53 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

Going into this rant, I have to make one thing clear: I really dislike Dark Age. On every level. I dislike the basic rules; I dislike the lack of detail, I dislike the fact it plays closer to a card game than a war game. I dislike the plot, I dislike the Jihad, I hate the characters, I hate the new factions and I hate the art style. I'm also going to assume I'm not alone.

This is not directed at people who got their first experience with Dark Age. I'm glad you're here. I hope you get to see what made so many of us love this universe and follow it for literal decades (or already have) as you roll back in the timeline. So again, no ill will towards the players. In fact, I'll even say that Dark Age probably wasn't an horrendous game - just so so - but it was an horrendous BattleTech game.

Now that this is all out of the way - let me jump back to the point of this rant. Once upon a time, WizKids was a company founded by an ex-FASA founder determined to re-invent FASA games into a hybrid of wargame and card game. They did this for Crimson Skies and BattleTech at the least, and I believe there were plans (action?) to do it for Shadow Run. The problem is that while the newer IPs were just starting to get established (but I have a feeling got damaged in the process as well; I can't say for sure), BattleTech was a universe with a lot of history and a lot of lore.

So they decided the best course of action was to throw it out and get a fresh start by jumping the timeline forward.. while the main game was still running. I'm not opposed to this idea entirely; it does allow for new characters to show up, the setting to radically change, etc. while still retaining the universe we all know and love. This plan went to total hell.

The problems are many but obvious; they started the major events that changed the timeline way too soon after the end of the civil war, meaning massive back story was needed to bring players up to date; they didn't jump the timeline far enough, meaning descendants of previous main characters were now major players, something that had already been done once before (Don't even get me started on the *removed* clone baby). They were at once deciding to burn down everything we liked about the universe by isolating the new game setting from the rest of the galaxy, while at the same time afraid to touch it, leaving all the major houses surrounding this new "Republic of the Sphere" apparently unwilling to just step in and obliterate a completely disarmed ex-Chaos March. In short, if you got into Dark Age fresh, you'd be confused; if you got in as a veteran, odds are you'd just be pissed off.

Anyway, long story short: Newcomers didn't have it set right with them and classic fans for the most part probably feel like I do: The new systems and over simplifications ruined the game and the fiction was all but horrendous. The word "abomination" gets thrown around a lot, but honestly, it kind of sticks here. Long story short, the game died.

Now to back up again. While the FASA situation was happening, a new company called Catalyst games was able to step in and resume production of Classic BattleTech. This means new rulebooks, new art, new TROs - some of the very newest stuff pretty well done. Everyone was very happy to see that no, their favorite universe wasn't extinct. However, one problem - the fact they were now under direct contract to link CBT into Dark Ages, so one could feasibly play CBT all the way to the Dark Age timeline and beyond. This leads to the point of this post: We're now riding a universe that's been rail roaded into linking up with a completely dead, failed game. I think the sheer problems with that statement really explain why I'm writing this.

In summary, I know the writing took some hits just after the civil war started; the novels went from politics to non-stop fights that sounded like written summaries of MechWarrior matches, characters turned so black & white they belonged in Disney films and suddenly the Lyrans went from aristocratic merchants more concerned with parties to blood thirsty serial killers because their leader wanted to make a new coat out of puppies while cackling with glee wanted to take over FedCom. But nothing at all could have prepared us for the end of the civil war (and an era) nor the start of the Jihad, which had been building up for a long time as a shadowy organization only to suddenly just show up wildly nuking things with no resistance and an apparent ability to conquer more territory than anybody but the Clans in an even shorter amount of time.

I don't know exactly what to do about it. When MechWarrior Online was first announced (talking 3024) and threw the word "reboot" around I was relieved. I think that's exactly what we need. We don't need to clear the slate all the way story wise; it was a good setup before and still is. I love MWO being set in 3049 and think it's a good option (along with 3058) to jump back to and play everything differently from that point. Maybe make some radical changes right off the bat to clear it up to players that no, things were not going the same way this time. Something as simple as having Victor Davion get his cockpit caved in for leading the charge and Katrina's scheme fail right off the bat, changing the course of the entire universe while clearing room for new baggage-free characters that actually constitute a reboot. Hire some good writers and actually pay them this time, basically.

