90 replies to this topic

[JeepStuff]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

No, here's the truth. MM has been implemented gimping the size of a group you can drop with, not because it adds balance. Not because it adds anything to game play value. It was gimped because every time someone gets stomped they ASSUME it's a premie. The MM phases that are being implemented have taken that argument away and dispelled the premie boogeyman myth yet people STILL persist in blaming that on the reason they lost badly.

This is anecdotal evidence, but before the patch most nights I would get on and get stomped 8-0 about half of the time, and while dead I would politely ask in team chat if the other side was a premade, and most of the time (maybe 70-30) the other side would politely say "Yes sir". No animosity from me, no gloating from them. Just the state of the game. It was a frustrating time, but I (and many folks like me) understood that the game is a work in progress, and so we needed to be patient. Then the patch came, and for me, the experience has improved dramatically. I still get stomped, but it's much more rare. Rare enough that it doesn't sap my will to play anymore. I realize that this change, which made the game much more fun for me, also had the effect of making it much less fun for premades. And I'm sorry about that. But as we all know, it's temporary. So my point is, the stomping by premades, in my experience, was a reality and not a myth. I don't blame the premades one bit. But at the same time, I'm happier now that Phase 1 has been implemented -- it was an effective bandaid for me. I hope Phase 2 is an effective bandaid for you until the real MM is implemented.

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I'm sick and tired of being ostracized because I want to play with people I enjoy talking with and dropping with. If you don't want to join a group so be it. Great. Have fun. That's YOUR right. Don't, however, tell me I'm doing it wrong because I DO want to join a group or call me names or make derogatory statements about people who do enjoy socializing while they play.

I agree with every word 100%, and I'm a pug saying the same thing from the other side of the argument. I'm tired of hearing "join a team". I want you to have a great time playing it your way and I want you to let me have a great time playing it my way. We're on the same page here even though we're on different sides of the argument.

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I predict no matter how MM is implemented a good majority of players blaming premies for their losses now will jsut find some new boogeyman to blame or just keep insisting that somehow someway the big ole meanie head premies are conspiring to beat them and wreck their enjoyment of the game.

Very true, but on the other hand, I think the silent majority of pugs are grateful for Phase 1 and now feel that the games are more competitive for our style of play, and we don't blame the occasional routes on premade boogeymen. We blame it on overpowered LRM toting gausspults who can't fall down anymore. I'm joking.

[madmac451]

match maker this match maker that premaid vs pug what a load of bull what it boils down to is the game concept is community based... now if after readiing the guides, the forum posts the getting your arse handed to you and your still going lone wolf havent looked into a c3 or a ts3 team maybe you have problems the truth is i pug as much as i team up as my kdr will attest the thing is beating a dead hourse is fun i guess

[Sandpit]

I'm all for evening out the MM system. I am 100% for helping new players get eased into the game so they can enjoy it. I just get tired of hearing how I'm evil because I drop in teams sometimes.

There's ALWAYS going to be those that try to cause grief in a game like this but it's on both sides.

As far as evening things out? Premies against premies and pugs against pugs isn't going to solve it.
I promise you that a team of experienced puggers using teamwork are going to roflstomp puggers that don't
That leaves you with one of two arguments I see coming.
1.) Premies are somehow still stomping me (I've seen it on the boards since phase 1 and don't think it's going to stop)
2.) Premies weren't the cause of the stomps so it must be pugs using teamwork that are OP and mean now

What they need to do is chunk the whole idea of premie and pug. It's an experience and teamwork issue not a "voip" issue.
Dropping new players against new players (Solaris 7 training program anyone?) would be a huge start.
ELO MM (which is on its way) will go a long way eventually but everyone will start on even ground with ELO and it will take some time for players to get a good solid baseline for their ELO in order to even out the drops
Teamwork ops inexperience

I just get really tired of being called names, told I'm the reason the game will fail, especially when I go out of my way to help new players when I can. Just because someone uses voip doesn't mean they're trying to stomp anyone. It means we enjoy the social aspect and shooting the bs with one another in between games.

madmac451, on 15 November 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

match maker this match maker that premaid vs pug what a load of bull what it boils down to is the game concept is community based... now if after readiing the guides, the forum posts the getting your arse handed to you and your still going lone wolf havent looked into a c3 or a ts3 team maybe you have problems the truth is i pug as much as i team up as my kdr will attest the thing is beating a dead hourse is fun i guess

I don't agree with this entirely either though.
There's a HUGE difference between players who pug and try to actually play as a team and the pugs who rambo in to die or just play very poorly because it's all about pew pew pew in their face with muh lazer gunz!

[Valore]

Why is it okay that when annoyed premades complain about having to wait for phase 2, pugs yell at them.

