137 replies to this topic

[Felicitatem Parco]

Yeah, PDWs are meant to be the weakest round possible that can penetrate soft armor and then a torso afterward, but in order to do that they have to be small, light, and zippy. Now, people can run off after being shot a few times with a 5.56mm-class cartridge, and that's true because the 5.56-range has little *thump* value against a torso... but each of those shots were most likely grievous or fatal in the long-run due to blood loss.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 30 April 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[G4MBIT]

Latest issue of Playboy and a Kel Tec PF-9 as a back.

[Kifferson von doober]

Scar, on 27 April 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

I'm with Scar on this one. Noisy cricket, Definately!

[NotNewHere]

One of those watermelon sized tactical nukes and a jetpack! "Yippy Ki Yay ************"

[Catamount]

GDL Irishwarrior, on 30 April 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

To be fair, PDW rounds (and, to an extent, the 5.56 - depends on the particular cartridge, as has been pointed out by others) do what they were designed to do quite well - they punch through body armor like tissue paper.
The problem is, they don't do much damage afterwards unless they tumble (which is by no means guaranteed, regardless of what the profit-driven manufacturer says).This especially becomes a problem if the target is not wearing body armor (as is the case with the vast majority of the people we are currently fighting) - without that extra barrier to slow the round down, tumbling is even harder to achieve. There's a reason that some soldiers have reported putting 6+ rounds of 5.56 on unarmored targets just to watch the bad guy run off (I recall reading about this in the Black Hawk Down book; go about 3/4 down this page). Now, granted, there are variations of these rounds designed to be more effective (Like the MK318 MOD 0 mentioned above) - however, these are not standard issue, and may never be.

Well, also to be fair, reading up, I encountered numerous instances of claimed engagements with the P90 in all sorts of situations, and in most of them, death resulted from few rounds, usually nearly instantly, very often in cases with heavy body armor. This is more than can be expected from many/most firearms (since people have survived considerable assaults from 9mm rounds, and as you point out, even 5.56 in many cases)

Wild hypothesizing about how the round should perform in the field based no a few test firings into a lab medium don't mean much unless someone can point to a myriad of cases where the weapon actually failed to do its job. If the round does its job at the intended range, and by all real-world accounts, very light weapon with a large clip and great handling, with the lethality for the defensive purposes of an ejected pilot, that's extremely small, to the point that it actually fits in a mech cockpit (the whole point of the discussion here), or any small place for that matter, and isn't going to encumber an ejected pilot as they withdraw as quickly as possible from the battlefield.


This is the problem when you have only rudimentary firearm knowledge. There seems to be a lot of 5.7 have just for its own sake. I should have been more skeptical, especially given just how widespread use of the weapon is, and given that fact that I really never had heard much bad from the field (just the opposite).

Here's an example:

http://www.hendonpub...ils.aspx?ID=309

It certainly doesn't sound like a useless weapon

That article mentions one of about a dozen shootouts I read up on with the weapon, and in every case, it performed quite well.

Edited by Catamount, 01 May 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[Alexander Fury]

S&W 5946 Tac 9mm

[Kingwolf]

What I'm noticing with the AR-15 carbine (M4) detractors is the uselessness of the round. Yes, the 5.56 is a pretty bad round in the M4, which is why you go with the 6.8mm SPC. It has almost the same ammo capacity of the 5.56, and it blows the 5.56 out of the water in terms of ballistics.

[Felicitatem Parco]

... but why do 6.8SPC when you can do 6.5 Grendel...? It's better than 6.8 in every way execpt cost, and that's just due to production volume.

The 6.8 has terrible long-rang ballistics compared to most rifle cartridges, but the short range terminal ballistics are superior to 5.56 and that's why people like it. If you want something with the *whump* of a 6.8 SPC, less recoil than a 7.62x51, and long-range accuracy surpassing the 7.62x51, then just get 6.5 Grendel-chambered upper and use two barrels: one for 250+ yards and one for close quarters. One ammo type makes logistics better for eveyone.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 01 May 2012 - 08:24 AM.

