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"weapons Balancing"


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#81 Sprouticus

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:49 PM

View PostSpiralRazor, on 16 November 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:



read more.

Missiles need to go back to 2.0.

a .1 buff wont do it, sorry.


Reaosnable people can disagree. They are at 1.7 right now. Without Artemis they are probably not doing enough damage. With Artemis/TAG they are still quite deadly.

PGI has to balance LRM's for all LRM instances (naked/Artemis/TAG/NARC). Going back to 2.0 for the last 3 instances would in all likelyhood make them too powerful.

1.8 (vs 1.7) reduces total dmg (from before the 11.06 patch) by 10%. The total dmg reduction right now is 15%. So they are undoing 1/3 of the nerf.

But again, Artemis & TAG & NARC need to be considered.


I think 1.8 is good. I called for it after the hotfix on 11/9, and I think it will provide a decent balance for ALL instances of LRM.

#82 G4M3R

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 01:59 PM

Gee the bias around here is hiliarious. Can tell who's getting killed by gauss rifles and who only use LRMs. (Tend to be the same people).

Good players generally dont care about buffs/nerfs. They just min/max whatever is best anyways. PUGs will still get killed etc.

It's about "balancing" vs. all weapons so viable alternatives are available that cater to different styles. Buffing just one weapon or nerfing just one weapon is stupid game design. Glad they are taking a look at all ballistics as a whole --- maybe they are learning how to design a game finally.

Edited by G4M3R, 16 November 2012 - 01:59 PM.


#83 TrentTheWanderer

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 02:19 PM

The issue here is that the risk vs. reward curve needs to be adjusted significantly for several weapons. Gauss right now deliver very good performance with very minimal risk, which is further minimized by equipping them to difficult-to-hit target locations. Increasing the risk of using them adjusts for that a bit, but it applies a disproportionately high risk for some applications over others, and so is only part of adjusting them to fit properly balanced gameplay.

Missiles exist as a very variable risk weapon, as they can be fired from the protection of cover but become useless inside a minimum range. In the same way as the Gauss needs risk tweaks, changes to the "reward" element of LRMs are double-sided and the inherent risks really have to be considered. In this case the largest manageable "risk" of LRMs is their cost effectiveness, or the mean number of missiles that must be fired to achieve their desired effect vs. the respective cost per quantity of that missile.

In the end achieving game balance is a matter of having the potential "reward" of a piece of equipment directly proportionate to its "risk". That is to say that the best possible result with a weapon needs to be polar-ly comparable to the worst possible cost. Effective range, damage burst, damage over time, heat generated, weapon cost, weapon reliability, weapon weight, weapon availability/accessibility, additional effects on target, ect ALL play into game balance, and so they ALL have to be considered.

For those with heated and polarized opinions on LRMs and Gauss, consider that perhaps it is something other than the weapon itself that is emphasizing any actual unbalance that may exist, and that adjusting the weapons themselves might have less positive impact on balance than adjusting the factors which lead to the actual imbalancing behaviors in-game. That is to say that changing an individual weapon's characteristics have far-reaching implications in the metagame and that changing more localized factors can be a much more successful balancing tool.

Ideallly what Paul has proposed will work out well, or at the very least give us the ability to clearly identify the actual source of imbalance as opposed to incessantly whining about the nearest and most "apparent" source of gameplay issues.

Edited by TrentTheWanderer, 16 November 2012 - 02:19 PM.


#84 Aym

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:25 PM

View PostPaul Inouye, on 15 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

I think knockdowns will stay limited to the Charge ability.


What is "the Charge ability."?

#85 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:31 PM

View PostLethalMezzle, on 16 November 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

I like that Gauss Rifle nerf idea. I still think they need an increased cooldown to 5 or maybe 6 seconds, however.

Rest of the tweaks seem good - Flamers/MGs and PPCs getting a buff is excellent.

Technically its not a Nerf. Gauss always had that weakness. It'll be nice to see it back.

#86 Sean Drake

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

In most cases the real issue is not the weapons but the fact that the catapult in it's various forms can boat more or less anything, this has contributed to the nerfs to all missiles and the amount of requests for gauss to be nerfed.

Unfortunately by balancing the weapons around the catapult it make some of them sub par on other mechs, sadly this cannot be easily fixed based on the current crit slot system used for customisation.

#87 John Norad

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 06:45 PM

View PostVassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 11:35 AM, said:

It won't nerf the gauss into unplayable, because people still need to kill your armor.
It doesn't, however, do anything about the gausscats, since the problem there is you can't really hit the side torsos.

That's why it is a bad change. Increased cooldown time on the Gauss would be a good change. And there's really not much else you can do if you want it to stay close to the original.

#88 Aym

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 07:00 PM

Have the Cat's sides turn into 4-G sides when it puts UAC5 or greater in there and no one will be complaining about Gauss Cats anymore. They made the ppc's go snub-nose when you don't equip the arms, a similar change to the side torsos when they're bulging with weapons would be great.

#89 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:08 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 18 November 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Technically its not a Nerf. Gauss always had that weakness. It'll be nice to see it back.


But they already have it right now. Gauss Explosions were implemented way back in the Closed Beta, as you might remember. So why add something on top of that? THe Gauss was no more likely to get hit and taken out by a critical hit in the table top than any other weapon (with tha tmany crit slots) was. The only difference was - if it was taken out, the Gauss exploded. WHich was still much better than having your Ammo explode for a Gazillion damage.

#90 Noth

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:14 PM

View PostMustrumRidcully, on 18 November 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:


But they already have it right now. Gauss Explosions were implemented way back in the Closed Beta, as you might remember. So why add something on top of that? THe Gauss was no more likely to get hit and taken out by a critical hit in the table top than any other weapon (with tha tmany crit slots) was. The only difference was - if it was taken out, the Gauss exploded. WHich was still much better than having your Ammo explode for a Gazillion damage.


Guass also had a minimum range. Since they apparently don't want the minimum range, it needs something else to help balance it out.

#91 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 11:40 PM

View PostNoth, on 18 November 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:


Guass also had a minimum range. Since they apparently don't want the minimum range, it needs something else to help balance it out.

How about a reduced rate of fire? Or reducing the PPC minimum range?

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 November 2012 - 11:40 PM.


#92 Imagine Dragons

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 05:58 AM

:S

As much as I hate gauss, I feel that the nerfs to its iHP is a bit overboard...

One would think that having a large recycle time would balance it out rather well (8-10) seconds...

#93 CodeNameValtus

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:24 AM

View PostGhost Bear, on 15 November 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Paul, when collisions go back in any chance of ac 20 causing knockdowns?


On mechs lighter than 40 tons. But still causing heavy rock on mechs bigger than that. Because that makes actual sense. In TT you had to make a piloting roll whenever you take more than 20 damage in a turn. AC/20 does 20 damage on a hit. So might as well.

Also, when you are missing a leg, you should fall down more too.





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