24 replies to this topic

[MrDerp]

I think its pretty much the general opinion at this point that the heat system is boring, and I have an idea that I think will greatly add to the depth of the gameplay. I'm thinking there could be an optional 'advanced heat mode' for those wanting something more complex.

The basic idea is to build on the current system but with one major change. This:
T (t) = T_e + (T₀ − T_e ) e ^{- kt}
Newton's law of cooling.

The idea behind this equation is that the heat dissipates faster the higher the temperature becomes. This might not seem to make much of difference by itself, but when you, say, add penalties to movement and other things for being at higher heat, things become interesting very fast.

These two things create a very simple concept: running your mech hotter lets you fire your weapons more often, but at a penalty to defense. The temperature you chose to run your mech at determines how aggressive or reckless you play. This becomes more interesting when you get creative with the different heat penalties given.


Here are a few ideas for heat penalties:

-Reduced movement speed
Pretty obvious. This was in other mechwarrior games, but I would like to see this become more extreme at extremely high temperatures like in battletech.

-Reduced torso and arm speed
This isnt battletech, so you cant just reduce the probability of hitting with a dice roll, but you can however make it more difficult to aim. By making the torso and arms slightly more sluggish, aiming can become more difficult (and require that much more skill).

-Hud scramble/shutdown
Also in other mechwarrior games, the hud stars to go all goofy at high heat (or when hit with ppc). But again I think this should go a step further. At the most extreme temperatures I think the hud should shut down completely, making the pilot have to shoot completely by feel. Also something that would add a really cool skill/immersion element to the game. Would also provide a very obvious visual warning before the mech shuts down completely.

(These next ideas are a little more out there, and would make maybe make it too complex)
-Weapon damage
A new but simple idea. At very high temperatures there is a chance that firing a weapon will damage it, increasing its cycle time permanently. This adds an extra element of risk to running at extremely high temperatures. It could also be possible to damage a weapon multiple times to the point where it becomes completely broken. Again this would only happen at rather high temps and increase in frequency the hotter you run.

-Internal structure damage
At very high temps firing your weapons will cause internal damage to your own mech by damaging the internal armor slightly wherever the weapon is located. Rather than being a dice roll, it would make more sense for this to start happening at a certain temp and increase in damage the hotter you get. Again this would only be a small amount of damage. I think that weapons which generate more heat would naturally do more damage. For instance a gauss would do pretty much nothing, and a ppc would do comparatively a lot more. This makes this a possible counter to ammo explosion damage, since energy weapons do not have that risk.

But I dont think ammo explosions from heat would really be a good idea at all, lol.

Anyway, I think thats enough for one post. Basically, this system would add a level of depth to mech design and gameplay, allowing the player to plan at what heat range he/she wants to play at.

What do you peeps think?

Edited by MrDerp, 15 March 2013 - 10:31 PM.

[Spirit of the Wolf]

This is...
actually fairly interesting.

Huh.

I never thought of doing this, (and I can't even begin to imagine the coding this would involve), but this sounds like it would add a huge amount of not only realism, but also individual styling to how people pilot their mechs.

Personally, I think that the heat system is fine right now, (well, with a few misgivings, but then again, BETA is BETA), but this would also be interesting to have in the game.

On the other hand, this would also make the game much more difficult to learn, so I don't think PGI would do this very soon. Maybe once they figure out how to separate, say, causal players, from hardcore gamers, they might create a toggle option so that you could only play on servers where this heat system is implemented, but I don't think that having this for ALL players would be a good idea. Some people probably wouldn't be able to handle the complexity. (For example: I can't play Sims games, or EVE online -- too much to keep track of at once, but I can manage my heat just fine in this game.)

As you said, however, having people use individual play styles for this mechanic could work quite well.

Anyone else wanna discuss this?

[MrDerp]

Spirit of the Wolf, on 16 November 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

This is... actually fairly interesting. Huh. I never thought of doing this, (and I can't even begin to imagine the coding this would involve), but this sounds like it would add a huge amount of not only realism, but also individual styling to how people pilot their mechs. Personally, I think that the heat system is fine right now, (well, with a few misgivings, but then again, BETA is BETA), but this would also be interesting to have in the game. On the other hand, this would also make the game much more difficult to learn, so I don't think PGI would do this very soon. Maybe once they figure out how to separate, say, causal players, from hardcore gamers, they might create a toggle option so that you could only play on servers where this heat system is implemented, but I don't think that having this for ALL players would be a good idea. Some people probably wouldn't be able to handle the complexity. (For example: I can't play Sims games, or EVE online -- too much to keep track of at once, but I can manage my heat just fine in this game.) As you said, however, having people use individual play styles for this mechanic could work quite well. Anyone else wanna discuss this?

I agree, I actually kind of like the simplicity of the heat system at the moment. Its a bit weird but it is easy to grasp and gets the job done alright. I also think that complicating it too much will make it a bit of a turn off to new or less skilled gamers. I like the idea of having an advanced heat mode too.

