60 replies to this topic

[Jacmac]

Your poll is borked. The options should be more generic, less opinion. The answers you put up are too narrowly defined and somewhat inflammitory.

But yes, I'm looking forward to teams being separated from solo players. The more separation between voice comm players and non-voice comm players, the better.

Edited by Jacmac, 16 November 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[Agent of Change]

Sarevos, on 16 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

no thats not true at all XD what are you talking about? skilled players pug when their team isnt on so there will always be someone out their teaching others the importance of teamwork and also they will sharpen their skills on each other, learn what works and what doesnt and team work will be discovered even if no one told them...

Some will many won't, most of the people I play with (and especially myself) will either log out of the game or find a random team to take us in if our guys aren't online, that's really not gonna change. I know there are many out there with 0 interest in ever pugging again, I used to only drop solo to test a new build but I won't even do that any more.

I would rather lose in an organized 8 v 8 premade fight than have to deal with all the fuckstickery that is so prevalent in PUG gaming. And phase 2 just further guarantees I won't solo drop because that means i don't even really have a good shot at running into organized teammates or opponents. I know not all pug's do stupid ****, I know there are many good players out there (i respect you and your choice) I know there are a lot of new players (gotta start somewhere) but the system abusers poison the whole pot for me. I'm not against playing with new players and helping them learn (as i spent 2 hours last night doing), but i am not going to risk having my enjoyment of the game destroyed by dropping in pugs if i can at all avoid it.

Edited by Agent of Change, 16 November 2012 - 09:04 AM.

[Guido]

Sarevos, on 16 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

no thats not true at all XD what are you talking about? skilled players pug when their team isnt on so there will always be someone out their teaching others the importance of teamwork and also they will sharpen their skills on each other, learn what works and what doesnt and team work will be discovered even if no one told them...

1 humans arent that stupid
2 no one showed us how to make fire but it got done....

also how do you think many teams get started? with a few people dropping in and finding eachother bearable XD

I've never said that a player won't learn how to play, but that they won't learn how to play as a team. I'm sure phase three will fix some of this, but when does that plan to be implemented? TBD says PGI.

You know as well as I do that the impact of a skilled player isn't enough to change the fight in this game a lot of times. In a purely pug fight, maybe it'd be more of an impact, but that remains to be seen. What I am saying is that the average pug player won't be able to put together a team that will stand a reasonable chance in community warfare in a couple of months.

[wanderer]

Guido, on 16 November 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

The real damage is the separation of skilled players from the community base. Pugs are going to be left behind in a bad way, because they no longer have the challenges that premade units present. With this current condition, community warfare is going to be brutal for any team to create a new unit, because by the time community warfare starts, every premade unit out there will have been extremely practiced and hardened in a fight.

Premades are not a "challenge" to PUGs. The premade uses the PUG for target practice. There's three grades of players in MWO.

1) The real PUGers. These people have to deal with repeated doses of no-team "teams" that require them to function in a vacuum. PUG play is, in fact "anti-team". While basic MWO skills can be developed in these pilots, they will never, ever be able to rely on others as long as they PUG- and that means they won't ever develop actual teamwork skills as long as they remain there, hammering on the "Launch" button without one. PUG players, in MWO terms will always play with one arm tied behind their back and their ankles wrapped together with duct tape.

2) Premades. These are the people who go on TS, form a group in advance of hitting the Launch button, and communicate during matches. They learn to rely on and work with other players. They are what the average MWO player should become.

3) Units. These people play together regularly in voice chat and organize outside of it as well. They're going to end up the nastiest opponents on the field, but regular premades will be competitive with them.

PUGs are so far behind 2) and 3) and will remain as such, because teamwork is required for MWO to function at a given pilot's best levels- in fact, at any real level of effectiveness. You -must- have people you can depend on and communicate with in this game, and the only way PUGs will function is if they end up in their own matches, where everyone is equally undependable and incapable of rational communication. PUG play should never, ever be considered serious attempts at MWO, merely a learning ground from which the PUG player can get themselves into premade play where the actual game starts. In fact, there should be a link on the home page of the client that opens up the

Quote

I'm all for the premade vs premade because I'm not exactly sympathetic to the new player's plight. Everyone was new at some point, and nothing changed in the matchmaker during closed beta, where I started in August, but there were a ton of experienced players already there for me to get shot up by, and I came out just fine. I do see segregation creating a whole slew of problems down the road, though.

