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The Real Reason Behind Your Repair&rearm Bill.


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#1 ArmyOfWon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:59 AM

It's generally accepted that the larger Mechs, your heavies, your assaults, run much more expensively than your lights. This isn't an argument that the running costs should be the same (I don't believe that they should be totally equal, but certainly not the discrepancy we have now), but this is an argument as to *why* the costs are so much more.

People have pointed to XL engines having high maintenance costs, but the majority of your repair bill will come down to two of the four check boxes on your list: Armor and Ammo.

AMMO:

Depending upon what loadout you prefer (LRM users have seen this, especially with Artemis. SRMs are insanely expensive to rearm as well) HALF of your R&R will be rearming. Imagine the outcry if you had to purchase your ammo every single time you came out of a battle, instead of the 25% of your ammo.

People have already started getting around this problem, though. They've dropped a heatsink for another ton of ammo, then just taking the free 75%. THIS SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. There should be no reason in which hurting your team (volunteering to lower your maximum possible damage) for personal profit should ever happen. But this is only the tip of the iceberg, for even if you don't rearm, you still have 75% of your ammo, and you still can be effective in your team. But if you don't repair...

ARMOR:

Armor is unexpectedly and unreasonably expensive. One ton of armor (32 points for standard) costs 10k. Just one ton. That's only a third of what the Atlas uses for its front-center torso for stock mechs. If nothing else was damaged in the fight, a cored Atlas would pay 30k just for armor, just for its center torso. Of course, you're in an Atlas. You're the biggest target on the battlefield. Personally, I don't run any Atlases, but if an Atlas were to take proportional damage to my Cent or my Hunch, it would be missing arms (2 tons of armor each), a side torso (2 tons), and other various damage (2 more tons of armor destroyed between head, legs, and back). Total tonnage lost? 11 tons of armor. 110,176 CBills. And that's with standard armor. If the Atlas were to take Ferro (what? Why? Good thing Ferro is terrible compared to the savings of Endo...) that bill would be 219,989 for the armor alone.

Good thing we don't have to pay for 75% of that, but even with 75% free repairs you still have 30k of armor repairs (or 55k for Ferro).

Compared to the Maximum amount of armor on a Jenner (238 points, 7.4 tons), you're only spending half of what the Atlas spends on armor IF EVERY SINGLE POINT OF ARMOR WAS STRIPPED OFF BEFORE YOU DIED.

If you want to know the real reason you see unrepaired mechs on the field, look at the armor cost. If there is a system that rewards people for being incompetent (read: What Communism actually does), people will be incompetent and be rewarded.

If I were to design a system, I would first bring armor and ammo costs down across the board, then I would reward players per match as a function of how armed/repaired they were when they entered the match. If you were 100% rearmed/repaired you get 100% of your earnings. If you were 75% rearmed, you would get 75% of your earnings. If you were 75% repaired, you would only get 50% of your earnings.

Rewarding players for mediocrity will only result in mediocrity.

*Edit: Grammar

*Note: I'm not saying that XLs aren't expensive to field (I just landed a 46k repair bill on my engine and I *didn't* die), just that Armor and Ammo is what really hurts the team when you don't repair.

Edited by ArmyOfWon, 13 November 2012 - 10:12 AM.


#2 Scratx

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:07 AM

In regards to missile ammo, the munitions are excessively priced even for 75% free reload. That's why people exploit the free reloads ... they don't really have a choice if they run a missile boat.

Only reason I can afford a non-Artemis full missile boat Catapult at all is my W/L rate combined with premium. Take one out and I'd have to think twice. (and frankly I don't really play my C4 much)

And my C1 with 4 tons of Artemis LRMs costs 60k to rearm. Ow. It's not really worth it. Again, if not the W/L ratio...


Cutting down on earnings based on rearm/repair state is not the solution if the root causes of the problem still remain. Give us sane ammunition prices for missile ammo. Ballistics seem fine for the most part, based on the 75% for free...

Or just do what I suggested, drop to 25% for free, cut ballistics cost by 3x, cut missile costs by 5-6x. That should make missile builds viable, no?


Regarding armor ... don't use Ferro-Fibrous. It's not horribly out of whack otherwise. (and FF isn't worth the costs... maybe it should be toned down, maybe not)

#3 General Kaos

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:10 AM

Whoa! DOOOOOOOD. Whatever you are smokin', can I have some?

