2926 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

As Agent of Change pointed out:

Quote

Many of us invested in the founders program based on the game we were told would be made, a first person mech SIM. The devs written dedication to the first-person only perspective was a large reason i committed to this game vs. just waiting for mech-commander.

If there had been even the slightest hint of 3PV for MWO when it surfaced, they would not have gotten ANY of my time or money. Also, if I want to play a 3pv GAME, I'm playing Mario Cart, not a mech game.

I will vote with my funds depending on what gets done vis-a-vis 3rd Person View. And remember, there is strength in numbers. Over at EVE, there is a slight urinary olympics going on about something that has induced, at last count, 300k players to place their accounts into suspension as a boycott.

[Gunny McDuck]

Gremlich Johns, on 26 November 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I will vote with my funds depending on what gets done vis-a-vis 3rd Person View. And remember, there is strength in numbers. Over at EVE, there is a slight urinary olympics going on about something that has induced, at last count, 300k players to place their accounts into suspension as a boycott.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Alois Hammer]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Gunny, I'm not even going to validate your post with an explanation. However, the data that you request does exist,

Screenshots or stop farting and claiming it's talking.

[Kavoh]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Can you do us all a huge favor and stop whining there Agent of Change? What you are doing here is making an excuse to why you have to have the game a certain way. Stop trying to guilt trip the devs. They will make this the MechWarrior®: Online that they want it to be, and if you are going to threaten to rage quit after every update then maybe you should just uninstall. Maybe you should open your mind to new possibilities of gameplay, instead of being so narrow minded. 3PV does not mean mech commander and it does not mean mech assault, it doesn't necessarily mean anything that has been previously done.

Your ignorance toward 3PV is dumbfounding, and what you need to do is play MechWarrior 4 Vengeance and Mercenaries for 12 years and in over 10 active leagues with 10,000+ members, that all use 3rd Person View, including TWL, this was in 2001. Aswell, as leagues using First Person View, each view has its own viable gameplay, and as anyone can tell you 3rd Person View Pilots have always been Better Pilots. Personally I can play either way, but your ignorance and closed mindedness is extremely annoying.

Instead of whining about changes, learn to adapt. A true pilot can play in any view

People have picked your post apart enough as it is, but I will just cap it off with this. Whether or not 3rd person pilots were better is irrelevant. You are not a better pilot. You weren't more skilled. You didn't outplay ANYONE. You ABUSED 3rd person view, had LoS on people who couldn't even see you, and you peaked around corners/poptarted/JJ sniped. If people claim to be hardcore 3pv players, then they abused those three things to death. Not skill my friend, you will survive with 1st person.

Edited by Kavoh, 26 November 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[JadeViper]

*If you are a forum troll and don't care to read this entire post, just read the last 2 paragraphs. kthx. For those who stick around, this is an arbitration for sanity, and I want to provide a constructive foundation for a real discussion.


I must admit I'm shocked at the concerns arisen by the mere thought of an additional perspective. The prevailing concerns from some 800+ posts I think boil into 3 categories:

1) Unfair visual advantage, and
2) It not what the devs originally "promised".
3) This is mechwarrior, not mech assault (or some similar title)

Of those, I give the most weight to #1. #2 and 3; Dev ideals have to change as the game develops. MWO isn't in its infancy anymore, nor is it solely ideas on paper, but is growing very quickly, and the devs are learning thing about the growing community. The Devs need to stay true to the game our game don't get me wrong. But allowing someone to use a tool (eg camera angle) to assist the learning curve will not directly impact us.

Hold your fury for a sec: Me saying it will not directly impact us is saying that we are not forced to use it. You and I will never even notice its there outside of a new keybind on the options list. The concern is how it Indirectly affects us, the 1st person players, bringing us to number 1: how someone could use a 3rd person camera to gain a significantly unfair advantage. To this point is where my devil's advocacy appears.

Lets say, just for a moment, we all let go of our [likely vindicated] grudge against 3rd person. If the devs can find a unique way to implement a 3rd person camera that does not create "a significantly unfair advantage," but enables new players to get a feel for a mechwarrior franchise game, why the heck not? Its still a fair game in this hypothetical, and us vet MechWarriors now invite tacticians and Commanders to join us on the field! My game isn't affected, and now MWO has open a new gateway for a very large group of players who do, in fact, have significant trouble learning leg/torso/arm mechanics. As Russ has summarized in his apparently sparingly-listened-to pod cast posted on page 1, MWO, in order to grow to the scale they intended in their original game design, needs to open the door to new gamers. Currently, the biggest roadblock is the leg/torso/arm mechanic that vet Mechwarriors take for granted. 3rd person would enable these new players to mount that learning curve with meaningful, immidiate, visual feedback; not just some cryptic UI icon and arrow. The devs can and live up to the game they promised us, to the scale they promised us, but all the entrenched nay-sayers want to curtail MWO's growth on an arbitrary fear. Russ, to his own admission was an entrenched , vocal anti-3rd person dev. He has, perhaps begrudgingly, seen the light that this option can have a big, big positive impact on the community.