What we have to realize is that PUG play as it exists isn't even the "LFG" groups that you see in MMO's like Warcraft. It's literally 8 people in the same area in the loosest definition of "team", doing their own thing while whoever got plopped into the same "team" as the less. And the game benefits the selfish (indeed, the losing) PUGer more than the teamwork PUGer, so teamwork doesn't become a part of the PUG equation.

[Rotaugen]

Penance, on 15 November 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

black people can't play?

move to the back of the mech?

That's not how i roll.

You are the Rosa Parks of Mechwarrior!

[wanderer]

Sarevos, on 16 November 2012 - 08:44 AM, said:

you said "pugs by definition" not "pugs in mwo" if you meant the latter matter over

This is an MWO forum. Pray tell, shall I somehow give the definition of "PUG" for every game from Asheron's Call through Zero Online"?

[Scratx]

GenDread, on 16 November 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

i wonder what PUGs who are still getting steamrolled after the 8 mans come back will use as there new excuse? LOL let me scry into the future..... LRM's are over powered? noooo thats not it .... ahh here we go !! Premades found a way to cheat the system so they can PUGstomp!! yeah thats going to be it .... you heard it here first lol

We actually already heard that before and the funny thing is that there is actually a reliable way to drop two lances together. However, since almost nobody actually does that, it's still nothing more than an excuse, a boogeyman that's comfortable to use to explain your own and your team's failure to even score a single kill.

Almost everytime two teamspeak lances drop together it's actually coincidence. And yeah, that happens.

PGI needs to rewrite the matchmaking algorithm to try to set any groups in the queue on opposing teams whenever possible.

[MagicM0E]

Jordache, on 15 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Do you expect me to believe that a founder who purchased every advantage available really wants a fair fight? I just can't. I got pug stomped all night by premade groups of founders, they bought a leg up, and they love it. Why would they buy an advantage just to nullify it by fighting other people with the same advantages?

Wow, just saw this! What advantage do founders get exactly?

Are you talking about the bonus founder's mechs which are designed to be completely impervious to non-founder weapons? Wait a minute, my founder's mechs take damage just the same as every other mech.

Must be the special paint job the founder's mechs get that makes them impossible to target. Nope, I'm pretty sure I get targeted just the same as everyone else.

I know what it is. As a founder I was the only one that was able to get hold of a Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult and the Atlas. Hang on... other pilots can get them too.

That means it can only be the bonus cbills & XP we get. Yeah... the advantage of paying to reduce the so called 'grind' is really why a lot of Founders 'Pug Stomp' so much. That and the fact that most of the founders really enjoy this TEAM GAME and have invested time, effort and money in becoming good at it. Now you want to criticise us for playing it how it was meant to be played?

Quick... get the Dev's to make it easier for y'all! While you're at it, don't forget to mention that LRM's, Streaks & Gauss Riffles are all OP. Double heat sinks are broken, Jenners run to fast and Hunchbacks should be able to alpha strike 9 medium pulse lasers continually even when stood in the caldara. Did I miss anything?

[Agent of Change]

Scratx, on 16 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

We actually already heard that before and the funny thing is that there is actually a reliable way to drop two lances together. However, since almost nobody actually does that, it's still nothing more than an excuse, a boogeyman that's comfortable to use to explain your own and your team's failure to even score a single kill.

Almost everytime two teamspeak lances drop together it's actually coincidence. And yeah, that happens.

PGI needs to rewrite the matchmaking algorithm to try to set any groups in the queue on opposing teams whenever possible.