#4 Dagger6T6

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:13 AM

you're a Communist if you don't repair your mech
Posted Image

Edited by Dagger6T6, 13 November 2012 - 10:14 AM.


#5 ArmyOfWon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:24 AM

View PostDagger6T6, on 13 November 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

you're a Communist if you don't repair your mech
Posted Image


Not to get too political, but tell me, what is the end-all-be-all goal of communism? Is it not "All earnings are distributed evenly throughout the populace?" That everyone is supposed to work towards the good of the society as a whole without regard to personal gain? Earlier in Closed Beta, it really WAS communism. You got a flat rate for being there. Kills, Damage, Assists, they really didn't give you any incentive to actually do anything. This resulted in Suicide runs and afkers. You STILL see these types of behavior, although not as commonly as unarmed/unrepaired mechs.

People will always tend to what is "easiest" and "best" for them. That's why you see Gauss-cats and unarmed mechs. You earn more for less effort than trying to field anything else, compared to people who spend the 100k repair bill and try to run PPCs (I know, I'm rambling and mixing different topics, but the mentality is similar).


View PostScratx, on 13 November 2012 - 10:07 AM, said:


Cutting down on earnings based on rearm/repair state is not the solution if the root causes of the problem still remain. Give us sane ammunition prices for missile ammo. Ballistics seem fine for the most part, based on the 75% for free...



Cutting down earnings was only part 2 of my "best case solution." Part 1, cutting down on cost across the board, is by and far more important than scaling rewards based on risk (or in this case, money spent on repairing, rearming your mech).

Edited by ArmyOfWon, 13 November 2012 - 10:33 AM.


#6 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:58 AM

Quote

[color=#959595]Armor is unexpectedly and unreasonably expensive. One ton of armor (32 points for standard) costs 10k. Just one ton. That's only a third of what the Atlas uses for its front-center torso for stock mechs. If nothing else was damaged in the fight, a cored Atlas would pay 30k just for armor, just for its center torso. Of course, you're in an Atlas. You're the biggest target on the battlefield. Personally, I don't run any Atlases, but if an Atlas were to take proportional damage to my Cent or my Hunch, it would be missing arms (2 tons of armor each), a side torso (2 tons), and other various damage (2 more tons of armor destroyed between head, legs, and back). Total tonnage lost? 11 tons of armor. 110,176 CBills. And that's with standard armor. If the Atlas were to take Ferro (what? Why? Good thing Ferro is terrible compared to the savings of Endo...) that bill would be 219,989 for the armor alone.[/color]
Present day steel costs at most $1500 per ton, and i would support your position if Mech armor was only Steel.
BUT... It is a composite of several different layers of armor, Ablative, and other materials that may in fact add up to 10K per ton.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 November 2012 - 10:58 AM.


#7 Imagine Dragons

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:58 AM

Heaven forbid you pay more to R&R an Abrams Atlas than a Humvee Hunchback...

#8 ArmyOfWon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:59 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Present day steel costs at most $1500 per ton, and i would support your position if Mech armor was only Steel.
BUT... It is a composite of several different layers of armor, Ablative, and other materials that may in fact add up to 10K per ton.


I'm all for canon, but right now the fiction should not trump the balance.


View PostXenomorphZZ, on 13 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Heaven forbid you pay more to R&R an Abrams Atlas than a Humvee Hunchback...


Heaven forbid the army drops Abrams Atlas fielding because Humvees Jenners are just as effective at a fraction of the cost. This isn't an argument against completely equating the R&R, this is an argument to make it a sane difference for equal rewards.

Edited by ArmyOfWon, 13 November 2012 - 11:01 AM.


#9 Hayashi

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:01 AM

Rearm costs of LRM20 Artemis boats are 120k. That is, without your Mech dying.

Repair & rearm costs of Gausscats are 70-80k. That is, with your Mech dying.

Both cases are Cats.

...

Don't field LRMs if you have budget constraints.

#10 FerretGR

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:04 AM

View PostArmyOfWon, on 13 November 2012 - 09:59 AM, said:

a system that rewards people for being incompetent (read: What Communism actually does),


Wow, what's next, we blame Obama for 1.4 DHS?

Bringing your ******** politics into this discussion - the height of lame. Get a life and keep that kind of garbage out of here.