I think the game system (talking Table Top here) could use a serious retooling and modernizing, sure. It's got lots of flaws that have been solved by later war games; some weapons need balance changes here and there, and it'd be nice to get completely in the clear artwork for every single 'mech in the game as canon.

All in all, that's the only solution I have. I haven't run into a single CBT fan who likes anything added after 3070 at the latest game wise, or long before that story wise. A lot of the new equipment (Plasma Rifles? HAGs?) is just plain silly and a lot of the art/concepts before the most recent books got pretty absurd (Rottweiler armor where infantrymen are running around on fall fours carrying their rations in their mouth.. really??) and I'd be entirely alright with nuking all of it. Redesigns or re-imaginings of fan favorites added after this cut-off could be brought back in the game earlier, free from previous timeline commitments.

Long story short, I love BattleTech and as such, I hate to see the universe as a whole steadily locked into marching towards one long, depressing decline because several years ago bad decisions were made. Again this isn't directed at MWO, because they did do the very smart thing and set this game in 3049, about the perfect setting to make the majority happy (all the nice new techs and Clans - something I think is important despite some hating them - and still at a high point for the game).

That's really my point, though. If this game was set in, say, 3080 I would not be half as excited as I am, no matter how good the gameplay or graphics. I might begrudgingly tolerate it, but nowhere near as much as I do right now. If I go to play a Megamek game, odds are almost 100% we won't be breaking out any tech post 3072 at the absolute latest, and generally then, mostly pre-3062. We definitely won't be playing any campaigns in this period.. and I don't think we're alone.
So yeah, that's the end of my rant. I think CBT could be great again, attract new war gamers and have an interesting politic-heavy fiction set against the backdrops of major 'mech battles. It'd be bonus points if ideas like scarce technology and how low-tech outlaying worlds were got brought back to the forefront, too. (Really, CBT was pretty much Rome meets Firefly before the later writing seemed to forget how bad tech was for every day citizens away from the core). But I'm pretty much 100% positive it won't reach those heights while it keeps slowly, slowly stumbling like a zombie towards the dead-and-buried and very, very aptly named Dark Ages.

[Kezran Vrass]

*removed* clone baby ?

[MrMojoPin]

. . . . . .sorry ran out of coffee

[Volturnus]

Just take solace in the fact that the game won't last long enough to get there

[Steinar Bergstol]

Kezran Vrass, on 26 April 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

*remoevd* clone baby ?

I think he's talking about Katherine Steiner-Davion getting the clanners to make her a test-tube kid from her and Victor Steiner-Davion's DNA. So incest clone baby. Man, the Lyrans really got the shaft, leaderwise, once Katrina and Melissa both had been placed six feet under.

[Verminaard]

I agree, battletech lost ALL interest to me around the 3060's. Mechassault 1/2 were sickening to me lore/story wise, The game play was ok (considering it was an arcade shooter imo). I want to see mechwarrior 2 gameplay and customization return, and a story that doesn't make me lose all interest around 3060. Hopefully they progress in "real time" for the game, aka 3060 will only get here in 11 years, That way I can enjoy the next 11 years in happiness before having to sadly walk away when the story gets insanely bad, and my interest of the timeline dies.

Ps: sorry for any typos/nonsensical sentences, I'm half asleep and really tired.

[Naduk]

bloody well said victor

[The Boneshaman]

The only thing I liked out of the jihad was some of the mechs & vehicles, like the Celestial series Omnis and a few others. DA had some I liked to. I really HATED the lets use work mechs for war idea. "No let’s not take the Abrams MBT to Iraq. Let’s get some Bulldozers, Crain’s and Front-end Loaders slap some MG and AT missiles on them and call it good" I also have mixed feelings about the WOB making Cyborgs.

