42 replies to this topic

[Hatamoto Shi]

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

It's obvious you have no clue of any MW beyond the current FirstPersonShooter twitchfest that is MWO.
MWO is by far the twitchiest, least canon/authentic of all Mechwarrior games. FirstPersonShooter restriction is only a part of its problem. Ability to go passive sensor while in third person enables awareness of enemy movement without giving out your own position.

Ha ha ha ha
You must be verry young if you think 3rd person was always in mechwarrior
I remember a time on mijn 486 PC ( DOS ) There was NO 3rd person.
There was a wireframe option and you had to use a joystick to play the game.
Aaah the good old days.
But 3rd person is not the answer to the blind spot.
Team work and piloting skill is the answer.
So form a lance ( 4 persons ) stick together and KILL those idiots that charge forwards alone.
The passive sensor mode i miss but i NEVER NEVER played in 3rd person.
If you want to play someting in 3rd person go play with an X-Box.
TEAMWORK sir TEAMWORK.

So NO 3rd person view for me.

Edited by Hatamoto Shi, 14 November 2012 - 04:29 PM.

[FrupertApricot]

The rear blind spot is still ******** from the point of view that we should be able to flip arms and target to the rear with several of these mech designs. just more dumbing down of battletech mechanics for your ilk.

[Zorak45]

They should think about how many fewer cockpit accessories (bobble heads etc) they would sell if its tactically advantageous to use third person view over first person.. ohwell, back to using it to view over ridges like MW4 and poptart the night away.

Edited by Zorak45, 14 November 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[Harrels Badgerton]

Didn't the lore have some kind of 270 degree visual thing where you could see around yourself? Maybe 360, not sure. But it was a narrow, compressed band in the cockpit. Hard to see anything with, but you could aim your rear mounted lasers with it. and not be too terribly surprised.

With that said I'd rather have the current nothing than third person view. I don't care what you argue, there is nothing cheesier than sitting by a building in 3rd person peeking around the side. You're meant to have a weakness in the game. If you don't want to get shot in the butt have a friend watching it, and if you want situational awareness get people to spot.

[Pocket Psycho]

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Twitchy means zerging in and shooting stuff, like you do in FirstPersonShooters.

"Poptarting" simply means you've failed to flank, you're out in the open, you weren't in position to destroy enemy that's picking you off before they got into position, and your team suck at coordination and planning. It means you've lost. And having sucked at MechWarrior, you wish to turn MWO into something that's FirstPersonShooter instead of MechWarrior.

Actually "Poptarting" in MW4 Multiplayer referred to people loading up on ER Large Lasers, hiding behind cover, using 3rd person view to see over that cover and then using Jump Jets to 'Pop' over the cover for the 1/2 second it took to CT blast the enemy with the lasers before dropping back into cover. The use of the 3rd person view was one of the main reason this tactic was so viable, it allowed you to watch an approach without being exposed at all, and allowed you to line up your shots prior to exposing your 'Mech to enemy fire.

[Dagger906]

Hatamoto Shi, on 14 November 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Ha ha ha ha
You must be verry young if you think 3rd person was always in mechwarrior
I remember a time on mijn 486 PC ( DOS ) There was NO 3rd person.
There was a wireframe option and you had to use a joystick to play the game.
Aaah the good old days.
But 3rd person is not the answer to the blind spot.
Team work and piloting skill is the answer.
So form a lance ( 4 persons ) stick together and KILL those idiots that charge forwards alone.

So NO 3rd person view for me.

3rd person first appeared since revision of MW2. Before that, the control scheme doesn't allow for twitch fps anyway, with keyboard only, not even a joystick. Twitch fps only became possible after games gained mouse control. 486 is from the 90s, young compared to Mechwarrior heritage.

In any case, blind spot was never the point. In a proper strategic sim like previous MWs, flanking means moving into position under cover behind your cover, not directly behind you mech point blank. If they managed to flank you, you wouldn've been dead long before they get that close, not that they would want to. MWO has too much twitch and none of the positioning/strategic elements.

[Dagger906]

Pocket Psycho, on 14 November 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Actually "Poptarting" in MW4 Multiplayer referred to people loading up on ER Large Lasers, hiding behind cover, using 3rd person view to see over that cover and then using Jump Jets to 'Pop' over the cover for the 1/2 second it took to CT blast the enemy with the lasers before dropping back into cover. The use of the 3rd person view was one of the main reason this tactic was so viable, it allowed you to watch an approach without being exposed at all, and allowed you to line up your shots prior to exposing your 'Mech to enemy fire.

First of all, they don't use lasers(alpha too low, rop unnecessarily high), the proper tools for that job are PPC & Gauss, ideally in a ECM mech with triple space energy/projectile/omni slots, such as Gladiator and Black Knight. Missiles are more suitable for flatter maps, instead of this tactic.

