36 replies to this topic

[Suskis]

After the LRM nerf, this game has changed dramatically.
Every game looks just the same: all the mechs run towards the enemy and start shooting each other in a grand melee combat, like this was another FPS game à la Unreal. Support has become useless thanks to laughable LRM damage, so nobody cares for spotting nor for covering support mechs'back. This is not how Mechwarrior sould be. At least, this is not how Battletech is played. In a match, light mechs should go spotting targets, LRMs should acquire said targets and start softening armors until the medium and heavy mechs arrive. That's why there are mech classes and roles.
I think also the Open Beta has something to do about it. People playing Hawken think this is another fast paced FPS mecha game. No tactics, no coordination, no helping comrades, nothing besides happy triggers. Of course my opinion is against the majority of the players, but still I cannot like the game as it is now.

[The Herrick]

And if we put LRMs back to how they were all games would devolve into 6 cats on either side pelting missiles with 2 jenners lagging through the swarms to 'scout'

At least now you have to aim your weapons.

[Vlad Ward]

Stop playing with randoms and then complaining about a lack of battlefield cooperation and tactics.

[Arcturious]

I still see good LRM boats doing over 1000 damage a game. They have just increased the level of team play required. You can no longer solo 8 people with your LRM's.

Ask people on your team to spot for you. Focus on anyone who gets TAG'd. An enemy marked with a TAG will still take about the same damage as before thanks to increasing the number of missiles that hit.

All the "nerf" did was bring back a little strategy and team work to what should have been a support role, not an 8 mech slaying juggernaut.

I still often run an LRM10 single on my dragon and get more than enough use out of it, and even on my Cat 2x LRM15 are respectable and make the enemy take cover. I don't find them wasted tonnage in the slightest.

[Suskis]

Everyone agrees LRM were overpowered. But, at least, in every match you needed spotters and other mechs keeping brawlers away from LRM carriers.
My point is that the insane amount of nerf LRM have had is obvious, looking at how the matches have changed.

So, what about a middle point between OP and UP? Simply: balanced.

[Grraarrgghh]

Wait who stopped using LRMs other than the people who only used them because they got stupidly buffed for a few days?

Everyone who ran support mechs before still run them.

Terrible pubbies are always going to be terrible.

[Imagine Dragons]

beta missile trajectory rollback was terrible.

However, reducing the damage from 2 to 1.7 seemed more like an apology than actual balance...

I don't use LRMs though...

[Ghost_19Hz]

Yeah it was so extremely awesome before. Match starts, run to cover from LRM's, wait for scouts to lag shield their way around, wait for LRM's to shoot eachother, hope your team had more LRM's, watch the team that had less LRMs and scouts lose. LRM's dictated every battle and every movement of. Now what do we have? brawlers and LRM boats as support and more options for movement on the limited maps? Lame-o boring cut throat aiming weapons and heat management and worry about ammo? I wish we could go back in time to the glory days of sitting behind the hill and skillfully launching LRM's while having to hold our reticle's in the general area of the enemy!

[Roughneck45]

The real problem was the artemis arc. Cover didnt work against them anymore. The full 2.0 damage was a bit much as well.

However. 1.7 is too low IMO. 1.8 or 1.85 would be much more balanced.

When a mech can charge straight at an LRM boat over an open field without worry of being too damaged by the time they get there to kill the LRM boat, something should be done. It needs to be a support weapon, but it should also be able to defend itself in ideal situations for the weapon.

[Imagine Dragons]

Artemis affecting the arc was not intended, Artemis was only intended to affect missile clustering...

[Dakkath]

Roughneck45, on 14 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

When a mech can charge straight at an LRM boat over an open field without worry of being too damaged by the time they get there to kill the LRM boat, something should be done. It needs to be a support weapon, but it should also be able to defend itself in ideal situations for the weapon.

That's just a product of double armor.

Also, I think that LRM velocity needs to be increased and the damage "rolls" need to be put back to table top values. I.e No reduced chance to hit the head moreso than it already was.


LRM damage in TT was 1, in MWO its 1.7, PLUS you get more ammo per ton and more range. I think the damage part is balanced.

Edited by Dakkath, 14 November 2012 - 01:48 PM.

[EtherDragon]

Vlad Ward, on 14 November 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Stop playing with randoms and then complaining about a lack of battlefield cooperation and tactics.

Cutting out those who want to PUG removes more than 50% of the player base. I would not recommend this as a solid marketting strategy.

Roughneck45, on 14 November 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The real problem was the artemis arc. Cover didnt work against them anymore. The full 2.0 damage was a bit much as well.

However. 1.7 is too low IMO. 1.8 or 1.85 would be much more balanced.

