31 replies to this topic

[SpiralRazor]

• SSRMs will spread damage across LT,CT,RT instead of always just hitting CT. On moving targets, limbs will be hit as well.
  
• LRMs will get a 0.1 damage buff.

PPCs are being investigated.

• Heat balance?
  
• Projectile Speed?

Current issue most people have isnt that SSRMS are hitting all over a mech now...thats pretty much the way it should be... Its that having one or even both missiles miss, even against targets that are standing still, is clearly not how the weapon is supposed to work...thats the whole point of needing a lock, and maintaining the lock while youre maneuvering and the added weight and cost of the system itself.

LRMS will need more then a .1 buff. I believe that would put them at 1.8...Still not enough with current grouping/tracking speed and the reduced damage to heads thats still in the code. To 1.9 and with the current trajectory fix... and that supposed 5% spread nerf to Artemis, would make paying for the Artemis rearms worthwhile.

The PPCs heat is near fine...the issue is that its still fairly easy to miss with it at the ranges its supposed to be accurate at. Fixing advanced zoom would do a lot for that, and also a further increase in the travel speed. DHS outside engine at 2.0 would also help. Netcode/server side authorization.

ERPPC...simply too much heat for too little effect, all other buffs same as the PPC.

However, if the ECM effect of PPC fire is pretty strong, then its possible no further buffs are needed.


Everything else listed in the post I agree with, and im glad to see AC/20, MGs and Flamer getting some work.


EDIT: UAC/5 Jamming mechanic seriously needs to be addressed pronto, especially if your going to have new players using trials mechs that come equipped with them. Nothing would put me further off a chassis then to take one not knowing what it does, and have its main weapon jam out 15 seconds into a match. Dont think Id touch that Cicada etc, again.

Edited by SpiralRazor, 16 November 2012 - 02:05 PM.

[OpCentar]

We shall see about LRMs, my C4 with 2xLRM20s+Artemis+TAG is waiting.

Though I don't think 1.8 damage will be enough, maybe for LRM15s where the spread isn't so bad.

[Vermaxx]

SSRM need to stop missing unless the target is moving very fast or gets behind cover.

LRM need their cooldowns lowered, at least. Damage may need to come up. The nerf of Artemis went beyond what was necessary.

PPC and ERPPC suffer from the ballistic reticle issue, nothing more. "Convergence" was explained to me by a friend as how fast your weapons actually track back to where the reticle is, as opposed to where it WAS. So, with a low convergence speed, your gun may not accurately track the reticle. Even if this isn't the right explanation, the KNOWN ISSUE of server side authentication and ballistic delay means the reticle's final position doesn't necessarily match it's position at the time the game registered you firing. All of that needs attention. Heat isn't what makes PPC or even ERPPC bad, it is the fact that they're just tons more work to use effectively versus lasers.

AC20 needed something, but apart from being 40 damage I can't say that a giant mech shake will make it better than gauss. In fact, I'll go so far as to say "No, it still won't be as good as gauss." MG and flamers were flat worthless, I suspect they will STILL be almost worthless after buffing.



I'd also like to point out that the Artemis tooltip says SRM gain homing effects. This worked on Day Of Artemis, it doesn't anymore. I've even tried spotting for myself with a tag. IF Artemis does anything for SRM (and I'm not saying it does), all it does is tighten up the spread a wee bit. That is unacceptable, even if it does tighten the spread. Plenty of missiles still go wide at 270 meters, and they don't track.

[SpiralRazor]

"Heat isn't what makes PPC or even ERPPC bad, it is the fact that they're just tons more work to use effectively versus lasers."



Well yeah, this. That tons more work though comes from the problems weve outlined. I understand high risk, high reward weapons, but PPCs simply dont have the rewards.

SRMS guided by Artemis should track at exactly half of whatever the tracking stats they are using for Streaks. I think that would make more sense?

Edited by SpiralRazor, 16 November 2012 - 02:26 PM.

[Teralitha]

LRMS do not need a cooldown reduction. At all. More damage yes, but less cooldown no. Several weapons really should have their cooldowns increased. Probably all.

And yea, SSRMS are now kinda pointless, you now have pretty much the same accuracy if you use regular SRM But by no means should they even get back half of their former power. Only a small tweak is needed.

[SpiralRazor]

They need to not miss...the problem will be lots worse when the larger ones come along.

[BlackSquirrel]

Regular PPCs need to have the minimum removed as well. Or at least do some damage under 90m.

AC/20 with massive shake and projectile speed should be fine.

AC/10 should be like a marksman rifle. Good and accurate for medium/long range, but not extreme... Not a huge ROF, not a huge slug, but the most accurate/fastest project aside from the guass.

[Hurnn]

All of PGI's attempts to balance weapons are band-**** on the larger issue of the broken heat system. Until that is fixed there will never be anything close to weapon balance.

[MuonNeutrino]

Can someone post a link to wherever this balance post is? I can't find it.

[SpiralRazor]

http://mwomercs.com/...45#entry1429445

[Tickdoff Tank]

On the SSRMs: Is it possible that part of the reason that the missles are missing is because they are attempting to target the arms of a mech? If they are aiming for the arms of a mech and that mech is torso twisting and moving it might be highlighting the problems with the pathing of the missles. If that is the case it *might* be fine if they only aim for the RT, LT and CT, due to the poor pathing that might be all the spread we need.