Why not give the Devs a chance to pull it off? Who are we to assume they can't find a way to implement a 3rd person cam without it being unfair. Just because Microsoft and EA failed with a balanced multiplayer cam doesn't mean devs here can't succeed where they failed, or at very least mitigate the 'advantage' enough that it will not effect talented pilots.

I don't think a tutorial will do the trick. Few can learn to play a game like MWO without the O. Mechwarrior especially! Its like asking someone to learn to Raid in an mmorpg without playing with other people; It's insane. You need to be playing with and against pros... but not getting frustrated because they can't understand how the legs and torso work independently without seeing it. No its not mech assault. It never will be, even if that guy over there uses an outside cam. You, the founder, will never, ever see it! Get off your high horse and let some newbies come join the fray! It wont affect you!

The caveat being the devs are given the opportunity, with the current community, to test out potential camera systems to find the flaws and tweak tweak tweak! The blokes interviewing Russ in the podcast could even, on the spot, come up with some potential cameras that could be fair if implemented soundly.

I submit to those who shout "NO!" to helping us grow MWO and open the game to players with other backgrounds, to give an example, specifically, in MWO, of how you've seen 3rd person abused. Yeah, no examples yet are out there...

So let's let the Dev's give their go at introducing a new, fair camera that could only help them achieve their original grand vision. I'd much rather see them release a 3rd person cam, us play-test it, they fix it, and if it doesn't work out, if we find empirical evidence it is abusive, yank it. But we'd be remiss to potentially pass over a huge game booster without even testing it! This is BETA! That's what we do!

If we can then find abuse after we've tried it, and tried to fix it but it's still abuseable, then heck yeah ban it! But until proven faulty, let's embrace this potentially invaluable recruiting tool.

Edited by JadeViper, 26 November 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Gremlich Johns]

Gunny McDuck, on 26 November 2012 - 12:32 PM, said:

Can you elaborate on this?

sorry, vote by not spending any further.

[ghos t in the shel l]

BAN FIRST PERSON VIEW!

[Pr8Dator]

There's been enough cases of 3PS cheating in FPS online games to not make the same mistake here!

[Xander Pappyson]

Lt Shortcut, on 26 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Obvious troll is obvious.

How is being more expediences at a particular game put you on a different level. Mechwarrior 4 was a broken POS. So what level does that put you on. Honestly, why do you poke, troll.

Edited by Xander Pappyson, 26 November 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Kavoh]

JadeViper, on 26 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

*If you are a forum troll and don't care to read this entire post, just read the last 2 paragraphs. kthx. For those who stick around, this is an arbitration for sanity, and I want to provide a constructive foundation for a real discussion.


I must admit I'm shocked at the concerns arisen by the mere thought of an additional perspective. The prevailing concerns from some 800+ posts I think boil into 3 categories:

1) Unfair visual advantage, and
2) It not what the devs originally "promised".
3) This is mechwarrior, not mech assault (or some similar title)

Of those, I give the most weight to #1. #2 and 3; Dev ideals have to change as the game develops. MWO isn't in its infancy anymore, nor is it solely ideas on paper, but is growing very quickly, and the devs are learning thing about the growing community. The Devs need to stay true to the game our game don't get me wrong. But allowing someone to use a tool (eg camera angle) to assist the learning curve will not directly impact us.

Hold your fury for a sec: Me saying it will not directly impact us is saying that we are not forced to use it. You and I will never even notice its there outside of a new keybind on the options list. The concern is how it Indirectly affects us, the 1st person players, bringing us to number 1: how someone could use a 3rd person camera to gain a significantly unfair advantage. To this point is where my devil's advocacy appears.

Lets say, just for a moment, we all let go of our [likely vindicated] grudge against 3rd person. If the devs can find a unique way to implement a 3rd person camera that does not create "a significantly unfair advantage," but enables new players to get a feel for a mechwarrior franchise game, why the heck not? Its still a fair game in this hypothetical, and us vet MechWarriors now invite tacticians and Commanders to join us on the field! My game isn't affected, and now MWO has open a new gateway for a very large group of players who do, in fact, have significant trouble learning leg/torso/arm mechanics. As Russ has summarized in his apparently sparingly-listened-to pod cast posted on page 1, MWO, in order to grow to the scale they intended in their original game design, needs to open the door to new gamers. Currently, the biggest roadblock is the leg/torso/arm mechanic that vet Mechwarriors take for granted. 3rd person would enable these new players to mount that learning curve with meaningful, immidiate, visual feedback; not just some cryptic UI icon and arrow. The devs can and live up to the game they promised us, to the scale they promised us, but all the entrenched nay-sayers want to curtail MWO's growth on an arbitrary fear. Russ, to his own admission was an entrenched , vocal anti-3rd person dev. He has, perhaps begrudgingly, seen the light that this option can have a big, big positive impact on the community.

