65 replies to this topic

[Tigerhawk71]

I don't care so much about people standing back to defend the base.

Light mechs can go back. Scouting information should mean nobody heavy slips by unnoticed.

What i DO care about is when the base is under attack and people DON'T STAND ON THE ******* POINT.

STAND ON IT. I don't care if you take damage. STOP THE CAPTURE BY BEING INSIDE THE SQUARE, PEOPLE.

[Lin Shai]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

There are two ways to play this game successfully.

1) deathball rush to the enemy's red square. On overheat valley, this sometimes means you won't even see the other team.
2) setup a deathball defense in the middle of the level.

There's no reason to go back to your own base, ever. Better to rush your fast mechs into theirs, to outcap them.

And shockingly ... you whine continuously on the forums about various things ...

Maybe if you learned the most basic of tactics in the game, you wouldn't.

[Taizan]

If you have 4FPS bug, don't disconnect, move to the base, back to wall, else wise there is no real reason to plant yourself on the base. Hanging around the base vicinity at the beginning until enemy vector of approach is known is fine. During the match lights & meds need to go check.

[RAM]

Onyx Rain, on 14 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

I think it is a natural instinct for people to think this is a good strategy but OVERALL it is not optimal.

So I disagree, and say...

Generally no...it works out well sometimes if the rest of your team otherwise fails to respond quickly like they should, but it is not optimal to have one or more of your mechs out of the fight when the other team will very likely have all of their mechs in the fight.

Ignoring that there are strategies that defending is useful, many PuG teams simply do not have a great composition to simultaneously conductive offensive & defensive actions. In a PuG 9 times out of 10 the rest of the team DOES fail – then they blame premades…

Despite coordination, very rarely is a full 8 mechs able to bring their full fire to bear. As such, not having all mechs there is less of an issue.

Ultimately, defending may not be optimal (and that is debatable), but it is viable.

Cheers!


RAM
ELH

[Krivvan]

Bogus, on 14 November 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

I see both sides to this. A strong defense can often take one or more lag jenners out of action before they've done anything useful,

Actually, a strong defense can't because any smarter light mech would know to just ignore the defender and lend its firepower to the main line.

RAM, on 15 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Ignoring that there are strategies that defending is useful, many PuG teams simply do not have a great composition to simultaneously conductive offensive & defensive actions. In a PuG 9 times out of 10 the rest of the team DOES fail – then they blame premades…

This is only anecdotal and I have no evidence beyond some of the pugging videos I've uploaded, but PUG groups actually usually listen to you to an extent. More than enough to go stop a cap at least. If you find too many PUGs are going back to stop a cap, then you join them and call everyone else back to prevent the team from being split, even if it's just a single Jenner or something.

You'd be surprised at how effective PUG teams are when you actually take the lead in a non-rude manner.

There is hardly ever a need to leave someone behind even in a PUG game. Even less of a need if you yourself use a light mech.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

The most successful strategy is to advance in such a way that return to the base is possible. The first responder to an under attack base should be your scout who should then let you know if further action is required. It sometimes is best to also have a sniping medium head back to the base as well since they're agile enough to shoot at/hit scouts. If more than a couple make it to your base your scout is asleep at the wheel and you probably just got rushed.

[Krivvan]

TruePoindexter, on 15 November 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

The most successful strategy is to advance in such a way that return to the base is possible.

Good places for this are E7 or D5 on Forest Colony, F6 or a bit behind the ridge on Frozen City, F6 or the G line behind the platform on River City and the ridge (not inside) the caldera on Caustic Valley.

[Vassago Rain]

Lin Shai, on 15 November 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

And shockingly ... you whine continuously on the forums about various things ...

Maybe if you learned the most basic of tactics in the game, you wouldn't.

What tactics? There's no other way to play this game, unless you want to pretend there's more depth than there really is.

[Krivvan]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

What tactics? There's no other way to play this game, unless you want to pretend there's more depth than there really is.

And this is why you apparently do so terrible I suppose.

Let's look at another game just so there's a clearer view of this. Take Halo for example. A regular pug game in Halo is generally devoid of tactics beyond simply run up and kill things. But an actual organized Team vs Team game in Halo features tactics deep enough to fuel a popular competitive tournament scene.

