92 replies to this topic

[Dakkath]

Mister Blastman, on 15 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Not really. The ability for AC 20/UAC 20's to knock people over in Mechwarrior 3 was game-breaking. It was disastrous.

It was disastrous in table top too. I don't really see a problem with it, as long as they implemented it correctly.

[Mister Blastman]

I do. It could quickly be exploited to keep people permanently knocked over.

But, I will take your argument and provide a counter:

IF they implemented knockdowns due to projectile hits, I argue they should allow jump-jet users to avoid knockdowns altogether by jump jetting back onto their feet while falling over.

You should also be able to make your mech get up, somehow (non-macroable).

[MustrumRidcully]

Paul Inouye, on 15 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

The Gauss Rifle has always been a fragile weapon. Even in TT, just hitting the weapon would make it explode doing an instant 20 damage.

Whow, 20 damage... THat's really impressive... compared to the 150 damage an exploding AC/2 ton of ammo did.

The Gauss is no more fragile than any other weapon in the table top. It's more explosive, that's all there is to the Gauss. But it falls apart just as easily or as hard as any weapon in the table top.

Step 1) Hit internal armour
Step 2) Roll if you Crit, and if, how many
Step 3) Roll Crit Location - If it's a weapon, the weapon is destroyed. Special Rule: Gauss 20 damage to the current hit location (with a certain percentage chance, wasn't it?).

There isn't any roll that says "If you have a Gauss Rifle, double it's crit space on this table". It was more likely to lose an AC/20 than a Gauss Rifle in the table top since it occupied more criticals.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 15 November 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Description
Introduced in 2590 by the Terran Hegemony^[4], the Gauss Rifle utilizes a series of electromagnets to propel slugs of ferrous nickel-iron alloy at extremely high velocities^[5], making it a devastating and lethal long-range weapon. Unlike most traditional ballistic weapons, the Gauss Rifle does not use combustible propellant, so its firing generates very little heat. However, the sheer mass and bulk of the weapon limits its applications.
Since the Gauss Rifle fires solid metal slugs, with neither propellant nor explosive, Gauss Rifle magazines are not susceptible to ammunition explosions. However, if the weapon itself is struck by enemy fire, the capacitors that power the electromagnets will release their stored energy, with an effect similar to an ammo explosion. (In game terms, a critical hit on a Gauss Rifle is equivalent to a 20-point ammo explosion.) Some 'Mechs employ CASE in the section containing the Gauss Rifle to protect internal components in the event the weapon explodes.
The Gauss Rifle was found on a number of heavier Star League Defense Force 'Mechs, but fell out of use in the Inner Sphere during the technological decline of the Succession Wars. It was revived following the discovery of the Helm Memory Core. The Clans never lost the technology, and continued to refine the Star League-era weapon. Although the Clan Gauss Rifle is similar in performance and operation to its Inner Sphere counterpart, it is 20% lighter and somewhat more compact.
Note: The original description of the Gauss Rifle that appeared in the first printing of Technical Readout: 2750 listed the ammunition load as 10 shots per ton. This figure was later amended to eight shots per ton.

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Does not appear to be a chance to blow up, if it is critically hit then it goes boom.

Edited by Tickdoff Tank, 15 November 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[Kraven Kor]

The main thing PPC's need is near hitscan projectile speed.

EMP + instant projectile travel or near-instant would make them a very good alternative to the Gauss. Gauss = Fast-ish projectile, High Damage Sniper; PPC = Instant hit mid-damage sniper with debuff.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Why are you opposed to giving the Gauss more of a disadvantage? I see no real problem with making the gauss a far more fragile weapon than it is in TT. We have already increased the lethality of the gauss far beyond TT, to the point that there are not many reasons to *not* use a gauss. This upcoming change will at least give a reason to think twice about them. But the gauss will remain as effective as it is now untill it gets destroyed.

[Kaijin]

Paul Inouye, on 15 November 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

The Gauss Rifle has always been a fragile weapon. Even in TT, just hitting the weapon would make it explode doing an instant 20 damage.

Which is what it should do in MWO as well.

[Reoh]

I was hoping to see a little more optimism about the changes that have been are about to be made. Eager to try them out.

Edited by Reoh, 15 November 2012 - 01:21 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Tickdoff Tank, on 15 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Why are you opposed to giving the Gauss more of a disadvantage? I see no real problem with making the gauss a far more fragile weapon than it is in TT. We have already increased the lethality of the gauss far beyond TT, to the point that there are not many reasons to *not* use a gauss. This upcoming change will at least give a reason to think twice about them. But the gauss will remain as effective as it is now untill it gets destroyed.