Why not give the Devs a chance to pull it off? Who are we to assume they can't find a way to implement a 3rd person cam without it being unfair. Just because Microsoft and EA failed with a balanced multiplayer cam doesn't mean devs here can't succeed where they failed, or at very least mitigate the 'advantage' enough that it will not effect talented pilots.

I don't think a tutorial will do the trick. Few can learn to play a game like MWO without the O. Mechwarrior especially! Its like asking someone to learn to Raid in an mmorpg without playing with other people; It's insane. You need to be playing with and against pros... but not getting frustrated because they can't understand how the legs and torso work independently without seeing it. No its not mech assault. It never will be, even if that guy over there uses an outside cam. You, the founder, will never, ever see it! Get off your high horse and let some newbies come join the fray! It wont affect you!

The caveat being the devs are given the opportunity, with the current community, to test out potential camera systems to find the flaws and tweak tweak tweak! The blokes interviewing Russ in the podcast could even, on the spot, come up with some potential cameras that could be fair if implemented soundly.

I submit to those who shout "NO!" to helping us grow MWO and open the game to players with other backgrounds, to give an example, specifically, in MWO, of how you've seen 3rd person abused. Yeah, no examples yet are out there...

So let's let the Dev's give their go at introducing a new, fair camera that could only help them achieve their original grand vision. I'd much rather see them release a 3rd person cam, us play-test it, they fix it, and if it doesn't work out, if we find empirical evidence it is abusive, yank it. But we'd be remiss to potentially pass over a huge game booster without even testing it! This is BETA! That's what we do!

If we can then find abuse after we've tried it, and tried to fix it but it's still abuseable, then heck yeah ban it! But until proven faulty, let's embrace this potentially invaluable recruiting tool.

I understand your post, but all I can say is, making an entirely new view that people are so adamantly against, for such a RIDICULOUS reason as "helping new players" is ignorant. There is not ONE situation where a newbie will NEED third person to understand this game. Not ONE.

You don't need MWO to have 3rd person to have examples. This is almost identical to past mechwarriors games, minus more armor and different weapon properties. 3rd person was nice for single player, but was a DISASTER in multiplayer. Its been stated many, many, MANY times. Once its implemented, its in, done, staying for good. They won't introduce something and then completely remove it, cause that will just cause even more issues. Don't give them the foot in the door.

The only "steep" (and I use this EXTREMELY lightly) learning curve this game has, is how weapons and their heat/ammo function and the stats behind them. Everything else is common sense, or has HUD displays or information already implemented to aid you.

Edited by Kavoh, 26 November 2012 - 09:01 PM.

[Agent of Change]

JadeViper, on 26 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

..Snip for space.. referencing the last post form this user...

Wonderful thoughts and well put, that said I have to differ with you on several points. I would love to give this post the full and thorough response it deserves, but I am tired and if I don't respond now I will forget so forgive me for brevity.

First off I agree with you that these devs in looking at the past mistakes and implementations of 3pv might could actually pull off a 3pv that isn't game breaking or unfair, I am in fact open to that idea and if they could do it that's great, however it still would not necessarily belong in this game.

Lets look at the reasoning: Helping new players understand the mechanics of the torso twist.

Now I don't get me wrong i have a generally dim view of my fellow man but I am absolutely not buying into the fact that a large number of people who would play this game are too stupid, incompetent or lazy to be able to handle the movement and aiming mechanics in this game without being given a 3pv option. We are talking about gamers here, people who routinely spend a lot of time picking up new mechanics and approaches on a regular basis, if anything it is arrogant to believe (for us or the devs) that the concepts in MW:O are unattainable without a visual crutch (which 3pv would be in the instance of "helping new players"). This is further compounded by a lack of any legitimate interactive tutorial int he current control set (which would solve most of the issue if implemented reasonably well, I mean passably not even above average). So at the core I challenge the base assumption we are being fed as the reason for this "consideration" because there are other options that have not even been tried or really mentioned to us publicly which leads me too...