Or if console shooters aren't your thing, look at Quake. A typical game may involve just "run around shooting things" but any competitive player can tell you that the game is much more tactically deep than that.

Or hell, look at Starcraft. People complain that the game has no strategic depth and it's just "follow these builds and attack-move to the enemy base" and yes, you can win games like that against terrible people, yet there obviously is strategic depth.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 15 November 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

And this is why you apparently do so terrible I suppose.

Let's look at another game just so there's a clearer view of this. Take Halo for example. A regular pug game in Halo is generally devoid of tactics beyond simply run up and kill things. But an actual organized Team vs Team game in Halo features tactics deep enough to fuel a popular competitive tournament scene.

Let's not look at other games, and let's instead focus on capture the red square, which is the only game mode in mechwarrior online.

[Krivvan]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Let's not look at other games, and let's instead focus on capture the red square, which is the only game mode in mechwarrior online.

And in my Halo example the only competitive game mode is even less complicated; it's "kill everyone on the other team".

Or Starcraft. The only game mode is "kill the other player".

Adding more game modes isn't going to add tactical depth. A lack of game modes doesn't inherently cause a lack of tactical depth. Simple deathmatch has tactical depth as long as you are willing to use that, which you clearly are not.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 05:11 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 15 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

And in my Halo example the only competitive game mode is even less complicated; it's "kill everyone on the other team".

So tell me how I do this pr0 1337 XxXnoscope420XxX tactical gameplay of capture the red square.

[TruePoindexter]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

So tell me how I do this pr0 1337 XxXnoscope420XxX tactical gameplay of capture the red square.

Well in my Jenner I like to bait the enemy to the middle of the map making it look like we're fighting. Then I leave them there and cap.

[Krivvan]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

So tell me how I do this pr0 1337 XxXnoscope420XxX tactical gameplay of capture the red square.

Ok, for your benefit I will dumb it down to a typical PUG game.

a) Make a count of what mechs are on your team and their relative speeds, this will determine your course of action in the future.

b ) If there are is at least one fast scouting mech, offensive and reactive playstyles become possible. Proceed to Branch A. If there are no fast mechs whatsoever on your team then proceed to Branch B.

Branch A:

c) Heavier and slower mechs set up in a staging area between the midline and the base in an area that also gives cover from snipers and missiles depending on the map.

d) Faster mechs should scout passageways that are smaller which would give an enemy team inside of it a disadvantage. Engage enemy scouts if you are confident or they are not well set-up to fight another light, immediately retreat if you are not confident (but do so in an evasive way, not just running in a straight line).

e) If the scouts encounter no light mechs along the way then it is reasonable that the enemy light mechs are either following the main force or taking the other route. You alert your team to the possibility of a light mech coming another way. You then wait near the enemy base without capping or you move on to determine where the enemy is exactly.

f) Meanwhile the heavier force reacts based on what the scouts find. If the scout has any number above 3 coming by the tunnel (or equivalent passage) then the heavy force should pull back and take defensive positions. The enemies in the tunnel will not be able to engage on an even footing and will lose any battle. If the other half of the enemy team come up from another angle then your light mechs can begin a cap forcing the enemy team to pull back.

Besides a possibility like that, the enemy team has 2 main possible actions. They will either defend and hold their position behind the ridge, or they will charge as one. If they charge then the scout should begin the cap and force the enemy team to either halt or send its lighter mechs back. If they defend then the scout should not cap.

If they defend, your team should spend a minute to 3 minutes simply waiting for the enemy to make a mistake, no reason to push ahead if the other team gets inpatient. If they maintain discipline and hold their line, then you take advantage of that fact. The scout on your team should locate enemy scouts and keep them away from side passages, the best possible outcome is to kill the enemy scout. Killing all enemy scouts removes all offensive options that the enemy team can take. Once you make sure that enemy scouts are not in any position to find your team's position, then your team can hastily take the side passage, exit it fully, then engage the enemy team from an angle where they cannot put all their firepower into a single mech whereas your team can.

Capping should never ever be done unless the enemy team breaks off to go for a cap. Them doing so would be a mistake since your team would be closer to their cap and will win out. The enemy team's only option at this point is a straight fight hoping that their team's individual players are better.

