42 replies to this topic

[Joehunk]

So I'll be the first to say I think 1.4 is too low a value for DHS. But let's set that aside for a moment and give the devs the benefit of the doubt that they made the right call on this one. I think the real issue with DHS is that they still take 3 crits. By nerfing the heat dissipation of DHS, PGI hit us with a "double whammy": heat per ton went down, but so did the (already worse than SHS) heat per crit, by a lot.

Canon (and MWO) SHS:
1 heat per ton
1 heat per crit

Canon DHS:
2 heat per ton
0.67 heat per crit

MWO DHS:
1.4 heat per ton
0.47 heat per crit

I submit that 0.67 was closer to the "right" value for heat per crit for DHS, even if 1.4 is the right value for heat per ton. This provides a good trade off between SHS and DHS. The space has a lot of problems:

1. Nerfing the heat per ton suggests that you should leave the players the option to spend more tons for more heat dissipation if they want. However, preventing mounting them in the CT or legs is too restrictive to allow this. I think blocking the CT and legs was a compelling trade off with DHS at the 2.0 level (or somewhere close to that) but not at 1.4.

2. For almost every build I have looked at, it's impossible to use DHS in combination with any of: XL engine, Ferro Fibrous, or Endo Steel, just because DHS are so crit space intensive. Most builds I make come down to a trade off between running DHS vs. running SHS and an XL engine, and the heat dissipation is almost identical between the two (usually a hair more for the DHS case, which is at least something). Then if I try to run an XL engine and DHS to get even better, I simply can't. I run out of crits long before tonnage. FF and Endo are worse still.

The one exception to this rule are low heat designs that can get most/all of the heat dissipation they need from the engine-mounted heat sinks alone (and of course run a 250 engine or larger).

I think it's bad to have it be a choice between DHS and { everything else }. DHS should be able to be meaningfully combined with at least one of the other upgrades in most designs, possibly excepting crit-strapped assault mechs.

3. For mechs mounting engines significantly smaller than 250, they are really getting hammered big time. Now you're forcing them to spend 3 crits per 1.4 heat whether they like it or not.

If MWO DHS were made to take 2 crits, that is 0.7 heat per crit, which is almost exactly the canon heat per crit value of DHS.

Edited by Joehunk, 07 November 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Kobold]

Joehunk, on 07 November 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

So I'll be the first to say I think 1.4 is too low a value for DHS.

No, I assure you, you won't.

[Wingbreaker]

The actual value isn't 1.4; when applied to elite pilot trees it becomes ~1.6.

Furthermore, Clan DHS are already 2 crit slots.

[Joehunk]

Kobold, on 07 November 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

No, I assure you, you won't.

Well played sir.

Quote

The actual value isn't 1.4; when applied to elite pilot trees it becomes ~1.6.

Furthermore, Clan DHS are already 2 crit slots

I am not sure what point you're trying to make here. Yes it goes up when mech efficiencies are applied. So do SHS. The issue is the comparison of DHS to SHS, not the comparison of DHS to...well what ARE you trying to compare it to? No heat sinks at all?

As for Clan, for one thing I think it's unproductive to discuss what should be done to the game right now in terms of what might be done to the game at some later date. The game needs to work now, and it needs to work when they introduce Clan tech. If we make it so we have to treat those issues (and, I guess, all other features they've ever talked about adding to this game?) at once, then we'll never get anywhere.

But to just totally pull something out of my butt, I think if Clan DHS worked like they do in canon (2 heat dissipation, 2 crits) and IS DHS worked like I am proposing (1.4 heat dissipation, 2 crits) then that is about right. It'd still be about right if they had to dial Clan back a hair say to 1.8.

Edited by Joehunk, 07 November 2012 - 11:28 AM.

[Khobai]

DHS need to just be 2.0, this 1.4 nonsense needs to stop...

[Raalic]

Joehunk, on 07 November 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

As for Clan, for one thing I think it's unproductive to discuss what should be done to the game right now in terms of what might be done to the game at some later date. The game needs to work now, and it needs to work when they introduce Clan tech. If we make it so we have to treat those issues (and, I guess, all other features they've ever talked about adding to this game?) at once, then we'll never get anywhere.

I'm not sure I agree that it's unproductive to consider clan tech, right now. I can almost guarantee that PGI is considering its future impact with every adjustment they make, because completely overhauling the entire game when clans hit is not an option. It has to work as though clan tech is already available for the comparison.

[CocoaJin]

DHS seems to be best suited for light and medium mechs, where tonnage is a limiting factor after slotting in a respectable amount of weapon tonnage. If you only have 4 tons left, but lots of critical slots, you're better off with 4-6x DHS than 4-6x SHS.