Yet when pugs get the short end of the stick, they don't seem to be able to take their own advice and wait for phase 2

[Jacek Owens]

At peak times getting lots of 8 man premades vs PUGs. It's as bad as it was pre patch. Feel like giving up this game. I know they are coordinating drops via teamspeak. I felt like taking screenies of the repeat offenders but i don't really care about the future of this game anymore. It's a shame they can't play fair or to the rules. It's the same people each time. They talk about it being all about team play but it isn't. It's about stomping as quick as possible. Come on, do people really expect us to believe that you can't get the same enjoyment playing with 4 friends as you can with 8? And most these premades aren't even friends. People you invite to games cause they are good, and have the best mechs are not friends...

Let's call this what it really is and dispense with the facades...

This is banding together to minimise losses and win quickly. It's not a challenge and its not edifying. They deny it of course, and use the excuse of their need to join with 7 friends etc because it is obviously shameful to admit they are unwilling to play this game with random, often poorly equipped players. FPS players have egos you know.

In the end it is self defeating as your hardcore population will only sustain this game so far. If you can't welcome other players, casual players, and just beat down on them still using combined drops, then they won't come back. But it strikes me these types of players, most of them appear to be founders, could not even grasp such an idea. It is beyond their comprehension that this kind of behaviour could have effects other than boosting their stats and c-bill income. There is no concept of a bigger picture, there is no fair play, there is just the selfish narrow minded nature of the FPS video gamer.

That PGI think combined drops are fine I think is the last straw for me. What was the point of the patch? To appear to cater to casual players, but infact make it so easy for teamspeak clans to drop together that it makes no difference? Perhaps PGI feel they need to keep the founder population happy during the beta testing phase and cater to their every whim. Free to play people paid nothing and so are not important. I can actually understand this as a business model, but at some point, it has to make new players want to stick with it and buy into the game. I guess that time is later, but in the meantime significant damage is being done to the games image.

Edited by Jacek Owens, 15 November 2012 - 09:20 PM.

[Sandpit]

lol

[Sandpit]

Jacek Owens, on 15 November 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

At peak times getting lots of 8 man premades vs PUGs. It's as bad as it was pre patch. Feel like giving up this game. I know they are coordinating drops via teamspeak. I felt likemtaking screenies of the repeat offenders but i don't ally care about the future of this game anymore. It's a shame they can't play fair or to the rules. It's the same people each time. They talk about it being all about team play but it isn't. It's about stomping as quick as possible. Come on, do people really expect us to believe that you can't get the same enjoyment playing with 4 friends as you can with 8? And most these premades aren't even friends. People you invite to games cause they are good, and have the best mechs are not friends...

Let's call this what it really is and dispense with the facades...

This is banding together to minimise losses and win quickly. It's not a challenge and its not edifying. They deny it of course, and use the excuse of their need to join with 7 friends etc because it is obviously shameful to admit they are unwilling to play this game with random, often poorly equipped players. FPS players have egos you know.

In the end it is self defeating as your hardcore population will only sustain this game so far. If you can't welcome other players, casual players, and just beat down on them still using combined drops, then they won't come back. But it strikes me these types of players, most of them appear to be founders, could not even grasp such an idea. It is beyond their comprehension that this kind of behaviour could have effects other than boosting their stats and c-bill income. There is no concept of a bigger picture, there is no fair play, there is just the selfish narrow minded nature of the FPS video gamer.

Sooooooooooooooooooooooo
In your opinion there's absolutely no reason (friendship, socializing, using teamwork in a team based game, having fun, using strategy, hanging out with people you like, making new online friends in a persistent world game, etc.) for grouping up other than to stomp people who drop solo?

[Vermaxx]

Every MM change they propose is to shut you people up. The game is a combat beta with working mechlab and static economy.

It was intended to be a placeholder for a more finished product that was going to be in place by 2013. Since that didn't work out, they are tacking on features they assumed CW would solve.

Obviously "MM" didn't fix anything because it isn't doing anything fancy. It's just putting people into matches. There is no queue. You click ready, and the game lumps you together with anyone else who clicked ready. Right now the only control is that a team cannot be larger than 4 players. The system does not try to combine or avoid combining them in any way. It just shoves people together based on its own criteria, likely based off ping and location. And mech weight, at least.

Phase 2 of the vaunted "MM" will do the same thing, minus weights, for groups. PUG matches will still be the 'who knows what you get' mess they are now, except apparently you won't be able to run as 4 man groups. Or maybe you will, just without selecting the "premade" option.

Anyone who looks at their "MM" info, and is not impressed by the lack of concrete descriptions, and doesn't notice the contradictions, is convinced that the reason why MWO is going badly for them is because the "MM" system is sharting on them.

You're partially true; it's sharting on everyone. It will continue to do so. I do not expect to see Phase 3 ever, unless CW is so delayed that they have to. If that is the case, the game is doomed because elo will not save such a one-trick game. Really, why would they put a ton of effort into building an elo system to match people in BETA, when CW is just going to infinitely split the population over different battle planets?

To say nothing of the extra servers for the 3rd person folks.

[Wraith05]

i just hope on tuesday i won't have to wait forever and a day just to play with a team.

I could care less about pug stomping or the challenge of fighting premades.