Branch B:

c) Both your team and the enemy team is neutered as to your capabilities to make a proper offense. The first thing you should do is to simply take the best defensive position that is not up against the ridgeline and hold to see if the enemy decides to make an unwise charge. If you are up against a good team, they likely won't.

d) If both teams are playing defensive then one team will have to make a move. If your team is going to make a move then it really depends on what map you're on. We'll use Frozen City as an example. If you are on the open sideyou can go for the risky flank maneuver and send half the team into the tunnel while the other half advances to the ridge line. Have the tunnel team poke out a bit enough to grab the enemy team's attention and then send out the ridge team in a single go. It is essential that very shortly after the ridge team charges that the tunnel team charges too. If they don't, your team will lose.

e) Admittedly, a game without light mechs heavily depends on the skill of individual pilots. If you are not confident in your team's coordination then the best solution is to charge as a single entity, but to do so from slightly off the mid point, such as right of the ridge on Frozen City.


As a general strategem, the most valuable targets on the enemy team in the entire game are their fast scout mechs. Although you shouldn't chase them to the point of breaking up your team, prioritizing your shots of opportunity for them can be helpful. The best possible situation for your team is if your scouts are alive and well whereas theirs are dead. This allows you to force the enemy team to play defensively or split using the cap. If also allows you to maintain awareness of what the enemy team is doing whereas they are blind to your team.


This is only a basic strategy tree based on acting reactively. A team that chooses to be more active will likely take the offense as their initial position.


The basic "everyone goes for a cap" strategy is absolute garbage against any halfway competent team. The other "everyone but a couple people goes for a cap" is even worse since the other team can simply ignore the non-cappers and just kill the capping mechs.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

TruePoindexter, on 15 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

Well in my Jenner I like to bait the enemy to the middle of the map making it look like we're fighting. Then I leave them there and cap.

Okay. I won't fall for your obviously terrible bait, and instead head towards your base as fast as I can, along with the rest of my deathball. You either engage us, or run to our base in response. I do this, because I know how the game works. Alternatively, we setup our deathball in a position where we can engage you, and the bases suddenly don't matter, since you can't pass us without engaging.

Tell me how your awesome pretend tactics are better than my actual tactics. You're building a Leeroy scenario here.

[Orzorn]

Creepy, on 14 November 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

I tend to play the Hunchback and I typically wil loiter around the base for a little bit before moving up to add support fire if things are quiet. It's not an uncommon scenario that support/defense is too far out to halt/delay an enemy cap and sometimes I do find myself overwhelmed with the only real goal being to stay alive long enough for friendlies to complete capture way on the other side of the map.

IMHO, there's no real hard set operating proceedure aside from trying to stay flexible and adaptive.


edit: I should also add, I guess, that I tend to be of the opinion that once units are merged, you're not contributing enough if you aren't maximizing your firepower. Basically if 1/4th of your damage output is long range and you're hanging back without using 3/4 of it with heat to spare, you probably should move up and take advantage of the unused heat and firepower...

I do the very same thing, but usually on River City. I loiter around for a while waiting for everyone to either engage or the enemies to try to move around. Usually, a scout will show up and I'll wipe the floor with them and then go to my allies. If no one shows up in the first two minutes or so, I'll move out.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 15 November 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

Ok, for your benefit I will dumb it down to a typical PUG game.

a) Make a count of what mechs are on your team and their relative speeds, this will determine your course of action in the future.

b ) If there are is at least one fast scouting mech, offensive and reactive playstyles become possible. Proceed to Branch A. If there are no fast mechs whatsoever on your team then proceed to Branch B.

Branch A:

c) Heavier and slower mechs set up in a staging area between the midline and the base in an area that also gives cover from snipers and missiles depending on the map.

d) Faster mechs should scout passageways that are smaller which would give an enemy team inside of it a disadvantage. Engage enemy scouts if you are confident or they are not well set-up to fight another light, immediately retreat if you are not confident (but do so in an evasive way, not just running in a straight line).

e) If the scouts encounter no light mechs along the way then it is reasonable that the enemy light mechs are either following the main force or taking the other route. You alert your team to the possibility of a light mech coming another way. You then wait near the enemy base without capping or you move on to determine where the enemy is exactly.

f) Meanwhile the heavier force reacts based on what the scouts find. If the scout has any number above 3 coming by the tunnel (or equivalent passage) then the heavy force should pull back and take defensive positions. The enemies in the tunnel will not be able to engage on an even footing and will lose any battle. If the other half of the enemy team come up from another angle then your light mechs can begin a cap forcing the enemy team to pull back.

