93 replies to this topic

[Arcadian Xero]

Sevaradan, on 15 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

IMO PGI should be focusing on issues like netcode,or the lack of map variety which negatively impact the entire player base not minor issues that impact a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Possibly support for the visially deficient can be added later but in my oppinion there are much mroe pressing issues which need to be addressed first.

You should be quiet. Being colorblind is a disability, and if someone REALLY wanted to press the issue they could say that PGI is discriminating against people with disabilities. Doesn't even have to be true, but it would be a whole lot of bad press for them, and frankly they are getting enough bad press.

And for you to come in here and tell people, with a legitimate issue playing the game due to a physical disability, that their issues aren't important is completely unacceptable. You are an *******.

[Ghogiel]

Arcadian Xero, on 15 November 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

You should be quiet. Being colorblind is a disability, and if someone REALLY wanted to press the issue they could say that PGI is discriminating against people with disabilities. Doesn't even have to be true, but it would be a whole lot of bad press for them, and frankly they are getting enough bad press.

And for you to come in here and tell people, with a legitimate issue playing the game due to a physical disability, that their issues aren't important is completely unacceptable. You are an *******.

So it's a disability now? Last time this came up in the hud of another game it was an evolutionary advantage to do with carnivores and superior hunting vision or something like that.

[Velba]

I'd like to point out that even though your color blind you DO have a Hue and gamma control, at least in one capacity or another. You cant turn on a colorblind person mode? I have a feeling if you tried hard enough you could make it work.

[geek]

Arcadian Xero, on 15 November 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

You should be quiet. Being colorblind is a disability, and if someone REALLY wanted to press the issue they could say that PGI is discriminating against people with disabilities. Doesn't even have to be true, but it would be a whole lot of bad press for them, and frankly they are getting enough bad press.

And for you to come in here and tell people, with a legitimate issue playing the game due to a physical disability, that their issues aren't important is completely unacceptable. You are an *******.

This is overboard.

Ghogiel, on 15 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

So it's a disability now? Last time this came up in the hud of another game it was an evolutionary advantage to do with carnivores and superior hunting vision or something like that.

Disability
3. anything that disables or puts one at a disadvantage

So yea it technically is. Not that I define myself that way.

Velba, on 15 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I'd like to point out that even though your color blind you DO have a Hue and gamma control, at least in one capacity or another. You cant turn on a colorblind person mode? I have a feeling if you tried hard enough you could make it work.

This has been suggested. Thank you, I will try this tomarrow.

[Arcadian Xero]

Disability was what came to mind at the time of the post.

Ghogiel, on 15 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

So it's a disability now? Last time this came up in the hud of another game it was an evolutionary advantage to do with carnivores and superior hunting vision or something like that.

Yeah... back when that mattered.

[CannonFodder86]

geek, on 15 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

This has been suggested. Thank you, I will try this tomarrow.

let us know how that works out.

Ghogiel, on 15 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

So it's a disability now? Last time this came up in the hud of another game it was an evolutionary advantage to do with carnivores and superior hunting vision or something like that.

Color blindness would actually let us detect prey/predators in the wilderness slightly quicker than people with normal vision because some camo relies on color blending to environment. Which wouldnt work on everyone. So evolutionary it would have given those that could see through the camo sooner an edge in survival. Luckily humans are social creature so you only needed one or two in a hunting party to alert the rest of the danger or potential meal.

and even though it is technically a disability, most people who have it hate to think of it that way(myself included). It's not like we need handicap parking, assistant dog, or a crutch. Most can live a normal life, and some might not even realize they have it until very late in life.

[Sevaradan]

I apologize for my long absence from this thread, I had to sleep and stuff, but I am back at work and ready to continue providing positive, constructive conversation in this discussion.

CannonFodder86, on 16 November 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

It's not like we need handicap parking, assistant dog, or a crutch.

Exactly whats being asked for (with a special color scheme etc). Sorry, but there's much more pressing stuff for PGI to spend their time fixing/improving (or breaking...) especially when there's an easy work around that's been mentioned here and in the various other threads on this. The paper doll being hard to read isn't game breaking and doesn't make it impossible for you to play the game.


Edit to fix teh grammars.

Edited by Sevaradan, 16 November 2012 - 11:33 AM.

[Krazzee]

Many games have support for the colorblind, and I completely agree MWO should have it to help. I am appalled at the vehement reaction of people shooting this idea down. I'm not colorblind, but I can sympathize with them that it must make things difficult.

"Hey, focus on that Red Atlas."
"...You're an *******, Steve."

[Sevaradan]

Krazzee, on 16 November 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Many games have support for the colorblind, and I completely agree MWO should have it to help. I am appalled at the vehement reaction of people shooting this idea down. I'm not colorblind, but I can sympathize with them that it must make things difficult.

"Hey, focus on that Red Atlas."
"...You're an *******, Steve."