After you starting building Heavy and especially Assaults, you'll have a better chance at having plenty of tons left over, possibly crit slots to fill with SHS after slotting in armor and weapons...more than you could equip with DHS due to the 3x crit slot requirement.

Edited by CocoaJin, 07 November 2012 - 12:00 PM.

[Vermaxx]

DHS works fine for light and medium, and brawler heavies.

DHS does not work well for large-weapon heavies and assaults. That can be fixed with pilot xp skills, or choosing a "role" for your pilot. IE, stuff that has nothing to do with default heatsink numbers.

2.0 is too gorramn high, and I demanded it as loudly as anyone else. It is too high. I can already see the krap I am cabable of with medium lasers and both pilot skill levels. If I had 2.0DHS, I would be completely broken.

[waysted]

The simplest solution to this whole DHS issue is for PGI to set their value to 1.75. When you then factor in the 15% bonus from the mech trees, you'll end up with a DHS with a value of 2.0125, i.e. basically a TT DHS.

Does this kind of suck for players who haven't fully elited three variants of a mech? Yes...

Does this help un-nerf heavy & assault mechs? Yes...

Does this nerf lights & medium mechs? Nope...

Does this help out heavy energy configuration mechs (which PGI claim are OP...lol & somehow LRMs w/ Artemis weren't in their internal testing...)? Yes...

[Hida Kisada]

The critical slots are just too much. If you want to see how much of a problem this is look at the Hunchback HBK-4P - if you switch to DHS without changing out anything else you have to fill every single possible crit slot with DHS just to get any net gain from base, this'll give you a couple tons to toy with but you've used every single slot you had for little to no gain. Additionally you now have a number of spots (the legs and center torso as OP mentioned) that are useless now. With DHS being 1.4 rather than 2, they need to take fewer critical slots.

If DHS were 2 slots at 1.4 i think it would work fine - and would justify choosing them for heat intensive builds.

[ollo]

Wingbreaker, on 07 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

The actual value isn't 1.4; when applied to elite pilot trees it becomes ~1.6.

If the 2x boni were working...

[Khobai]

Quote

The actual value isn't 1.4; when applied to elite pilot trees it becomes ~1.6.

But it should be 2.0

[YoGetDog]

Hida Kisada, on 11 November 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

The critical slots are just too much. If you want to see how much of a problem this is look at the Hunchback HBK-4P - if you switch to DHS without changing out anything else you have to fill every single possible crit slot with DHS just to get any net gain from base, this'll give you a couple tons to toy with but you've used every single slot you had for little to no gain. Additionally you now have a number of spots (the legs and center torso as OP mentioned) that are useless now. With DHS being 1.4 rather than 2, they need to take fewer critical slots.

If DHS were 2 slots at 1.4 i think it would work fine - and would justify choosing them for heat intensive builds.

stop smoking crack, its not good for you

[Zyllos]

DHS are already 0.2 for the engines and 0.14 for heatsinks outside the engine.

This is why DHS feel useless for larger mechs (unless they have extremely large engines).

[sokitumi]

here's the problem with 2 slots. Llights and meds can put them in their legs. Which means that they dont have as many sacrifices on weapons, endo, ff.

it's a dilemma... probably no good solution.

[MustrumRidcully]

Wingbreaker, on 07 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

The actual value isn't 1.4; when applied to elite pilot trees it becomes ~1.6.

Furthermore, Clan DHS are already 2 crit slots.

So single heat sinks aren't actually single heat sinks, but 1.15 heat sinks?
Leave the efficiencies out of it for this - every type of heat sink benefits from them.

[Kill3rAce]

Yeah, agree DHS just don't seem to work very well with my K2. I always have like 1.7/8 tons that aren't being used with armor already maxed out

[YoGetDog]

Kill3rAce, on 11 November 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Yeah, agree DHS just don't seem to work very well with my K2. I always have like 1.7/8 tons that aren't being used with armor already maxed out

lower armor so that you have 1.5 ton left, and AMS. problem fix

[Corvus Antaka]

Not sure on this. Maybe just improve SHS efficiency slightly so heavy/assaults that bring a good 20+ SHS to a battle actually have some heat efficiency.

[CrayTrashfire]

DHS are completely worthless unless your a commando. Energy weapons and missle weapons dont pack any punch anymore so basically making dhs 1.4, makes this game gauss wars not mwo. Give us our variety back stop nerfing energy and missiles and then buff balistics when they were already good enough

Edited by CrayTrashfire, 13 November 2012 - 12:35 PM.