Edited by The Boneshaman, 26 April 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[Blackfoot]

I think they were trying to reinvent it as the succession wars model kinda. You know, the premise that mechs were these rare valuable machines that were precious. It did not work though. I only read a few of the dark age book and found it hard to get into them. The characters sucked and the plots were stupid, also the clans were neutered and no longer badasses and I didnt like that either. I think it would be great if they just toed out everything from about 3070 onwards and rewrote it all. Pretend that Dark age was just a drunken one-nighter with the fat chick from the bar and be done with it.

[Skoll]

I fully agree with OP.

[WETBLOOD]

the dark age sucked. its an online games let us write the game as we play. that in itself will change the whole game and will lead us in new dir as it is

[DerangedShadow]

I am probably going to get flamed out for saying this and I am in all honesty prepared for it.

I LOVED DARK AGE!

If it was not for the Dark Age, specifically the WizKids miniatures game, I would not have become such a huge fan of the game/genre in general.

I was twelve when I saw the game and wanted it, I know what a kid thing wanting something that looked cool. But after I played a couple games, I started to want to know more about the history of the game, and wouldn't you know it, they had the Dark Age books. I have every single one of them and I enjoyed reading every single one of them.

And the rest is history.

[AdamBaines]

I have never been a Clicky-tech fan, but the Canon of the Dark Age I'm not against. Its not perfect, and growing up with the lush background of 3025 its hard to compare, but I generally feel that people are to harsh when it comes to Dark Age. I remember how I felt with the initial Clan invasion when it happened; I hated it and the clans. I thought it radically changed the game that I loved dearly. But now I like how the clans have fit into the universe.

Where I think the whole Dark Age spin-off when bad was not only did it radically change the universe, but it radically changed how battletech as played. Clicky-tech. You could not even play the new universe the old way because there were no specs for any of the old mechs and etc. So It felt like the old game was being isolated and left behind. Thanks to Catalyst, ClassicBattletech.com, Battlecorps and the like, that did not happen. I feel like that combo of radical universe change and Clicky-tech really turned people off.

I dont think people will ever come to really embrace the DA like we have the Clans, but hopefully we will move on from the disdain and hatred and be able to make the best of it that we can.

[AdamBaines]

DerangedShadow, on 26 April 2012 - 06:44 AM, said:

I am probably going to get flamed out for saying this and I am in all honesty prepared for it.

I LOVED DARK AGE!

If it was not for the Dark Age, specifically the WizKids miniatures game, I would not have become such a huge fan of the game/genre in general.

I was twelve when I saw the game and wanted it, I know what a kid thing wanting something that looked cool. But after I played a couple games, I started to want to know more about the history of the game, and wouldn't you know it, they had the Dark Age books. I have every single one of them and I enjoyed reading every single one of them.

And the rest is history.

I don't think you will get flamed for this. Like the OP says, and especially in your case, its what turned you onto Mechwarrior/Battletech and its all you really knew of the universe at that point. I think he is speaking for most of us who have been around since '88 or so. The the DA can be a frustrating point to many fans who have been around for a long time as it changed so many iconic factions in major ways. I actually in general like it, but I think I'm in the minority of old school fans.

[DirePhoenix]

Personally I felt the "lore" of this game started going to crap with the return of the clans to the Inner Sphere. They completely threw off game balance, and people not following game lore (ie, just playing the game to play the game) had absolutely no reason to not use Clan 'Mechs or Clan equipment in construction rules, and most of them couldn't follow the Clan style of 'Mech fighting anyway. The tech then started to follow this weird arms race where the IS started creating crazy tech that doesn't make sense and then it kept going back and forth to where we now have stupid things like XXL engines, Null-Signature cloaking devices, Industrial TSM (b/c apparently regular TSM wasn't enough) and laser-reflective armor.