#11 Dagger6T6

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

View PostFerretGR, on 13 November 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:


Wow, what's next, we blame Obama for 1.4 DHS?

Bringing your ******** politics into this discussion - the height of lame. Get a life and keep that kind of garbage out of here.


Red mech vs Blue mechs

View PostArmyOfWon, on 13 November 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:


Not to get too political, but tell me, what is the end-all-be-all goal of communism? Is it not "All earnings are distributed evenly throughout the populace?" That everyone is supposed to work towards the good of the society as a whole without regard to personal gain? Earlier in Closed Beta, it really WAS communism. You got a flat rate for being there. Kills, Damage, Assists, they really didn't give you any incentive to actually do anything. This resulted in Suicide runs and afkers. You STILL see these types of behavior, although not as commonly as unarmed/unrepaired mechs.


I have contacted the proper authorities regarding your recent suspicious activity... I'm sure they will wonder why your Atlas is named "the Karl Marx"

#12 PurpleNinja

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:10 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Present day steel costs at most $1500 per ton, and i would support your position if Mech armor was only Steel.
BUT... It is a composite of several different layers of armor, Ablative, and other materials that may in fact add up to 10K per ton.

And I bet every Mechwarrior fight every 15 minutes in fiction.

#13 Scratx

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostHayashi, on 13 November 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

Rearm costs of LRM20 Artemis boats are 120k. That is, without your Mech dying.

Repair & rearm costs of Gausscats are 70-80k. That is, with your Mech dying.

Both cases are Cats.

...

Don't field LRMs if you have budget constraints.


120k? That's just 8 tons of ammo with free 75% reload. My 10t ammo Cat with non-Artemis is 75k. Yet, how much do you get on a lost match without premium?

Exactly. And if you get the mech wasted in the process, the bill only gets worse.


Edit: This is, of course, predicated on the assumption that you actually like to earn C-bills over the long term when using a mech. Some builds will almost always end up being c-bill sinks but no mech variant should be effectively impossible to run for a non-premium account.

How are non-premium players supposed to be able to run a Cat A1 without exploiting the 75% free rearm feature? For that matter, is the price disparity even justifiable considering LRMs are not that efficient a damage dealer to begin with?

And Streaks are more expensive than LRMs ... nor are SRMs considerably cheaper, either.

No, prices are broken for non-Artemis already, Artemis only drives it home. It's effectively a premium account only ammunition if you don't want to exploit free reloads.

Edited by Scratx, 13 November 2012 - 11:18 AM.


#14 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

Sounded like most did... I don't know, how long did it take you to read the combat sequences? :)

#15 PurpleNinja

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Sounded like most did... I don't know, how long did it take you to read the combat sequences? :)

Didn't read any of the fictions, back in my days they're non-existent where I live.
Purchasing the original Battletech box was quite a feat for me, but worth it.
Now that you mention it, will look for some PDFs of the novels.

#16 FerretGR

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostDagger6T6, on 13 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

.


Dagger, I'm derailing this thread to tell you that I love your sig and it was the inspiration for mine... not a direct copy, but I'm sure you can see the influences :)

#17 Imagine Dragons

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:20 AM

View PostArmyOfWon, on 13 November 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Heaven forbid the army drops Abrams Atlas fielding because Humvees Jenners are just as effective at a fraction of the cost. This isn't an argument against completely equating the R&R, this is an argument to make it a sane difference for equal rewards.


Oh, well in that case, nevermind then.

#18 80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:22 AM

People's repairs are so high for 3 simple reasons

1) Missile ammo, and a lot of it!

2) XL engines

3) FF armor

Edited by mwhighlander, 13 November 2012 - 11:22 AM.


#19 Psykosis

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:23 AM

Since I frequently bullet-sponge for my lance when I drop in an Atlas, I'd *love* to be rewarded for tanking damage - seriously... Alas, it's not to be. I'm fiscally punished for taking a buncha hits for the team. /kicksfeet

#20 ArmyOfWon

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 11:32 AM

View PostPsykosis, on 13 November 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Since I frequently bullet-sponge for my lance when I drop in an Atlas, I'd *love* to be rewarded for tanking damage - seriously... Alas, it's not to be. I'm fiscally punished for taking a buncha hits for the team. /kicksfeet


That's the armor cost talkin. Just imagine how much money you would save if you didn't armor up every match. (and still make a cool 70 grand even if you lost!)





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