I am opposed to giving weapons disadvantages like extreme fragility because they are mostly unfun and not well balanced. If 8 Gauss Cats are shooting you with their Gauss Rifles, you're not likely to find things easier than before, because you can still only kill them one at a time and in the meantime have to still deal with an overly strong weapon. If you're the loine Gauss user out there, one lucky hit takes out your biggest gun. Oh how great fun that is, walking around with a disarmed mech...

Where they could simply lower its rate off ire, lower its damage per shot, or increase its heat and give it a drawback that will pretty much always be relevant.

Or just give us real Double Heat Sinks, which would make PPCs about as efficient in the damage/tonnage department as PPCs, at least in engagements time under 20 seconds.

[Solis Obscuri]

As it stands, making the Gauss more fragile just brings it closer to par with the AC/20, which is apparently made from glass and eggshells.

On the PPC effects - Paul, can you tell us anything about what's planned in the way of "EMP"? I don't mind some cosmetic effects, but trying to balance the PPC with a special "stun" effect strikes me as more of a way to turn it into a griefing weapon for lagshielded lights than the long-range bombardment weapon it should be.

[wuselfuzz]

Real strong magnets and their fragility:



About PPCs.. I'm currently running a Centurion with dual PPCs in the right arm. It's actually quite fun and feels about right with DHS installed.

I guess, AC/20s and PPCs were quite alright, if the weapon trigger latency would be a bit better.

[lsp]

Mister Blastman, on 15 November 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

Ummm, what he proposes will not nerf Gauss to unplayable. You'll still have your ballistic hardpoints in the nearly invulnerable LT/RT of the K2...

Geeze. Paranoia?

In the closed beta, MANY of my favorite mechs were nerfed bigtime. Stuff like engines being limited (boooo), SRM spread, UAC 5 jamming. All those things made me throw out so many builds. I had to start over--except for my Dragons.

My point? Gauss people need to suck it up and deal with it like the rest of us. It is YOUR turn now.

Believe it or not, not everyone who uses gauss pilots a k2. Oh and if your not using gauss in your dragon, your doing it wrong.

Edited by lsp, 15 November 2012 - 01:36 PM.

[Mister Blastman]

MustrumRidcully, on 15 November 2012 - 01:21 PM, said:

I am opposed to giving weapons disadvantages like extreme fragility because they are mostly unfun and not well balanced. If 8 Gauss Cats are shooting you with their Gauss Rifles, you're not likely to find things easier than before, because you can still only kill them one at a time and in the meantime have to still deal with an overly strong weapon. If you're the loine Gauss user out there, one lucky hit takes out your biggest gun. Oh how great fun that is, walking around with a disarmed mech...

Where they could simply lower its rate off ire, lower its damage per shot, or increase its heat and give it a drawback that will pretty much always be relevant.

Or just give us real Double Heat Sinks, which would make PPCs about as efficient in the damage/tonnage department as PPCs, at least in engagements time under 20 seconds.

All good points. Especially the DHS ones.

lsp, on 15 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Believe it or not, not everyone who uses gauss pilots a k2. Oh and if your not using gauss in your dragon, your doing it wrong.

I do just fine in my Dragon without Gauss. Quite fine. I rarely bother with it, actually.

[Bishop Steiner]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

It won't nerf the gauss into unplayable, because people still need to kill your armor.
It doesn't, however, do anything about the gausscats, since the problem there is you can't really hit the side torsos.

so why do I blow out their side torsos all the time?

[TrentTheWanderer]

The changes that have been announced all look appropriate. The issue with Gausscats isn't the Gauss itself, it's the K2 and the huge amount of crit slots for the small hard-to-hit target area. Fix one issue, then the other, and a major barrier to game balance will be cleared.

[Imagine Dragons]

lsp, on 15 November 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Oh and if your not using gauss in your dragon, your doing it wrong.

Stand still as I headshot you with my triple AC/2s

Edited by XenomorphZZ, 15 November 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[Galland]

PPCs need an increase in "projectile" speed higher than that of an AC/2. They should not do any splash damage. Striaght 10 (or whatever final value) of damage on a single location. A slight EMP effect would be a nice bonus.

[Tuhalu]

Sounds good to me. As long as "20 points of damage to internal structure" in MWO is relatively the same as it is in tabletop. Then mechs with XL engines will often die the moment their Gauss Rifle explodes as it takes the related torso with it... If the Gauss Rifle is arm mounted, on a Heavy or Assault mech, it may only nearly kill the mech

[RunAndGun]

Hopefully, the lighter the target Mech is, the harder it gets rocked when hit by an AC/20...

[Executioneer]

Quote

SSRMs will spread damage across LT,CT,RT instead of always just hitting CT. On moving targets, limbs will be hit as well.

This nerf has already been implemented, to the point where if you fire 3 ssrm-2 launchers at the same locked target one or more missiles will frequently miss outright. Please don't nerf Streaks any further, thanks.