137 replies to this topic

[Haakon Valravn]

Charles Martel, on 28 April 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

I wouldn't call something that hits like 5.56x45mm at 200m. within it's intended operational range of 100m. "puny". Particularly if using some of Elite Ammunition's little toys which create wound channels only matchable by magnum level traditional handgun rounds.

Elohel. Elite Ammunition is a joke. None of their ammunition performs like they say it does when tested by independently berified labs. Did you read my link?

The 5.7 does less damage than a 9mm FMJ. Which is less damage than the 5.56mm.

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Given that I actually own a Five-Seven handgun and a PS90 semi-auto carbine, and experience in the use of it's P90 cousin I'm pretty aware of what the round can and can't do. The "5.7 is .22WMR" silliness is just that, silliness. Like any other SMG, it's a weapon for when the use of an automatic weapon with an intermediate or full rifle cartridge is not suitable.

Read the article that I linked to.

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Likewise, I own an M-4gery and have used actual M-4 carbines, and their handling characteristics in close quarters are inferior to the P90. In addition, the M-4 fires a cartridge designed for a much longer barreled weapon. Due to it's ridiculously short barrel for a 5.56x45mm weapon, it nullifies most of the ballistic advantages of the more powerful cartridge and reduces the projectile's overall effectiveness.

Your data is out of date. M855 was designed for use with the 20 inch barrel of the M16A2, true. But M855A1, Mk316 Mod 0 (the former used by the Army, the latter by SOCOM and the Marines), and Mk262 Mod 0/1 (issued to marksmen) are designed for barrels as short as 10.3 inches (covering the Mk18, M4/M4A1, M27, SPR, M16A3/M16A4, SAW, &c.). There are also cartridges available designed solely for the short-barreled 5.56mm carbine. Then there is the 6.8mm SPC and the 300 AAC, both designed for shorter barrels (the 6.8 for 12-16 inch barrels, the 300 for 8-14 inch barrels).

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So what's next, the inane 9mm vs. .45/.40/Machismo Magnum .900 or the equally inane 5.56x45mm vs. 7.62x39?

All handhun cartridges are equally puny. (Although they're all equally more capable than the 5.7mm.) Pick one, it is irrelevent which, so long as you go out and get training and put a couple thousand rounds through it every year. The 7.62mm M43 is less versatile than the 5.56mm, but excels it at intermediate barrier penetration.

[DocBach]

Haakon Valravn, on 29 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Elohel. Elite Ammunition is a joke. None of their ammunition performs like they say it does when tested by independently berified labs. Did you read my link?

The 5.7 does less damage than a 9mm FMJ. Which is less damage than the 5.56mm.



Read the article that I linked to.



Your data is out of date. M855 was designed for use with the 20 inch barrel of the M16A2, true. But M855A1, Mk316 Mod 0 (the former used by the Army, the latter by SOCOM and the Marines), and Mk262 Mod 0/1 (issued to marksmen) are designed for barrels as short as 10.3 inches (covering the Mk18, M4/M4A1, M27, SPR, M16A3/M16A4, SAW, &c.). There are also cartridges available designed solely for the short-barreled 5.56mm carbine. Then there is the 6.8mm SPC and the 300 AAC, both designed for shorter barrels (the 6.8 for 12-16 inch barrels, the 300 for 8-14 inch barrels).



All handhun cartridges are equally puny. (Although they're all equally more capable than the 5.7mm.) Pick one, it is irrelevent which, so long as you go out and get training and put a couple thousand rounds through it every year. The 7.62mm M43 is less versatile than the 5.56mm, but excels it at intermediate barrier penetration.

Don't forget Mk 318 Mod 0! Makes defeating pesky barriers like windshields and cars a cinch, even out of 10.3" Mk 16 or 18 barrels!

[Exilyth]

I'd take a PTRD-41.
And a folding spade.

Just kidding...
I'd definitely want something light and unobstrusive, so the most sane choice would probably be a FN P90 or a H&K MP7 and a folding spade ...

[Haakon Valravn]

D'oh!

Meant Mk318.

[Catamount]

Yeah, I have to admit, Haakon, you makes your case on the P90.

The particular thread you linked to wasn't the greatest, to be honest (the sources cited aren't easily accessed/checked either, and this is from someone who has access to 99% of peer-reviewed journals), but further research in places that went into much greater detail, even elaborating more on the same sources, corroborates claims of poor performance for the particular round.


I had no idea that small caliber PDWs were such a failed experiment

[Emily Weiston]

In my home I own a pump action 12 gauge. The sound from of me pumping my gun is more than enough of a deterrent for home invaders.

In Battletech, I would go for the typical generic choice.

Zeus Heavy Rifle.

