good.

... add a Client Side Practice Arena:

This is simply not feasible for a server-authoritative, online-only game that isn't designed for independent client-side use. The amount of work this would entail is comparable to making the entire game a second time.

... integrate C3 for PUGs

I'm sure this has been on the to-do list for a while as well.

... add a Robust Text Chat Option:

Again, to-do list. UI overhaul part 1 is coming in January. I don't expect that any of the current chat/social system is more than a placeholder.


... add Stat Based Matched Making:

This is good. They're already doing this.

... add a Battlvalue Based Match Making:

This is bad. This is very bad. Stat-based matchmaking is plenty. Adding BV matchmaking means throwing in new players who just spent some MC on a shiny new Atlas up against veterans with tricked out hunchbacks. This doesn't help new players, and frankly it isn't necessary for veterans.

... add a pre-game/post-game lobby:

UI overhaul, to-do list, etc.

... option to Lock Torso to Legs:

Hold the left Ctrl key to keep your torso locked to your legs. Mouse will then only move your arms and change your view within your cockpit.

... option to Auto-rotate Legs to Torso:

Interesting idea, but making it automatic would be disorienting. Torsos and arms twist a lot faster than legs. I'd prefer a button you can press to center your legs to your torso reticle.

... give access to MechLab:

The Mechlab is one of the primary draws of the game. I just don't think it would be worth it for new players to spend their beginning c-bills on weapons for a Trial Chassis when they could be saving them up for a new Mech. Giving them this option only hurts them in the long run.

That ~1,000,000 c-bills they spent on an Autocannon and a few lasers for their Trial Hunchback could have bought them their own Commando. We can't expect new players to understand the value of c-bills and the proportional cost of weapons systems right away.

This also establishes the expectation that Tier 2 weapons are "Better" than Tier 1, when the Developers have explicitly stated that they do not want this to be the case. Medium Pulse Lasers are not universally better than Medium Lasers. The LB-10X is not better than the AC/10.

... adjust XP/CBill Rewards:

A whole slew of things here. As I've mentioned a thousand times in threads about this, switching to pure performance rewards only increases the amount of money experienced players make and decreases the amount of money new players make.

The average new player is only surviving because of their Win/Loss rewards. They're doing 0-10 damage every single match. Fighting other new players will not significantly change this dynamic.

It's not like veterans are dropping into every game with new players and magically taking 0 damage. New players are going to spend most of their first 10-20 games running into walls and shooting their allies. If they make absolutely no money while doing this, they will just quit.

Performance rewards based on weight class is probably the silliest thing I've ever heard. I understand that it's supposed to be an incentive to get people "away from Atlases", but it's the wrong way to go about it. Contrary to popular forum rhetoric, the Atlas is not the undisputed king of the battlefield wearing a +5 Breastplate of Invincibility and a +10 Sword of Cagglemashing.

While I think forcing your team into a 2/2/2/2 mold is just as stupid and useless as a 2/0/0/6, teams balanced for the current meta will always beat out spam teams.

On top of all of this, the single highest reward in the game right now is entirely team-based. It's called Salvage. No one ever brings it up when they talk about performance because most people don't have any idea how it works.

Salvage rewards you for bringing lower Tonnage and Tech than your opponents and beating them.

Salvage is entirely team-based, so even the lowly scout gets an equal piece of the pie.

Salvage rewards proportional skill and not absolute skill; the greater your team's skill level is relative to the skill level of your opponents, the more you get.

... pay to Trial a Variant:

Similar to the issues with buying weapons to put on your Trial mechs, I feel like this would allow players to waste money that could be better spent on an owned Mech. Giving that option to people who don't yet understand the game is a bad idea.

... add a Wiki:

Most wikis are unofficial things. The current mwowiki looks pretty good to me.