I just want to work with a team that works together as a team, not me and 7 rambos.

[Jman5]

They really need to get match making stuff squared away as soon as possible. As it is right now, neither side is happy.

Edited by Jman5, 15 November 2012 - 09:23 PM.

[Vermaxx]

I think they should just stop and tell people to live with it. They took that attitude with so many other positions, why not one more?

[4er3BaPa]

Insist on:
1) Random vs. Random with equal mechs teams fights
3) 4 (minimum) - 12 (maximum) PUGs only battle
3) Dueling 1 x 1 (challange from Social)

Mix fight (at current state match-maker) extremly needed upgrade to 2nd phase.

[Fooooo]

I think the point was that Phase 2 of the MM will not stop 2 groups of 4 trying to sync drop onto the same team to face 8 pugs.

Now, that will be a rare occurance imo, but it still should not be able to happen when phase 2 comes around.

By that time it should be limited to 1 group of 4 per side in a random match. That way , the 2 groups of 4 syncing their drop can play against each other creating a good match, rather then the 2 groups being on the same side & facing either 1 group of 4 and 4 pubbers, or 8 pubbers........

The only problem is trying to fit that with groups of 3.....do you let 2 groups of 3 on the 1 team or not ? I probably would keep it to 1 group of 3 a side, but 2 groups of 2 on 1 team is allowed.....as its better than nothing, and its probably going to be the closest to a good balanced matchup without giving everyone 30min queues......

Edited by Fooooo, 15 November 2012 - 10:23 PM.

[Roadbuster]

What should be changed is the possibility of one team starting with 4+ trial mechs while the other team starts with 8 custom mechs.
There should be a minimum and a maximum number of trial mechs for each team, or even better, a seperate matchmaking just for trial mechs.

[MaddMaxx]

LogicSol, on 15 November 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

That is the old info, here is the current post on the command chair

I think I will stick to the Maths bit. This Info bit is way to finnicky to track reliably. They change their minds more than the wife ffs.
(love you darling)

[Martini Henrie]

Oh the evil that pre made teams commit is the cause of many a finger nail to be chewed completely off in frustration...

Get a grip. Really, just get a grip. PGi are implementing a fix for this, one which has been well documented. Even so we still get people whining about how unfair it all is.

I hate the current fix. Mostly because the game hinges on whether you get pugs that know their elbows from their...

There are always going to be new players learning the ropes, and I have no problem giving advice and helping those players. It is frustrating when you take the time to le the pugs know what we are planning, and then watch them bomb burst and get slotted one at a time. But hey, it's a game and to be honest we just laugh it off.

I can't wait for full 8 man drops, as some of the less used mechs will come into their own again. Harassers have limited function at the moment, and I can't wait to destroy full teams cohesion again. I play for fun, stats are just something that happen to others people.

Give up on the boogie man syndrome. It's been thoroughly disabused, PUGs only have themselves to blame for their own demise. There is a wealth of information available, and a lot of it is common sense. A set of training missions would sort out a lot of the problems faced by PUGs.

Before the flames, I'm not stating that all pugs are bad. They are not. Many times at the end of a game we have sat and conflabbed about a particularly good player and their style.

[FerretGR]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

I'm sick and tired of being ostracized

Drama queen. Ostracized. For god's sake, you're being asked to play with 4 people instead of 8 for a week or two. Get some perspective.

[FerretGR]

EJT, on 15 November 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

Then the patch came, and for me, the experience has improved dramatically. I still get stomped, but it's much more rare. Rare enough that it doesn't sap my will to play anymore. I realize that this change, which made the game much more fun for me, also had the effect of making it much less fun for premades. And I'm sorry about that. But as we all know, it's temporary. So my point is, the stomping by premades, in my experience, was a reality and not a myth. I don't blame the premades one bit. But at the same time, I'm happier now that Phase 1 has been implemented -- it was an effective bandaid for me. I hope Phase 2 is an effective bandaid for you until the real MM is implemented.

That's a really great post, EJT. I'm sharing your experience (ie. that things have improved) both from a premade and PUG perspective (I do both). Which is why I have to disagree with the "less fun for premades" part. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this change has improved my premade experience as well. When we got together in groups of 8, we rolled everyone. It was great for the grind but terrible in terms of challenge and fun. Now, and bearing in mind that we don't try to juke the system to end up in the same group, I'm finding games more challenging, and I'm enjoying the time with my (albeit smaller) team because of it.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Sandpit, on 15 November 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

It's not an exploit. The devs have specifically stated this isn't an exploit. It's called dropping with friends.
As far as "fixing" it phase 2 gets implemented on Tuesday.

It is an exploit. Because it defeats the whole purpose of Phase 1. You're cheating the system to recreate your 8 man team vs. PUG battles which Phase 1 was implemented to stop. Continue doing it if you want, but don't try to justify it.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 16 November 2012 - 03:02 PM.

[Vollstrecker]

Hilarious, another bogeyman to explain why people lose. This never gets old.