When a mech can charge straight at an LRM boat over an open field without worry of being too damaged by the time they get there to kill the LRM boat, something should be done. It needs to be a support weapon, but it should also be able to defend itself in ideal situations for the weapon.

I think 1.8 is probably the "butter zone" but we need to get the true damage numbers showing at the end of the match before we can be sure. Personal note: I generally do pretty good in my LRM Boat Cat, I just have to play it differently than I did before.

P.S. I like even numbers per missile because it makes LRM5s and 15s do a full integer of damage per volley. Right now we got fractions (LRM5 does 8.5 damage - it looks "ugly").

Edited by EtherDragon, 14 November 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[xenoglyph]

My Atlas RS with 4xLL and LRM20 + LRM15 makes pretty good use of LRMs. The lasers alone are enough to get kills, but I can decimate mechs quickly when I engage them directly at 300-500 yards. Atlases especially don't stand a chance. Soften them up with missiles and take out whichever side torso is damaged most. After that it's all downhill for them.

I usually have 4xLL + Gauss on this build, but the LRMs are nice for approaching lights that I struggle to hit with the Gauss.

Edited by xenoglyph, 14 November 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

EtherDragon, on 14 November 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Cutting out those who want to PUG removes more than 50% of the player base. I would not recommend this as a solid marketting strategy.

I didn't say stop pugging.

I said stop pugging and then turning around and complaining about a lack of cooperation and tactics.

I pug about 50% of my games, but I know what to expect from them going in.

[OpCentar]

Now you need Artemis+TAG to be effective or really stupid enemy pilots who stand in the open while you fire 400 missiles (on average) to take them down.

And don't get me started on LRM20s, for their tonnage they are simply broken as their missile spread is so big you just waste ammo with every volley until you overheat.

Buff damage back to 2.0 or reduce the spread. Speed and impact trajectories are fine.

[Roughneck45]

Dakkath, on 14 November 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

That's just a product of double armor.

Also, I think that LRM velocity needs to be increased and the damage "rolls" need to be put back to table top values. I.e No reduced chance to hit the head moreso than it already was.


LRM damage in TT was 1, in MWO its 1.7, PLUS you get more ammo per ton and more range. I think the damage part is balanced.

"Double armor" is standard now. Tabletop comparisons are moot. We are balancing mechwarrior online, not battletech tabletop with dice rolls to hit.

Everthing should be inspired from tabletop, but it needs to be balanced for the actual game we play. Not religiously sticking to numbers for tabletops sake.

No tabletop game will ever be balanced when you remove the turn based and random dice roll aspects, and replace it with player input.

Edited by Roughneck45, 14 November 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I don't know about you, but my LRM damage is pretty decent. I'm usually 3rd for my team on the damage chart at the end. The issue is the repair bill. Refilling LRM bins is ridiculously expensive. I can go a match without even being touched but if I ran my missiles empty my repair bill will be over 100k. A fully destroyed Atlas doesn't even cost that much to fix. This is simply stupid.

[xenoglyph]

I don't use Artemis or TAG on my Atlas RS build I'm testing LRMs with. I agree it's hard to hit fast moving targets, and that's the way it should be IMO. I have to choose my targets instead of firing at every red box I see.

However, I do very decent damage to slow movers like Atlases. I may just leave the LRMs on there for a while.

[multiplesanta34]

Quote

When a mech can charge straight at an LRM boat over an open field without worry of being too damaged by the time they get there to kill the LRM boat, something should be done. It needs to be a support weapon, but it should also be able to defend itself in ideal situations for the weapon.

If you aren't boating all, or mostly all, missiles you'll be fine. If you charge a C1 you'll be very softened by the time he uses his 4 ML on you. That's the way it should work IMO. Too often you'll see missile boats having no way to protect themselves in close because they do nothing but pack on missiles and ammo. That's their fault.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

xenoglyph, on 14 November 2012 - 02:02 PM, said:

I don't use Artemis or TAG on my Atlas RS build I'm testing LRMs with. I agree it's hard to hit fast moving targets, and that's the way it should be IMO. I have to choose my targets instead of firing at every red box I see.

However, I do very decent damage to slow movers like Atlases. I may just leave the LRMs on there for a while.

Artemis would help you vs fast moving targets. It speeds up your missiles, getting them to the enemy sooner, and makes them more accurate. Mine don't litter the ground on a running enemy; they go right up his ass. $$$ All it will really cost you, weight wise, is +1 ton per LRM.(So a 7ton LRM 15 becomes 8) But it is definitely worth it if you're just going to missilerack at long range all game. Once you try them out... you'll never go back.