You may note if you actually read my posts I'm not against there EVENTUALLY being a colorblind mode, and sympathize with their plight (it must kinda suck...) but there are more important things that PGI needs to fix first such as netcode, more mechs, more maps etc.

Edited by Sevaradan, 16 November 2012 - 11:41 AM.

[Skyfaller]

Ghogiel, on 15 November 2012 - 10:18 PM, said:

So it's a disability now? Last time this came up in the hud of another game it was an evolutionary advantage to do with carnivores and superior hunting vision or something like that.

Not precisely. Canines and Felines for example only see in black and white. They are superior carnivores than humans. Their vision is much better than ours to spot movement (they use smell to spot what is not moving).

Primate color vision is the result of depth perception for life on the trees. Color gradients reveal distance as much as size does (this is why color blind people of any type should not be allowed to pilot aircraft). It also assisted our distant ancestors in food collection (mostly insects and fruits).

Velba, on 15 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

I'd like to point out that even though your color blind you DO have a Hue and gamma control, at least in one capacity or another. You cant turn on a colorblind person mode? I have a feeling if you tried hard enough you could make it work.

This does not work very well. Believe me, I've tried almost everything there is out there.

Hue and gamma control changes everything displayed in the screen not specific objects that are displayed (aka, target lock squares/triangles). If I were to change the hue and contrast or use color correction from nvidia/windows settings so that all red colors appear different, the game itself would look like an acid trip. Worse yet, terrain features that I can see would suddenly blur into color spectrum I have trouble seeing.

In some cases it can also be too effective. As I mentioned in another thread about this, in BF2 I used these controls so I could play the game..but the devs of that game had made the soldier avatars in such a way that their outlines had certain colors that when I changed the color scheme in windows/hues the avatars literally, to me, glowed in the dark. Talk about taking easy long range headshots. In Battleground Europe a similar color change would allow me to see tanks hidden in deep cover because the changes made the tank hull color stand out like it was bright pink (not literally but equivalent).

So you see, either way we do it we end up screwed. The color pallettes and terrains also chang from map to map, from weather condition to weather condition in the game.

All this is avoided by a simple icon color selection option and a smarter heat-night vision mode color choices. I think we can all agree that the previous caustic map heat vision worked and the current one makes you wonder how the person that suggested and the person that approved such a change still have a job.

[SirTrollsAlot]

geek, on 15 November 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Any other pilots here colorblind? Are you finding it harder and harder to see?

I have Deuteranopia. It's not that common, but it's not uncommon either.

With each update to the graphics, it's getting harder and harder to see. I've been completely disinterested lately in playing. The old graphics engine with the useless night vision, but very useful heat vision, was perfect for me. It sucked having to see everything in only blue but at least I could make out enemies.

Now, all vision modes make it difficult to see. The green/yellow filter used on everything in Caustic is getting ridiculous. The yellow haze in the lower city (7 line one) in River city is bad as well. If I knew that it wasn't on purpose, I might be offended.

The difference in the armor status hud screen is really bad as well. I have no idea from orange to green (save the nominal green) how my armor or internals are doing.

Please Devs, think of accessibility sooner rather then later.

A few good articles/blogs/links on it:

http://blahg.res0l.n...lor-blind-gamer
http://www.colourblindplay.com
http://www.rockpaper...it-in-his-eyes/
http://joshblog.net/...in-game-design/
http://www.destructo...mer-72229.phtml



(in before somebody posts an image that colorblind people can't see making fun of colorblind people)

If that's really how you see objects of color then I see no reason as to why this hinders your ability to play the game. Furthermore, crying and complaining to developers of a "BETA" version of a game that does not support the colorblind is idiotic in and of itself. The reality of it is game developers are put under the same scrutinization as other developers. THIS IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT. They DO NOT need to be A.D.A compliant (Google it if you don't know what that means). There are tons of games out there that do not provide colorblind support. Maybe you should do some research and you would find out that there are many other ways to enable colorblind support OUTSIDE of the game (such as windows or vid card settings) that will change the way the game looks to better suit your needs.

Edited by Ghost, 16 November 2012 - 11:12 PM.
Personal attacks aren't the best way to get a point across.

[Grayzzur]

CannonFodder86, on 16 November 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Color blindness would actually let us detect prey/predators in the wilderness slightly quicker than people with normal vision because some camo relies on color blending to environment. Which wouldnt work on everyone. So evolutionary it would have given those that could see through the camo sooner an edge in survival. Luckily humans are social creature so you only needed one or two in a hunting party to alert the rest of the danger or potential meal.

I think being colorblind actually makes distinguishing the patterns harder, so it's a disadvantage in that situation. At least, for males. For some of the female carriers of the genetic trait, they actually have some sort of super color vision and can distinguish differences between shades that normal vision cannot. Something to do with the redundant eye pigment genes on the extra dangly bit of the 2nd X chromosome that guys don't have.