I am having some trouble articulating what I want to say, let me try again. Right now the missles are spreading out a little too much and are missing, possibly because they are aiming for the extremities of the mech. But if we keep the "poor' pathing but reduce the available lock-on targets to the center of the mech we might end up with an acceptable amount of spread even though we are only targeting 3 locations.

[Amaterasu1963]

SSRMs shouldn't miss. They can hit other body parts or hit cover if he gets cover but they shouldn't miss.

PPCs need to travel at 99.99% light speed. (instant hit) If you do that the heat is totally balanced.

[Lyteros]

It's funny how the weapons are beeing changed one by one instead of fixing the garbage heat system.

It's obviously so much better to balance 50 different sized weights on a table sitting on top of a sphere, instead of putting solid legs under it.

[Tickdoff Tank]

Lyteros, on 17 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

It's funny how the weapons are beeing changed one by one instead of fixing the garbage heat system.

It's obviously so much better to balance 50 different sized weights on a table sitting on top of a sphere, instead of putting solid legs under it.

The pathing of the SSRMs has nothing to do with heat. Nor is heat the problem with LRMs. Heat generation may be a way to help out the PPCs, but so might an extra effect like EMP. For the PPC/ERPPC they really do need a faster projectile (IMO) but we should wait and see what they do with them before screaming about the heat they generate.

[cmopatrick]

Amaterasu1963, on 17 November 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

PPCs need to travel at 99.99% light speed. (instant hit) If you do that the heat is totally balanced.

just a thought: this is a game where people want to see their weapons go off. at true relativistic speeds, you would not see the ppc activate and folks would wonder if it was working. think of it in the same context as the reality that one would not see a laser in clear air (and it would not work underwater), i would suggest these tweaks from real world for game play are part of the MW gaming tradition, if you will... folks want to know they hit the target without having to zoom in to see it glow or have a electrical corona.

Edited by cmopatrick, 17 November 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[Lyteros]

Tickdoff Tank, on 17 November 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

The pathing of the SSRMs has nothing to do with heat. Nor is heat the problem with LRMs. Heat generation may be a way to help out the PPCs, but so might an extra effect like EMP. For the PPC/ERPPC they really do need a faster projectile (IMO) but we should wait and see what they do with them before screaming about the heat they generate.

Agreed, but the weapons have also to be balanced against each other. If SRMS / LRMS get perfectly balanced its for nothing if other weapons are still crap. If the high energy weapons get balanced out, the balancing of the whole is broken again, and SRM / LRM may likely have to be adjusted too.

[buckX]

You guys all realize that LRMs at 2.0 were considered OP, right? 90% of OP is not crappy. The lowered efficacy of Artemis isn't a great argument for why the number needs to be higher, since 2.0 and no Artemis is already too strong.

[MustrumRidcully]

For ER PPCs - if they don't really intend to fix the heat system, they will need to alter the weapon in some way to make it worthwhile.
My idea would be: Raise damage per shot, but lower the rate of fire. This will make it a better sniper weapon. Say, set it's damage to 13 and lower its heat to 12, and give it a recycle time of 4 seconds. That would lower its DPS to 3.25 (Current PPC and ER PPC has a DPS of 3.33), but basically give it the same heat per second as the normal PPC - at an increased range and an improved alpha strike damage.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 17 November 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Tickdoff Tank]

buckX, on 17 November 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

You guys all realize that LRMs at 2.0 were considered OP, right? 90% of OP is not crappy. The lowered efficacy of Artemis isn't a great argument for why the number needs to be higher, since 2.0 and no Artemis is already too strong.

2.0 damage was not the thing that made them OP, it was the pathing. The 90 degree downward turn they took and dropped on your head, and avoided most of the cover you could hide behind.

1.8 will be better than 1.7 (obviously), but I would not mind a couple weeks testing of 1.9 either.

[John Norad]

Vermaxx, on 16 November 2012 - 02:10 PM, said:

AC20 needed something, but apart from being 40 damage I can't say that a giant mech shake will make it better than gauss. In fact, I'll go so far as to say "No, it still won't be as good as gauss." MG and flamers were flat worthless, I suspect they will STILL be almost worthless after buffing.

The answer to this is to increase Gauss cooldown, effectively reducing it's dps.
It should be bad at brawling, since it is a long range high damage weapon without heat issues. In most cases this wouldn't even have a big effect on actual gameplay, because people shooting at long range rarely fire their Gauss at max RoF.

Basically, the Gauss doesn't need high dps, the AC20 does.

And this:

Lyteros, on 17 November 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

It's funny how the weapons are beeing changed one by one instead of fixing the garbage heat system.

It's obviously so much better to balance 50 different sized weights on a table sitting on top of a sphere, instead of putting solid legs under it.

Get rid of the 'heat neutrality' boogieman. Of course proper SHS would make many 3025 era designs work without big heat issues. Of course proper DHS would make most 3025 era designs work without any heat issues at all.
But is that a bad thing?
No. For one, there are exceptions. There are hopelessly overgunned mechs. If the Stalker comes out, the only way to make it work will be to rip out half it's guns and start optimizing. For newbies it will be a horror driving it.
For another thing, there are star league and 3050 era weapons. You need the improved heat dissipation to make them really work (and maps that actually allow them to be used effectively). Apart from that, better heat sinks will just lead to higher weapon density. The skilled pilot riding the red line will easily overpower the heat neutral newbie mech, because he won't settle for heat neutrality.
That's how it is supposed to be, finding the sweet spot.
If PGI fears matches could become too short, they should reduce damage per shot across the board, instead of gimping the whole heat system.

Edited by John Norad, 17 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.