I think it would work on the whole though, because the concept is simple enough.
More heat --> harder to stay alive and is more risky
I think it wouldn't take long for people to get a knack for exactly how to manage the system and to know when they are building up too much heat for the style they want to play.

[ZeligTuritto]

I wouldn't mind if this was implemented. What if when you run hotter special things would happen to your weapons as well? Like your ballistics would be firing hotter slugs and so would bypass armor easier from the increased shock to it. While lasers could get a stronger but less focused beam or something. Missiles i guess would fly faster? The trade off would be, aside from what the OP said, your armor would be softer from the heat and work less effectively.

These benefits could increase the hotter the mech runs i guess.

[MrDerp]

ZeligTuritto, on 18 November 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

I wouldn't mind if this was implemented. What if when you run hotter special things would happen to your weapons as well? Like your ballistics would be firing hotter slugs and so would bypass armor easier from the increased shock to it. While lasers could get a stronger but less focused beam or something. Missiles i guess would fly faster? The trade off would be, aside from what the OP said, your armor would be softer from the heat and work less effectively.

These benefits could increase the hotter the mech runs i guess.

I think as a rule it would be better to just keep it as simple is possible, though I actually did think of a few of these.

I think the most interesting one would be to make your armor weaker at very high temps. The only problem with this is that in general the game will become more offensive and survivability will go down. Having to rebalance that wouldn't be fun.

[MrDerp]

Bumpin dis cuz of boredom.

[focuspark]

As a professional software engineer I can attest that this would be easy to code. The hard part would be balancing it and making a fun game play mechanic.

Also, cooling rate is affected by the delta and insulation between the source and the sink, not the actual temperature of the source.

[MrDerp]

Well, the delta between the source and the sink increases as the temp increases relative to the outside air.

If I'm correct in assuming what you mean by delta, lol.

[MrDerp]

derp

[MrDerp]

Bumping to see what people think about this now. Its been a while.

[Hotthedd]

I like the penalties, but disagree with the benefits.

Internal Structure would never melt at the temperatures generated from firing weapons. It is DESIGNED to be a weapons platform.

Ammo explosions, OTOH, COULD be a possibility from extreme overheating (CASE could mitigate this possibility)

[UberFubarius]

I actually like the current simplistic system. The argument I would give is that the heat-sink in mechwarriors aren't passive. Instead, they have a heat-pump that maintain the head-sink themselves at the optimal temperature to dissipate their heat.

In short, mechwarrior's heat management system works like an refrigerator of sorts.

[Zyllos]

While I am not on board with your suggestions on how to implement heat penalties. I am 100% on board with adding heat penalties.

[Phaesphoros]

I've also thought about this - BUT: there's no indicator for temperature. There's an indicator for % heat.
What do you think is easier to use/read for pilots? Linear or exponential scale? The penalties is another topic, there's a dedicated suggestion for this.

[MrDerp]

Hotthedd, on 08 March 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

I like the penalties, but disagree with the benefits.

Internal Structure would never melt at the temperatures generated from firing weapons. It is DESIGNED to be a weapons platform.

Ammo explosions, OTOH, COULD be a possibility from extreme overheating (CASE could mitigate this possibility)

I thought the idea behind the shutdown of the mech was to protect it from damaging itself. I guarantee there would be a way to overheat the internal structure. Theres always a way haha.

Phaesphoros, on 08 March 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I've also thought about this - BUT: there's no indicator for temperature. There's an indicator for % heat.
What do you think is easier to use/read for pilots? Linear or exponential scale? The penalties is another topic, there's a dedicated suggestion for this.

I think linear is much easier to understand. And i take % heat and temperature to be the same thing.

[Karl Streiger]

Please make the Yes, No, Abstaind Poll...I want to click "YES"

[Hotthedd]

MrDerp, on 12 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I thought the idea behind the shutdown of the mech was to protect it from damaging itself. I guarantee there would be a way to overheat the internal structure. Theres always a way haha.



I think linear is much easier to understand. And i take % heat and temperature to be the same thing.

My point being that the engine and weapons are not as durable as the frame, and although the internal structure COULD theoretically melt, by the time that happened it would be the LEAST of your worries.

[Donas]

MrDerp, on 12 March 2013 - 06:09 AM, said:

I guarantee there would be a way to overheat the internal structure. Theres always a way haha.

There all ready is. Fusion Reactor Explosion. lol

[UberFubarius]

I was hoping that there's more detailed voting breakdown. Here are my thoughts.
1. On non-linear heat scale: No
My reasoning is that a linear, percentage based heat scale is easier for player to understand. The linear-ness of the heat dissipation and heat gain could be explained with mechs using heat-pump to maintain the heatsink at a specific high temperature (essentially, regardless of internal temperature, the heatsink is kept at a set high temperature whenever there's heat to be dissipated).

2 Heat penalty: Partial Yes
The heat requirement before the penalty set in should be pretty high.

[Elessar]

Sure, sounds definitely better than the current system ...
at the moment there is totally no incentive to care for heat unless you are already close to 100%

Edited by Elessar, 12 March 2013 - 08:56 AM.