Your point's 2.It not what the devs originally "promised". believe it or not this is a big one and everyone should be concerned about this. While yes a game design needs to evolve it doesn't necessarily need to shift off of it's core pillars at least not without a fight. The fact that the core motivation for the consideration of 3pv has numerous arguably simpler solutions make this approach seem disingenuous, and more so when you consider that what they tell us here "no decision has been made" is at odds with the emphasis and the "this is how we would do it" when talking to external media. I'm not saying the devs are beholden to us for everything but I feel we should have some real honesty and clear unambiguous wording when discussing something that is essentially game changing and a sign that they nothing will be held as unchangeable. Additionally there is the splitting the community thing but for space you can read my earlier posts.

I'm not trying to be chicken little here I just very strongly feel that this is an issue that potentially shake my confidence in the developers commitment to their own work as they firmly put it forth to the original community and if my confidence int eh devs gets shaken so goes my confidence in the game.

TLDR: I would have the devs stand by their work and try other approaches to remedy the "issue" they see here, a failure to do so is an indictment of their commitment to the vision they sold us originally.

[McKhaye]

Kavoh, on 26 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

I understand your post, but all I can say is, making an entirely new view that people are so adamantly against, for such a RIDICULOUS reason as "helping new players" is ignorant. There is not ONE situation where a newbie will NEED third person to understand this game. Not ONE.

So you're effectively saying the devs are idiots and there's no reason in any situation they could possibly be right in considering third person view.

[Kavoh]

McKhaye, on 26 November 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

So you're effectively saying the devs are idiots and there's no reason in any situation they could possibly be right in considering third person view.

What I am saying is that this phantom "large amount of people" emailing them because they cant figure out torso/leg orientation without 3rd person is ********.

[Rejarial Galatan]

i personally am not calling them idiots, but, i am one person among many saying that there is no reason this game should or needs a third person view. more to the point, third person wont fix squat, it is that simple. the utter lack of a playable tutorial is what is causing the console kids to cry foul and want third person. add a tutorial and ALOT of problems will be fixed with not knowing why your face is aimed one way while your legs head another way. also, would have thought that:

1. walking forward and looking at and talking to the person directly to your right side or left side would have taught you this.
2. driving a car, and merging into/out of traffic as well.

i mean, it is THAT simple to figure out that which way you are LOOKING is NOT guaranteed to be the SAME way you are MOVING.

[Sean von Steinike]

The near brain dead, third person view children can't figure out how to walk and turn their head to the left or right at the same time apparently Rejarial. How they manage to survive in real life without the ***** 3rd person view is beyond me.

Edited by Sean von Steinike, 27 November 2012 - 03:59 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Sean it scares me as well.

[Talys]

Is this still being considered? I am a new player currently considering putting money into this game and also talking it up to friends and family. First person is not a learning hindrance it is a major selling point. If a third person option is added I will likely opt out. What does add to the learning curve is being thrown straight into the fight and having to learn on the fly. As much as I'd like to roam around and get a handle on things, I feel the need to be an asset to the team and help out as much as I can, which pushes you into the fray. Learning becomes a difficult task when being hunted down by a drive-by jenner or taken out with LRMs.

Put in a tutorial, give me an area to practice in with some targets etc. maybe add a small wireframe of my mech in the hud to better see torso direction then give me a beater of a mech to get my ears wet. If people want to see the outside of their mechs give them a 360 view in the Mechlab but please don't go with third person. I for one will only invest in this game if it remains sim oriented and first person.

clink clink

Edited by Talys, 26 November 2012 - 11:31 PM.

[RFMarine]

in the podcast, one possible solution discussed was a matchmaker setting. in the options you can set the matchmaker to all 1st person only or 1st and 3rd person. so if you never ever want to fight against people who might be using 3rd person that could be arranged

another possible solution was a non movable over the shoulder or hip camera which does give 3rd person view but limits the OP or overpowering advantage it brings

[CoreHunter]

It would be a bit to late to ask for a refund if they put 3pv in would it?

[SilverKnight]

I am a longtime MechVet, and honestly I can agree after playing for as long as I have that I never did good at any game where you are playing in the 3rd person. First Person is more immersive and gives you the feel of you being in control of the mech - It makes you put your head on a swivel and pay attention to whats around you. I'm constantly paranoid that I'm missing something in first person and it adds to the feel of 'I should be looking around and keep moving.' instead of sitting static and just panning my camera around like you can in a third person game. that and it takes the skill out of the game. It takes skill ot know how to counter-turn, how to aim on the fly with a limited view and even keeping lasers on target. Not to mention it's less 'personal' you get to see the cockpit, and you get to see more detail in the game world since your computer'll have one less mech to render in the game. (not to mention things like cockpit shaking when hit by AC's and missiles would be pointless in third person.)

If we get the chance to only play against people with 1st person? I know what option will be ticked and stay ticked. If there's no choice? I'm going to hate to walk away from a game I've dropped more money into than I'd like to admit.

My two cred's worth.