Besides a possibility like that, the enemy team has 2 main possible actions. They will either defend and hold their position behind the ridge, or they will charge as one. If they charge then the scout should begin the cap and force the enemy team to either halt or send its lighter mechs back. If they defend then the scout should not cap.

If they defend, your team should spend a minute to 3 minutes simply waiting for the enemy to make a mistake, no reason to push ahead if the other team gets inpatient. If they maintain discipline and hold their line, then you take advantage of that fact. The scout on your team should locate enemy scouts and keep them away from side passages, the best possible outcome is to kill the enemy scout. Killing all enemy scouts removes all offensive options that the enemy team can take. Once you make sure that enemy scouts are not in any position to find your team's position, then your team can hastily take the side passage, exit it fully, then engage the enemy team from an angle where they cannot put all their firepower into a single mech whereas your team can.

Capping should never ever be done unless the enemy team breaks off to go for a cap. Them doing so would be a mistake since your team would be closer to their cap and will win out. The enemy team's only option at this point is a straight fight hoping that their team's individual players are better.

Branch B:

c) Both your team and the enemy team is neutered as to your capabilities to make a proper offense. The first thing you should do is to simply take the best defensive position that is not up against the ridgeline and hold to see if the enemy decides to make an unwise charge. If you are up against a good team, they likely won't.

d) If both teams are playing defensive then one team will have to make a move. If your team is going to make a move then it really depends on what map you're on. We'll use Frozen City as an example. If you are on the open sideyou can go for the risky flank maneuver and send half the team into the tunnel while the other half advances to the ridge line. Have the tunnel team poke out a bit enough to grab the enemy team's attention and then send out the ridge team in a single go. It is essential that very shortly after the ridge team charges that the tunnel team charges too. If they don't, your team will lose.

e) Admittedly, a game without light mechs heavily depends on the skill of individual pilots. If you are not confident in your team's coordination then the best solution is to charge as a single entity, but to do so from slightly off the mid point, such as right of the ridge on Frozen City.


As a general strategem, the most valuable targets on the enemy team in the entire game are their fast scout mechs. Although you shouldn't chase them to the point of breaking up your team, prioritizing your shots of opportunity for them can be helpful. The best possible situation for your team is if your scouts are alive and well whereas theirs are dead. This allows you to force the enemy team to play defensively or split using the cap. If also allows you to maintain awareness of what the enemy team is doing whereas they are blind to your team.
This is only a basic strategy tree based on acting reactively. A team that chooses to be more active will likely take the offense as their initial position.


The basic "everyone goes for a cap" strategy is absolute garbage against any halfway competent team.

TL;DR, Leeroy Jenkins and his party members, except the guy is serious.

[Krivvan]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Okay. I won't fall for your obviously terrible bait, and instead head towards your base as fast as I can, along with the rest of my deathball.

I think his idea isn't very good, but following this hypothetical game, your team will lose if his team has at least 3 fast light mechs. Your deathball won't be able to reach their base in time and any number of mechs above 3 won't affect how fast you cap. They can simply leave 5 people on their base while sending the 3 light mechs to your base.

A better response by your team would be to pull either your entire team back or just 1-2 scouts depending on how many other fast light mechs are with him. If no one dies then the game resets. If you manage to kill or heavily damage him and his other light mechs then you have gained a significant advantage.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[Krivvan]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

TL;DR, Leeroy Jenkins and his party members, except the guy is serious.

Except the basic strategy tree I have is entirely reactive. A Leeroy Jenkins would be someone who simply deathballs offensively into the enemy team each game and not being reactive at all.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[TruePoindexter]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Okay. I won't fall for your obviously terrible bait, and instead head towards your base as fast as I can, along with the rest of my deathball. You either engage us, or run to our base in response. I do this, because I know how the game works. Alternatively, we setup our deathball in a position where we can engage you, and the bases suddenly don't matter, since you can't pass us without engaging.

Tell me how your awesome pretend tactics are better than my actual tactics. You're building a Leeroy scenario here.

It was a facetious and overly simplistic example. Please see Krivvan's very well thought out tactical analysis.