For people that are colorblind, it is a real problem. Depending on the type of colorblindness, that red target lock reticle can be very hard to see in Forest Colony. It is estimated that 10% of males suffer from colorblindness, so it's really not that small a minority of your gaming population. It's a big enough percentage to pay attention to.

One of the keys is, wherever possible, use secondary indicators that don't rely on color alone. Shape, size, position, etc. HTAL armor bars instead of color outlines. Target reticle that has a shape change, maybe lines coming out of it like a sunburst when it's locked. Allow the primary color of the hud to be user-selectable, perhaps with an outline in white/black feature. On the minimap, perhaps allow for hollow triangle teammates and solid triangle enemies. For the thermal display, perhaps allow a slider where we can adjust the baseline temperature... make caustic valley "look cooler" than it really is in the HUD to get a bigger spread of hues. Not sure if there's a non-color way to address that one.

[CannonFodder86]

Sevaradan, on 16 November 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Exactly whats being asked for (with a special color scheme etc). Sorry, but there's much more pressing stuff for PGI to spend their time fixing/improving (or breaking...) especially when there's an easy work around that's been mentioned here and in the various other threads on this. The paper doll being hard to read isn't game breaking and doesn't make it impossible for you to play the game

Environmental detail and game effect is, admittedly difficult to fix. But a trivia pallet swap for the HUD would do wonders for people with the more rarer types of colorblindness. A it is now the greed HUD and red target indicator blends into the terrain and cockpit. Imagine trying to read text written in white out on white signs while driving full speed. its not impossible, But its damn difficult.

[SirTrollsAlot]

Grayzzur, on 16 November 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

I think being colorblind actually makes distinguishing the patterns harder, so it's a disadvantage in that situation. At least, for males. For some of the female carriers of the genetic trait, they actually have some sort of super color vision and can distinguish differences between shades that normal vision cannot. Something to do with the redundant eye pigment genes on the extra dangly bit of the 2nd X chromosome that guys don't have.

For people that are colorblind, it is a real problem. Depending on the type of colorblindness, that red target lock reticle can be very hard to see in Forest Colony. It is estimated that 10% of males suffer from colorblindness, so it's really not that small a minority of your gaming population. It's a big enough percentage to pay attention to.

One of the keys is, wherever possible, use secondary indicators that don't rely on color alone. Shape, size, position, etc. HTAL armor bars instead of color outlines. Target reticle that has a shape change, maybe lines coming out of it like a sunburst when it's locked. Allow the primary color of the hud to be user-selectable, perhaps with an outline in white/black feature. On the minimap, perhaps allow for hollow triangle teammates and solid triangle enemies. For the thermal display, perhaps allow a slider where we can adjust the baseline temperature... make caustic valley "look cooler" than it really is in the HUD to get a bigger spread of hues. Not sure if there's a non-color way to address that one.

Your logic is flawed, sir.
10% of all males have some form of colorblindness true, but this is not 10% of all males that play video games. This is 10% of ALL males. In reality we are truly looking at maybe 1% or even LESS for male colorblind gamers that are playing MWO.

[Sevaradan]

Grayzzur, on 16 November 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

It is estimated that 10% of males suffer from colorblindness, so it's really not that small a minority of your gaming population. It's a big enough percentage to pay attention to.

Actually, Dichromacy the condition the OP specified only affects ~2.4% of males while they give teh percentage for red green at between 7 and 10% (http://www.colour-bl...ral/prevalence/).

[Grayzzur]

Ok, so you're looking at a number greater than 10% for some form of colorblindness in males. If I'm interpreting that chart right, something like 15-18% of males are affected in some way. That's a much larger group than all the forum complainers!

[Sevaradan]

Incorrect, as Protanopia and Deuteranopia are subsets of Red-Green Colorblindness. and that 7-10% number is INCLUSIVE of them Science does not agree with you Sir!

Also not surprisingly other sources list much lower percentages than the site dedicated to colorblind awareness/tolerances etc

Edited by Sevaradan, 16 November 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[geek]

SirTrollsAlot, on 16 November 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

If that's really how you see objects of color then I see no reason as to why this hinders your ability to play the game. Furthermore, crying and complaining to developers of a "BETA" version of a game that does not support the colorblind is idiotic in and of itself. The reality of it is game developers are put under the same scrutinization as other developers. THIS IS FOR ENTERTAINMENT. They DO NOT need to be A.D.A compliant

Really? I make one thread. Notice I asked devs to add accessibility sooner rather then later.

Tell me what these external settings are, I tried the nvidia color thing and it wasn't a big help What else can I do since you know?

[Sevaradan]

geek, on 16 November 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

What else can I do since you know?

http://www.colour-bl...solutions/cure/ apparently they make corrective lenses

Apparently, you didn't ask Google.

Edited by Sevaradan, 16 November 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[geek]

Sevaradan, on 16 November 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

http://www.colour-bl...solutions/cure/ apparently they make corrective lenses

Apparently, you didn't ask Google.

Wow that looks like a scam.