[neodym]

45acp and 9mm have poor range,accurancy and mainly penetration... also AK47 isnt PDW,theres strong reasons why nobody uses full sized assault rifles inside vehicles

I would choose Korobov TKB22 in 5.45x39mm


despite its super compact size and weight it have full 16.3" long barrel,for comparsion m4 have only 14.5" the long barrel with standart military caliber makes for long range,high stopping power and penetration,even much more than P90
or MP7


I would choose this in holy 6.5mm Grendel but this weapon or any other bull pup doesnt use these

Edited by neodym, 30 April 2012 - 01:01 PM.

[neodym]

Haakon Valravn, on 29 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

The 5.7 does less damage than a 9mm FMJ. Which is less damage than the 5.56mm.

9mm FMJ doesnt do less damage than 5.56,also 5.7 doesnt do less damage than 9mm when it tumbles,and becose these bullets vere designed to do that it happens most of the time so no,9mm isnt stronger stopper

[Serpentine]

A PP-19 or some sort of CQB AUG.

Either that, or a PDW-R, or a Plasma Rifle (Type-52) from Halo.

Edited by Serpentine, 30 April 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Charles Martel]

Haakon Valravn, on 29 April 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

Elohel. Elite Ammunition is a joke. None of their ammunition performs like they say it does when tested by independently berified labs. Did you read my link?

I've concluded the link, to a forum post I might add, is bollocks. And it doesn't mention EA in any fashion. Nevermind that the instant the fool starts talking about mythological unicorns like "stopping power" or "knockdown power" I tend to lose interest. The only "stopper" is a CNS hit, period. For every tale of "it took umpteen rounds of 5.7" I can point out four such tales of any other caliber. Any round out of any firearm can do its intended job provided the meat between the shoes and the trigger can do its job.

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The 5.7 does less damage than a 9mm FMJ. Which is less damage than the 5.56mm.

And yet there's anecdotal evidence of all three failing catastrophically, or more like the aforementioned meat between the shoes and trigger failing catastrophically. Because if they were utilized properly, any of the three would work quite nicely.

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Read the article that I linked to.

Did, its anecdotal evidence dressed up to affirm a predetermined conclusion. People use 5.7mm firearms for purposes ranging from pest control, varmints, self defense, feral hog hunting, deer hunting, and police and military applications. And I haven't seen a "It didn't work on x" tale yet.

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Your data is out of date. M855 was designed for use with the 20 inch barrel of the M16A2, true. But M855A1, Mk316 Mod 0 (the former used by the Army, the latter by SOCOM and the Marines), and Mk262 Mod 0/1 (issued to marksmen) are designed for barrels as short as 10.3 inches (covering the Mk18, M4/M4A1, M27, SPR, M16A3/M16A4, SAW, &c.). There are also cartridges available designed solely for the short-barreled 5.56mm carbine. Then there is the 6.8mm SPC and the 300 AAC, both designed for shorter barrels (the 6.8 for 12-16 inch barrels, the 300 for 8-14 inch barrels).

I am well aware of the variety in AR pattern rifle chamberings. I do own a S&W M&P-15T with the stock upper, a 6.5 Grendel upper,and a 7.62x39 upper. As for the short-barrel variants of 5.56x45, they do require different barrels as the normal 1 in 9 twist will not stabilize the heavier projectiles, which require a 1 in 7 twist. And they still do not match the effectiveness of the original 55gr. projectiles fired through a 1 in 8 twist barrel which produced, spectacular results to put it mildly. As for 6.8, it's 6.5 Grendel's weaker cousin, and .300AAC is reinventing the 7.62x39 wheel.

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All handhun cartridges are equally puny. (Although they're all equally more capable than the 5.7mm.) Pick one, it is irrelevent which, so long as you go out and get training and put a couple thousand rounds through it every year. The 7.62mm M43 is less versatile than the 5.56mm, but excels it at intermediate barrier penetration.

Any round that doesn't make a CNS hit isn't capable of much except making a mess. It's all about the aforementioned meatbag doing their part, the platform and cartridge is immaterial if said meatbag doesn't do their job.

And for defeating barriers, why go with half-measures?

Edited by Charles Martel, 30 April 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Pvt Dancer]

claw hammer.

[Felicitatem Parco]

A crowbar and a few broodsacks of Snarks.

[whiskey tango foxtrot]

Kimber .45 hit what you aim at.

[MrMojoPin]

Darn spell check, I fixed the "Canon " mistake. . . . .

[Felix Dante]

Machete. Tool and a Weapon!

Never underestimate the intimidation factor of a bloody machete!

[Xaoc]

Chiappa Rhino .357 revolver with underslung blade.