[shd0hwk]

I see you silly folks...remember, this is Battletech, not ancient history...A VibroKatana is a good choice, as is a Blazer or a Sunbeam...then there's the ever popular Python with HEAP rounds. Keep it in the game guys...

And for those of you with no RP experience in Mechwarrior, I would get a copy of AToW (A Time of War) and see what are available out there..and those designing the game, you know what I am talking about...

[Kyle Hawkins]

To add my 2 cents to the long winded P90/5.7 vs ##### debate, I'll offer the following small points.

1) Whoever mentioned "A 50 round mag is great as long as you don't have to reload", is speaking out of their ***. The shape of the weapon guides in magazines wonderfully and can be removed and replaced entirely with one hand in one simple motion. As with almost any weapon, it's simply a matter of training and what you are accustomed to. Part of the same short sighted myth about bullpup layout weapons being "awkward to reload".

2) I can personally vouch for the compact storage and easy portability of the P90 as a platform for the round. Capable of being comfortably stored short term in a common cargo pants pocket, being one example. When worn in a proper chest sling or stowed in a holster ( I often use a drop pouch for this. A makeshift solution, but fits perfectly and securely.) it can tuck out of the way to allow free use of both hands in a non obstructing manner. Kept on the sling it will allow you to continue other work undistracted, including inside a vehicle, ready to lift and fire, in a way simply not possible with a longer rifle.

3) My P90 is far more sexy than any other gun. Look at those curves.

[Ardune]

I'm gonna throw my weight behind the p90 as well. I own both the ps90 and the FseveN and the ballistic performance of the 5.7x28 can be quite impressive under the right circumstances. Most people who mope about the anemia of the 5.7x28 are absolutely right... about the two commercially available rounds the ss195 and the ss197. Most of the people who compare 5.7x28 to .22lr have never had expirience with the ss190 steel/aluminum core rounds or loaded specialty ammo like EAs trident round. I have personally sent a 5.7x28 BBS through 1/4" steel plate. It's also possible to load 55gr FMJs pushing 1800fps from the FiveseveN. I would be glad to have a p90 with a couple hundred rounds of ss190s if I found myself on the ground.

[Vexgrave Lars]

Does your mom know your playing with guns? Elementals.. Candy coated humans.. Like a bug in its shell.

Of course as a backup
Taurus Raging Bull .454

Edited by Vexgrave Lars, 01 May 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Gunmage]

And still, there's no PDW like a stealth Batlle Armor. I think Nighthawk *** would fit into a standard cockpit.

[ENDMYSUFFERING]

As odd as this may seem, M1 Garand, my favorite gun of all time. It hits like a train and has a good rate of fire. That or a bow and arrow, simply because it is silent and can put a nicely sized hole in anyone without some sort of armor on.

[Seabear]

Colt .45 1911 (or clone thereof) and a K-Bar

[McScwizzy]

My two handed long sword and my .45

Edited by McScwizzy, 01 May 2012 - 10:54 AM.

[Maurice]

A p90 and two clip

[Shezmu]

As a 40K fan it has to be a Boltgun

[Haakon Valravn]

I can see this is going nowhere.

For those of you determined to defend the P90 as anything other than a defensive weapon for truck drivers in Soviet-held West Germany, I could agree with you, but then we'd all be wrong.

For those of you who believe the 5.56mm cartridge is pathetic (some of you doing so while defending the much whimpier 5.7mm cartridge), think that a good paper-shooting round with laughable intermediate barrier performance should replace a slightly less accurate cartridge with awesome intermediate barrier penetration, and other such silliness, you possess amusingly misguided points of view.

Those of you who are not averse to learning more about the effectiveness of current small arms for defensive use from a man who has forgotten more about terminal ballistics than this forum will ever know, distilled by the knowledge of men and women who have been in hot, sandy places and shot people in the face, I urge you to explore the terminal ballistics discussion forums on m4carbine.net and/or lightfighter.net.

Edited by Haakon Valravn, 01 May 2012 - 08:37 PM.

[AlfalphaCat]

Xaoc, on 30 April 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

Chiappa Rhino .357 revolver with underslung blade.

Why wouldn't you just carry a knife too instead of that uselessness?