We actually try to do this from time to time with two 4 man groups, it works maybe 1 out of 4 times and it's 50 halfty then that we are actually on the same team. But it does allow us to have eight guys in a channel and enjoying a game and talking **** even if we are fighting each other, so for me that fits what i'm looking for in MWO.

[Taizan]

Not in a group/clan/regiment/etc. so I guess I can't join 8 man group MM fights, it will just be further pugging until the whole factions / community warfare thing comes into play.

[CTsai]

Jordache, on 15 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Do you expect me to believe that a founder who purchased every advantage available really wants a fair fight? I just can't. I got pug stomped all night by premade groups of founders, they bought a leg up, and they love it. Why would they buy an advantage just to nullify it by fighting other people with the same advantages?

With that said, all I care about is a segregation option, but if you really want 8 man premades, you should ask pgi for item you could buy that would allow it - I'm sure it would be done by the end of the week.

The ******** is strong in this one.
Seriously bro, IDK why you are hating so much. Founders=\= premades, and premades=\= founders.
There are a lot of founders who pug, and a lot of non founders that do premade.
Besides, founders dont get OPONESHOTEVERYTHINGTURBOLAZORPLASMARIFLE or anything like that.
Sure, the premium time and the founders mech bonuses helps us get the mechs we want faster, but thats about it.
Back on topic, I kinda have mixed feelings about this, most of the time I like to play in groups, 4, 8 doesnt really matter, but sometimes I just wanna play a match or two and I dont feel like joining a group just for that.

But hey, IRRC the 4man+4pug option will still be there alongside pug and 8man

[Agent of Change]

CTsai, on 16 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

The ******** is strong in this one.
Seriously bro, IDK why you are hating so much. Founders=\= premades, and premades=\= founders.
There are a lot of founders who pug, and a lot of non founders that do premade.
Besides, founders dont get OPONESHOTEVERYTHINGTURBOLAZORPLASMARIFLE or anything like that.
Sure, the premium time and the founders mech bonuses helps us get the mechs we want faster, but thats about it.
Back on topic, I kinda have mixed feelings about this, most of the time I like to play in groups, 4, 8 doesnt really matter, but sometimes I just wanna play a match or two and I dont feel like joining a group just for that.

But hey, IRRC the 4man+4pug option will still be there alongside pug and 8man

No man but we do seem to come with an awful lot of common sense and a desire to work with other people, It's kinda like a disease.

Truly we deserve to be reviled for unlocking the game breaking secret of coordination through practice and experience.

Founders Repent! Repent your effective ways!

[Scratx]

Agent of Change, on 16 November 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

We actually try to do this from time to time with two 4 man groups, it works maybe 1 out of 4 times and it's 50 halfty then that we are actually on the same team. But it does allow us to have eight guys in a channel and enjoying a game and talking **** even if we are fighting each other, so for me that fits what i'm looking for in MWO.

Yep, it's only reliable in the sense that it actually works often enough to be worth trying. I don't think it's really a problem.

Agent of Change, on 16 November 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

No man but we do seem to come with an awful lot of common sense and a desire to work with other people, It's kinda like a disease. Truly we deserve to be reviled for unlocking the game breaking secret of coordination through practice and experience. Founders Repent! Repent your effective ways!

Sshhhhhhh... the PUG Inquisition might hear you...

[Comassion]

Jordache, on 15 November 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Do you expect me to believe that a founder who purchased every advantage available really wants a fair fight? I just can't.

Yes. We want a serious challenge.

Quote

I got pug stomped all night by premade groups of founders, they bought a leg up, and they love it. Why would they buy an advantage just to nullify it by fighting other people with the same advantages?

Yes, we want every advantage we can get.


I want to talk to you about serious gameplay - not just in MWO, but in every game - from chess to Call of Duty.

Every game worth playing presents choices to the player. As a player, it is up to me to make those choices. In nearly all cases, some choices are better than others, and it is not always obvious where those choices will lead due to the unknowns.