[Haakon Valravn]

Points:

1- the 5.56mm does a f___ton more damage than any pistol cartridge, including the 4.6 and 5.7.
2- The post was written by Doctor Gary Roberts, the foremost practical ballistician of our time. He takes a holistic approach to terminal ballistics, including the shooter and weapon, as well as the projectile and what it actually does. He does not propose theories, he speaks with facts, from both his findings and those of other, reputable ballisticians.
3- EA is not covered by the article, because they are not a reputable ammunition manufacturer.
4- The 6.8 SPC was developed and designed by professional face-shooters for professional face-shooters. The 6.5 was designed to shoot hole in paper at long-distances. Further, the 6.8 SPC enjoys much greater popularity, thanks to most AR manufacturers building rifle in the cartridge and many ammunition manufacturers providing quality ammo while more and more bullet manufacturers introduce bullets designed specifically for the 6.8mm.
5- The 300 AAC is not the 7.62 M43 all over. It is the 300 Whisper all over. Both the 300 Whisper and 300 AAC offer superior accuracy to the M43, while simultaneously offering much greater accuracy when used with heavy, sub-sonic bullets. Finally, they both use standard AR-15 magazines, while M43 AR-15s either require a special lower to take AK magazines or they have to use the unreliable magazines designed around the AR-15 lower. The 300 AAC only edges out the Whisper, because the AAC is backed by one of the largest firearms entities in the world.
6- The 1 in 7 twist is standard on the vast majority of 5.56mm military small arms. Exceptions are precision rifles, like the SPR and OBR which use 1 in 8 twist stainless match barrels and obsolescent arms, such as the M16A1 and XM177, which both utilized a 1 in 12 twist matched to the M193 projectile.
7- Mk318 and Mk262 are so much more effective than M193 that it isn't even funny. M855 was a step-back, but the Mk318 in particular is lightyears ahead of any other 5.55mm military projectile. The only one that might be better is the bonded version ATK is making for the FBI.
8- While a CNS shot is the only guarantied one-shot stop, for any projectile, including RPGs, most gun-shot fatalities are caused by organ failure and blood-loss. These are caused by bullets getting sufficient penetration to reach the organs in question and possessing a design that causes maximum wound cavity size. Anything that does not do both, like 9mm FMJ and 5.7mm, will require more rounds, potentially many more rounds, to match the incapacitative capabilities of the fewer number of expanding bullets.
9- I recommend you replace your recoil buffer weight with a Heavy or H2 buffer weight if you have not already done so. It will enhance your carbine's durability and reliability. Might even get you a smoother recoil impulse in the bargain.

[HighlandWolf]

Ninjato style vibroblade/sword, 2 silenced mac10s, Car-15/ak47 w/collapseable stock and a scope. laspistol, all in a small pack with powerpacks and ammunition in the back of my chair

[Pht]

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Laser Pistol (Blazer)



The Blazer Laser Pistol is a pistol version of the popular Blazer Laser Rifle.^[1] Resembling a sawed-off shotgun, it utilizes the same twin laser tube design as the rifle, providing the same devastating firepower in a much smaller package. This has resulted in the pistol being outlawed on many Inner Sphere worlds. Two power packs provide enough energy for five shots, although the barrels can be fired separately, in which case the Blazer functions like a standard Laser Pistol.

http://www.sarna.net...ol_%28Blazer%29

and a whole bunch of energy packs ...

Along with ...

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Blade (Vibro-katana)
The Vibrokatana is a bladed vibro-weapon initially developed for the DEST.^[1] A deadly and elegant weapon, it is more than capable of slicing through Battle Armor. The Vibrokatana has gained popularity with other DCMS units since its first introduction.

http://www.sarna.net...Vibro-katana%29

[GDL Irishwarrior]

Catamount, on 30 April 2012 - 06:35 AM, said:

Yeah, I have to admit, Haakon, you makes your case on the P90.

The particular thread you linked to wasn't the greatest, to be honest (the sources cited aren't easily accessed/checked either, and this is from someone who has access to 99% of peer-reviewed journals), but further research in places that went into much greater detail, even elaborating more on the same sources, corroborates claims of poor performance for the particular round.


I had no idea that small caliber PDWs were such a failed experiment

To be fair, PDW rounds (and, to an extent, the 5.56 - depends on the particular cartridge, as has been pointed out by others) do what they were designed to do quite well - they punch through body armor like tissue paper.
The problem is, they don't do much damage afterwards unless they tumble (which is by no means guaranteed, regardless of what the profit-driven manufacturer says).This especially becomes a problem if the target is not wearing body armor (as is the case with the vast majority of the people we are currently fighting) - without that extra barrier to slow the round down, tumbling is even harder to achieve. There's a reason that some soldiers have reported putting 6+ rounds of 5.56 on unarmored targets just to watch the bad guy run off (I recall reading about this in the Black Hawk Down book; go about 3/4 down this page). Now, granted, there are variations of these rounds designed to be more effective (Like the MK318 MOD 0 mentioned above) - however, these are not standard issue, and may never be.