Secondly, that's exactly what I said. You're supposed to pick them as they were in the open while moving into cover. Once they're already in cover, you flank them, using cover along the way, minimizing exposed duration. And no, charging in gets you killed. You have to circle around. Yes, it takes strategy, and coordination, and most of all patience, all of which current MWO twitch FirstPersonShooter jocks looking for 3 minute matches lack. This thread is full of such whinners complaining of "popptarters" but can't manage to do the same because they lack beforementioned qualities to play a proper strategic sim like Mechwarrior.

[Noth]

Pretty much everything Dagger says doesn't happen in MWO happens in every match I play. There is flanking, strategic movements, usage of cover, bating, scouting defending. Rarely ever is it just a zerg to brawl and done. I really do not think he plays this game at all. Further 3rd person has nothing to do with being tactical or strategic.

Edited by Noth, 14 November 2012 - 04:25 PM.

[Ashnod]

no.

[Dagger906]

Noth, on 14 November 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Pretty much everything Dagger says doesn't happen in MWO happens in every match I play. There is flanking, strategic movements, usage of cover, bating, scouting defending. Rarely ever is it just a zerg to brawl and done. I really do not think he plays this game at all. Further 3rd person has nothing to do with being tactical or strategic.

None of these aspects are present. It's a zerg brawl with varying distances when match ends in 3 minutes, period. You need to check previous MW games to see what real strategic sim is. That is, if you have the required patience for possibly hour long match of mostly chess-style positioning and not nearly as much shooting compared to MWO.

[Noth]

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

None of these aspects are present. It's a zerg brawl with varying distances when match ends in 3 minutes, period. You need to check previous MW games to see what real strategic sim is. That is, if you have the required patience for possibly hour long match of mostly chess-style positioning and not nearly as much shooting compared to MWO.

I did, they broke down to people running the biggest mechs they could with jump jets and just poptart sniping anyone who jumped out of cover. It was not tactical, nor took much thought.

If you can't see the tactics that go on in this game, then it is because you are just running to brawl. I almost never brawl, I maneuver hit and run, sneak, spot, bait, use cover, force people into cover, etc. The only time I brawl is if I'm in a mech I designed to brawl and even then I don't straight up brawl, I flank as best I can. Everything you say doesn't happen, does happen.

[Pocket Psycho]

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

None of these aspects are present. It's a zerg brawl with varying distances when match ends in 3 minutes, period. You need to check previous MW games to see what real strategic sim is. That is, if you have the required patience for possibly hour long match of mostly chess-style positioning and not nearly as much shooting compared to MWO.

I'd avoid absolute statements if I were you, unless you are present in every single match or have somehow interviewed every player about every match they've been in then there's no way to say that people don't use flanking, baiting, ambushes or any number of other tactics.

As for the Zerg-brawl 3 min matches, my average match length is around 8-10 minutes, granted that isn't your dream of epic several hour long chess style battles, but you know what, I have other things to do outside of the game, so I'm okay with being able to play a couple of different matches within an hour. The only really short games I've had have either been cap rushing or when one team (usually mine) decides to march single file directly into enemy gunfire.

With my definition of poptarting, I used ERLL's in the example because that is what I've seen most people use, true you'd get more alpha from Guass/ERPPC's but you also need to lead slightly with them, most people I've seen use the ERLL because of the instant hit accuracy.

[Dagger906]

Noth, on 14 November 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

I did, they broke down to people running the biggest mechs they could with jump jets and just poptart sniping anyone who jumped out of cover. It was not tactical, nor took much thought.

If you can't see the tactics that go on in this game, then it is because you are just running to brawl. I almost never brawl, I maneuver hit and run, sneak, spot, bait, use cover, force people into cover, etc. The only time I brawl is if I'm in a mech I designed to brawl and even then I don't straight up brawl, I flank as best I can. Everything you say doesn't happen, does happen.

And you're getting all that hit and run, sneak, spot, bait, use cover, forcing ppl into cover in 3 minutes? Please, it's run and gun, at varying distances. Just because some other meatshield is in front of you doesn't mean you're playing an intelligent game. And I don't blame the player, I blame the game.

[Noth]

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

And you're getting all that hit and run, sneak, spot, bait, use cover, forcing ppl into cover in 3 minutes? Please, it's run and gun, at varying distances. Just because some other meatshield is in front of you doesn't mean you're playing an intelligent game. And I don't blame the player, I blame the game.

Matches I'm in never end in 3 minutes unless it's a base race (which isn't a zerg brawl either). They typically last 7-10 minutes. They have been lasting longer since the changes to LRMs. Yes, it all happens. If you don't see it then it is because you are just zerg brawling and that is it.

[Dagger906]

Pocket Psycho, on 14 November 2012 - 04:47 PM, said:

With my definition of poptarting, I used ERLL's in the example because that is what I've seen most people use, true you'd get more alpha from Guass/ERPPC's but you also need to lead slightly with them, most people I've seen use the ERLL because of the instant hit accuracy.