When you play to win, you focus on making the best choices you can. If you're up against players who don't consider their own choices or the consequences thereof, you will most likely win. There are many reasons players don't play optimally, ranging from simple inexperience, a lack of studying the game, experimentation with new options they haven't seen before, or perhaps they're just playing to have fun - there's any number of legitimate reasons for non-optimal play, but whatever the reason, if you go up against someone focused on victory, then your chances of winning are diminished.

The thing is, when you play to win against people who don't, the game is less exciting because you walk all over your opponent. The chess game can effectively be over by turn 4 as the non-optimal player loses their Queen to a mistake, but continue on for another 20 turns as the rest of it plays out.

That, however, does not mean that we are going to throw away any advantage to accommodate those who don't play at our level. That does them a disservice. They need to learn that their current methods aren't working, and we won't teach them that if we don't crush those methods. Because we play to win, we take every advantage we can get, and we use it. But for exciting games, we want to play against people who do the same thing. Our optimal play vs. their optimal play. If we lose, then we'll learn something ourselves. If we win, it'll be a hard-fought, satisfying victory.

Yes, if we chose our opponents as uncoordinated pugs, that would also be an advantage - but it's the one extra advantage we don't want, specifically because it's a handicap for our opponents rather than something that we earned for ourselves through superior builds or tactics and training.

The need for challenge in games is why Chess Grandmasters do not roll into high school chess clubs every day to increase their win/loss record. Chess Grandmasters also do not intentionally play badly to give a new chess player a 'fair game' (more likely he is teaching the game along the way to improve the skills of the student). They use every trick in their book to win, but they seek out other great chess players to play matches against because they enjoy the challenge.

We stomped pugs because before this, because that was our only option from the Matchmaker (aside from arranged drops, which we did quite often). We are very much looking forward to the 8-man drops because we will enjoy the challenge it offers.

You speak as through we are bullies looking for an easy win, but nothing could be further from the truth or more of an insult to our style of gaming. We will not let you off easily, and if you are uncoordinated we will beat you, but it is because we want to be the best rather than because we want to crush others. Crushing you is simply a side effect of working towards being the best. Once the 8-man drops start, we'll be focused on playing other good teams, and you won't have to worry so much anymore.

Edited by Comassion, 16 November 2012 - 09:35 AM.

[Hikaru Shizuka]

I'm super happy. I don't want anything to do with dedicated pugs, period. I'm quite happy now to find out that I'll never have to play with or against them again.

[Sarevos]

wanderer, on 16 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

This is an MWO forum. Pray tell, shall I somehow give the definition of "PUG" for every game from Asheron's Call through Zero Online"?

saying "by definition" denotes meta thinking about the actual term itself

Guido, on 16 November 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

I've never said that a player won't learn how to play, but that they won't learn how to play as a team. I'm sure phase three will fix some of this, but when does that plan to be implemented? TBD says PGI.

You know as well as I do that the impact of a skilled player isn't enough to change the fight in this game a lot of times. In a purely pug fight, maybe it'd be more of an impact, but that remains to be seen. What I am saying is that the average pug player won't be able to put together a team that will stand a reasonable chance in community warfare in a couple of months.

League of legends solo queue definitely promotes team play

[Sarevos]

Hikaru Shizuka, on 16 November 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

I'm super happy. I don't want anything to do with dedicated pugs, period. I'm quite happy now to find out that I'll never have to play with or against them again.

this is the kind of thing that makes it hard to recruit lol

[Sevaradan]

My units got more than enough ppl at the moment, and have actually stopped actively recruiting. Not that the majority of puggies are worth trying to recruit anyway.

[Viper69]

I am looking forward to running with my friends. However if people think insults from pugs are bad wait till you trash a group of 8 premades. I have seen more premades be sore losers than Pugs in any game. Just wish for a chat disable button so I do not have to look at it.

[Hikaru Shizuka]

Sarevos, on 16 November 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

this is the kind of thing that makes it hard to recruit lol

Fair enough, I should clarify. When I say dedicated pugs I'm referring to those who actively refuse to participate in teamplay. Not just randoms who are open to it and haven't found a group they like yet, but the whiners on the forums who insist that they will never work with others and demand the game be changed to cater to their playstyle.