I would have much preferred having MWO start way back in 3015 (when the single-player iteration of this game was supposed to be set). That would have players fighting in the midst of the 3rd Succession War, everyone would have basically the same level of tech (and lots of reason to fight), and the Clan Invasion is far enough away to not even be an issue (and possibly even enough time to get retconned from ever happening)

[Arctic Fox]

AdamBaines, on 26 April 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

I have never been a Clicky-tech fan, but the Canon of the Dark Age I'm not against. Its not perfect, and growing up with the lush background of 3025 its hard to compare, but I generally feel that people are to harsh when it comes to Dark Age. I remember how I felt with the initial Clan invasion when it happened; I hated it and the clans. I thought it radically changed the game that I loved dearly. But now I like how the clans have fit into the universe.

Where I think the whole Dark Age spin-off when bad was not only did it radically change the universe, but it radically changed how battletech as played. Clicky-tech. You could not even play the new universe the old way because there were no specs for any of the old mechs and etc. So It felt like the old game was being isolated and left behind. Thanks to Catalyst, ClassicBattletech.com, Battlecorps and the like, that did not happen. I feel like that combo of radical universe change and Clicky-tech really turned people off.

I dont think people will ever come to really embrace the DA like we have the Clans, but hopefully we will move on from the disdain and hatred and be able to make the best of it that we can.

I'll have to mostly agree. Most of the things that are most often complained about, such as the lack of BattleMechs and focus on new factions nobody cares about, seem to be only really present in the first few novels. I've only read a few of the later Dark Age novels, and I've found them to be largely of the same quality as the Classic novels (Even better in some respects, such as the greater emphasis on combined arms warfare and overall gray morality), which is hardly surprising considering the majority of them were written by the very same people.

The complaints about the time skip and related changes to the universe are understandable, and I do think that I would've liked things more if the timeline had progressed normally instead of skipping forward, but I find that I'm having much less problems with that now that the BattleTech timeline is catching up with the Dark Age and explaining how these changes happened.

[Jawbreaker6]

First may I say: TESTIFY BROTHER!!


Secondly: I got my intro by way of MC1 and a lot of time down range in my hummer with nothing to do but watch a valley for tanks and swap book with the other LP/OP's. So it appealed to me in the way a guy involved in mechanized warfare can appreciate.

I mentioned something about the DA timeline in another post and how it was ill contrived, poorly implimented and relied on the "They'll take what we give'm" mentality. It swiftly turned into a hypothetical discussion that equated to "How many angels can dance on the head of pin." kind ot thing.
My opinions being based in a lifetime of military experience and their opinions based on some poorly written fiction.

Not that BT was highbrow stuff anyway. I mean, really? Knights of the Inner Sphere, Sun Tzu Liao? The list goes on and on. I understand what DA was about. It was about turning the game back into the beer and pretzels, table top game one could play with some buds in a hour or two. Not something akin to a three-day Red Bull powered D&D bender with battalions of mechs taking hours per turn to move and fight.
I hated those sessions and found myself NOT want to play because the guys I was with wanted to play that way.
Yeah, I weapons to clean, trucks to service and soldiers to PT the crap out of...

So the DA idea of reducing mech volume and adding the grubby/ road warrior flavor back to the game was a good idea to me; lance on lance was the most fun I ever had.

Fast forward: A pair of ruined knees and crunched discs has put me out of the military stuff and into a new career powered by the english language and a major in creative writing.

THE DA time line relied on us taking what we were given like chumps. Like intelligent people are going to swallow that two-bit claptrap fiction. The catagorical imperative of good writing is: assume your reader has a brain and isn't in the mood to handed crud, even if it has a bow on and its served on the back of a REALLY COOL looking Atlas and some John Deer looking half-breed machine brisling with MGs.

All it seemed to manage to do was alienate us old farts (who weren't spending enough to give them a profit) and create game that didn't take hold with their target group (12-15 year olds).

Essentially they cut their own throats.

I just thank god crews like the MWO guys are willing to take the risk and I plan on supporting these guys as much as I can. Meanwhile I'm going to pray that the DA thing is not only avoided all together but that someone with some operating brain cells does a DA Redo and comes up with a way to recreate that gritty universe but not have it rely on us being stupid in order to swallow it.

Edited by Jawbreaker6, 26 April 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[AdamBaines]

Sorry for the additional posts but this subject is very interesting to me being a long time fan.....