Slight lead shouldn't be a problem. The bigger issue is less chance of giving away position of your ECM mech by means of a green tail... Then there's ER PPC's range of 1k vs 800m. These people you see are probably disorganized rookies bunched together. It shouldn't be hard to circle and flank them, even if there's no cover, you can just stay out of 800m, given a bit of patience. Once they're flanked the lot of them are screwed.

[Hatamoto Shi]

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

3rd person first appeared since revision of MW2. Before that, the control scheme doesn't allow for twitch fps anyway, with keyboard only, not even a joystick. Twitch fps only became possible after games gained mouse control. 486 is from the 90s, young compared to Mechwarrior heritage.

In any case, blind spot was never the point. In a proper strategic sim like previous MWs, flanking means moving into position under cover behind your cover, not directly behind you mech point blank. If they managed to flank you, you wouldn've been dead long before they get that close, not that they would want to. MWO has too much twitch and none of the positioning/strategic elements.

Ha ha ha oh boy.

Dagger906, on 14 November 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

First of all, they don't use lasers(alpha too low, rop unnecessarily high), the proper tools for that job are PPC & Gauss, ideally in a ECM mech with triple space energy/projectile/omni slots, such as Gladiator and Black Knight. Missiles are more suitable for flatter maps, instead of this tactic.

Secondly, that's exactly what I said. You're supposed to pick them as they were in the open while moving into cover. Once they're already in cover, you flank them, using cover along the way, minimizing exposed duration. And no, charging in gets you killed. You have to circle around. Yes, it takes strategy, and coordination, and most of all patience, all of which current MWO twitch FirstPersonShooter jocks looking for 3 minute matches lack. This thread is full of such whinners complaining of "popptarters" but can't manage to do the same because they lack beforementioned qualities to play a proper strategic sim like Mechwarrior.

You are right about the small maps but there are still positioning and strategic elements.
And in mechwarrior 3 and 4 where mountain and city maps also so what is your point.
There is not always clear LOS so then your PPC & Gauss are not optimal.
And yes there are people that lack patience but name calling come on.
Just because they play different then you.
If you are so an Elite player you would not have a problem winning every game.
Oooh wait you need TEAM PLAY for that.
So your team don't listen too you?
Or don't you take command.
I will say it again GOOD TEAM PLAY IS WHAT WINS THE MATCH.
Not the one mech that shoots you in your back.
But seriously i understand your points.
Just don't forget this is a beta and they are still working on it.
And most of your issues will vanish with some bigger maps and playing modes.

Still NO 3rd person view for me.

Edited by Hatamoto Shi, 14 November 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Lazytron]

3rd person is the worst solution to a UI that just needs some love.

It's almost impossible to do a 3rd person view without providing data that a pilot wouldn't reasonably have (sightlines over hills, around corners, etc.) and is an end run around designing an interface that reasonably displays what information a pilot would reasonably have. Locking targets over hills or around corners is fine if you have a scout and some telemetry coming in, but artificially providing an out-of-body viewpoint is pretty unnecessary if the information coming into the cockpit is handled well.

The problem isn't the first person view, it's the HUD. Even knowing that I was getting into a mech "sim" it didn't make a whole lot of sense. It probably took me half a dozen games to figure out the different +/o reticles for arms and torso, not to mention the pips around the crosshairs, how to change weapon groups, or (for the love of god) how to find the full map, or how to read through the gigantic pilot name overlays once I had.

"It's still beta," and there have been improvements in small ways, so I'm not freaking out on that count for the long haul, but lots of times I feel like the current HUD still obscures more information than it provides. Fixing the management of information that people already have would do a lot to obviate the need for 3rd person.

The 3rd person cutaways for knockdown being gone are the best part about the lack of collisions/tripping. 3rd person doesn't "make the game look better," it destroys immersion. Please make the more immersive experience better at communicating the appropriate information rather than using a 3rd person workaround. It will make for a better game overall.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Omar Thirds, on 14 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

My mistake, I was under the impression that it was being added, and giving PGI the benifit of the doubt-that they'd suddenly made a really good descision.

check the poll running right now, check the fire storm they started. Not a good move on the part of PGI.

[Lightfoot]

I'll be brief. 3rd person destroyed the "Mech" gameplay in MW4 due to inherent qualities of mech piloting. MWO will be no different because the gameplay dynamics are roughly identical.

You can't compare MechWarrior to other 3rd person shooters because the dynamics are completely different. Basically, your 'mech is a movement restriction in a dynamic sense. You need to manuver it from point to point to find targets and shoot them. 3rd person relieves most of the need to move the 'mech to find and shoot targets because now you can see over things and jump jet up to the viewpoint to shoot them. You can do this so quickly, that the idea of moving the Mech in any other way becomes absurd. Game broken. Unless you wanted a game where you don't pilot the mech anymore.

[Madidus]

IF the game adds 3rd person I will still give it a chance, however I really feel I will loose the enjoyment I have of the game and will take my gaming time elsewhere.