I have thought about this some more, and you know, sometimes it good to be late to the party. And what I mean by that statement is, you can enjoy and appreciate the totality of something that has been developed and created over a long period of time in one grand shot. Many of the DA bashes point to things like weird time jumps, trying to cram in a lot of events in a short period of time (which is all true) and the general "dumbing down" of the game to say why they think it stinks. Also people don't like change. They like what they like. Start adding something and low and behold it is no longer what you loved 10+ year. I get that way sometimes too when I view some of these redesigns, but I have to check myself and make myself open up my perspective a bit. Sometimes that works, sometimes it does not. Just like everyone else, I like what I like :-) The person who was just now introduced to Mechwarrior and the DA know only of the new stuff like Plasma Riffles and HAG so they dig it. Others of use look at that and say "What the F is that crap?". The era PGI picked, I think, was a good balance for everyone. No one is perfectly happy, but then again most people wont get to PO'ed either as this time frame has a little of something for everyone. And its something to build on. If this is successful, I'm sure they will do what all the major franchises have done and jump around in time to explore other gaming possibilities in the Btech universe.

Ok........I think I'm done now........

[Grendel408]

Ouch... a little harsh there dude? I know Dark Age wasn't for everyone, but if you look back at all the history and lore in BattleTech you'd notice that there are drastic changes throughout the timeline... from the Terran Alliance to the Hegemony to the original Star League and the Amaris Civil War... the Succession Wars were the grind down of the Great Houses to a point where the 3025 era and the TT game originally took place. The introduction of the Clans brought a whole new aspect on the game, including new tech levels, 'Mechs, etc. Quite an upset in the power balance, but the Inner Sphere bounced back quick (like humanity usually does) and fought fire with fire. Then came all the turmoil from 3050 through 3067 which was another interstellar conflict much like the Succession Wars (smaller scale)... the ending of the Clan Invasion, the beginning of the FedCom Civil War and many more conflicts mixed into it... then the WoB (which we all knew were plotting and scheming... admit it), so it was only right that the WoB caused a war on the scale of The Usurper doped up on crack cause they needed to throw a temper tantrum.

Don't get me wrong... I've been hooked on the Btech universe since about '95 when I was introduced to MW2. Then I got my hands on the novels, source books, figures, etc and I can't tell you the amount of money I spent on the overall product (my ex's don't either LOL!). When I learned that BatteTech was almost dead, then revived through WizKids and the new play format changed... I was turned off, but I gave it a chance (since friends were playing HeroClix I thought I could convert them ) and it grew on me... the DA novels helped. Given the backstory was a little shrouded, I had to loosen up my anchor on the original lore all us BT vets know and love. Overall, look in the history of BattleTech and you'll notice that shake ups are necessary (in any game... look at Warhammer 40K). Changes are needed sometimes so things don't get stagnent, plus you also have to consider they were also trying to target a newer generation of players... which some turned their attentions later to the lore we love.

Yeah... don't get me wrong, sometimes changes can be bad, but think of it this way folks: We're going to be playing in a 1:1 timeframe from pre-Clan invasion from released material so far... We may not see the Unseen 'Mechs, but we might get a redesigned version of them... will folks hate on these? Most likely, but obviously they can't use the original ones owned by Harmony Gold. I'm perfectly happy with the Devs choice in their path with MWO and can't wait to play in events I read through some 75+ novels and source books.

What I truly want to see... those who choose to be Clansmen learn the rules of combat Clans follow (zellbringen) and honor their methods while us Spheroids take advantage of you're inferior thoughts on combat (cause war isn't supposed to be fair despite Clan combat philosophy).

[Kifferson von doober]

Reading through Dark Age fiction now, gotta say its a bit of an adjustment. I'm on book 8 and it appears to be improving a bit (or i'm just getting used to it) But i think more detail on the jihad is needed. Ooh Devlin Stone saved us all then died but Victor steiner Davion is still knocking around!?! Feels like a weird jump. Still MWO is gonna have to last a good few years for any of the Dark Age problems to matter so its all good.