2926 replies to this topic

[ThunderHart]

Not a good idea lets not go down that road this is a first person shooter its fine their are number of other things that need to-be focused on.

I say continue the course and do not get distracted.

Edited by ThunderHart, 26 November 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[grayson marik]

Agent of Change, on 26 November 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

I've said it before but I see the implementation of a 3rd person view (in any form) a turning point in the development of the game for the following reasons.

• Many of us invested in the founders program based on the game we were told would be made, a first person mech SIM. The devs written dedication to the first-person only perspective was a large reason i committed to this game vs. just waiting for mech-commander.
  
• If the devs are willing to seriously consider implenting something they were so clearly against previously it shakes my faith in the fact that this game will remain in any way something i want to play in the long run. If they can compromise on this one fundamental aspect I can't imagine anything they will eventually not compromise on.
  
• Even if it is implemented in a "new player only" way it will still not solve the problem when you dump them in first person, It seems to me a lack of willingness to try alternate approaches to improving the new player experience and learning curve... unless 3rd person isn't about the new player experience but trying to draw in new players at the expense of current players.
  
• The argument that it "won't affect you because you never have use 3rd person or play against it if you don't want to" Is grade A BS. If they (IGP/PGI) push for this and implement a split (a further split than the teams vs. pugs) you will have 2 to 3 pools for each side (pugs/teams) so instead of having one player pool (and lets face it this game is niche) that could get reasonably large that pool will be split 4 to 6 ways. What happens when 1 or two of those 6 pools becomes to small to be worth supporting, they roll it into the others and we end with at best forced mixed play.
  
• Lastly the way we are being addressed about this, the forum community is being told " no decision has been made, we are investigating" but the tone of external interviews, the language chosen, and the fact that no other options for improving the "new player experience" are being openly discussed by the dev team makes it fairly clear that while "No decision to implement 3rd person has been made yet" the silent follow on to that statement is "we are going to make the decision to implement it as soon as it's ready to go live".

Exactly this, very well written!

[ghos t in the shel l]

Can you do us all a huge favor and stop whining there Agent of Change? What you are doing here is making an excuse to why you have to have the game a certain way. Stop trying to guilt trip the devs. They will make this the MechWarrior®: Online that they want it to be, and if you are going to threaten to rage quit after every update then maybe you should just uninstall. Maybe you should open your mind to new possibilities of gameplay, instead of being so narrow minded. 3PV does not mean mech commander and it does not mean mech assault, it doesn't necessarily mean anything that has been previously done.

Your ignorance toward 3PV is dumbfounding, and what you need to do is play MechWarrior 4 Vengeance and Mercenaries for 12 years and in over 10 active leagues with 10,000+ members, that all use 3rd Person View, including TWL, this was in 2001. Aswell, as leagues using First Person View, each view has its own viable gameplay, and as anyone can tell you 3rd Person View Pilots have always been Better Pilots. Personally I can play either way, but your ignorance and closed mindedness is extremely annoying.

Instead of whining about changes, learn to adapt. A true pilot can play in any view

[Alois Hammer]

Agent of Change, on 26 November 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

• Lastly the way we are being addressed about this, the forum community is being told " no decision has been made, we are investigating" but the tone of external interviews, the language chosen, and the fact that no other options for improving the "new player experience" are being openly discussed by the dev team makes it fairly clear that while "No decision to implement 3rd person has been made yet" the silent follow on to that statement is "we are going to make the decision to implement it as soon as it's ready to go live".

Exactly, and this is most of the problem: Repeated messages with 3 lines devoted to "We're not doing this" then an entire follow-on page of "But if we did, we'd factor in..." followed by what is obviously the result of some serious thought about how to do what they're "not" doing.

Pfft...not now maybe, but these mealy-mouthed lawyerese "and we'll make sure it's done right" speeches make one thing abundantly clear: There is no question about "whether" third-person view will be implemented, only about when it will happen. And about whether they really will allow us to split the player base into first-person only and third-person only, or if that will go the way of "first-person...pillar of the design, which third-person breaks."

And I really expect, at best, "Okay, third-person on [date], and we'll try to have the option to drop in only first or only third person by some indeterminate point in the future." ("Okay guys, I think they bought it. Now how long do we have to make excuses for the 'this way only' switch before it blows over and we can move forward with the third-person game we're here to cash in on?")

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Instead of whining about changes, learn to adapt. A true pilot can play in any view

A true pilot wouldn't be caught dead anywhere except in the cockpit.

Edited by Alois Hammer, 26 November 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Dalorante Corbanis]

MECHWARRIOR online = simulation 1er personne (vue pilote)

3em personne = jeux arcade.

[Gunny McDuck]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Can you do us all a huge favor and stop whining there Agent of Change? What you are doing here is making an excuse to why you have to have the game a certain way. Stop trying to guilt trip the devs. They will make this the MechWarrior®: Online that they want it to be, and if you are going to threaten to rage quit after every update then maybe you should just uninstall. Maybe you should open your mind to new possibilities of gameplay, instead of being so narrow minded. 3PV does not mean mech commander and it does not mean mech assault, it doesn't necessarily mean anything that has been previously done.

Why should he have to adapt when he was promised a certain thing and was sold, quite literally, on a mech sim with no 3rd person view, as were (apparently) the overwhelming majority of people that have posted in this thread and (self-selected) to participate in the poll?

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

.... and as anyone can tell you 3rd Person View Pilots have always been Better Pilots.

Citation needed.
Empirical data required.
In other words, show me statistics that validate your statement; i.e. 3rd person vs. 1st person accuracy statistics, win/loss, k/d, something.
Sorry, you can't make a statement like that and not back it up with data.

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Instead of whining about changes, learn to adapt. A true pilot can play in any view

A "true pilot" shouldn't have to.
A "true pilot" should play in the most realistic way possible, as close to what it would actually be like.

Also, after going to your page, I can say with some certainty that you're here arguing about this because your Outfit apparently had some success in previous MechWarrior games where the predominant online experience was in 3rd person.

It isn't to much of a stretch to say that you want things back to the way it was when you were winning.
Not to say (well....lets not go into that, shall we ) that you aren't successful now, but anyone can understand wanting to recapture past glory.

Just be up front about it.

Oh, and on a related note, lets not start accusing other people of whining, shall we?
Glass houses and such?

Edited by Gunny McDuck, 26 November 2012 - 09:19 AM.

[Gunny McDuck]

Dalorante Corbanis, on 26 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

MECHWARRIOR online = simulation 1er personne (vue pilote)

3em personne = jeux arcade.

I'd have to say that this sounds better in French.
Full disclosure, I work for Orange, so that isn't something I say a lot.

[FLes]

Alois Hammer, on 26 November 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

A true pilot wouldn't be caught dead anywhere except in the cockpit.

Checkmate.

Edited by FLes, 26 November 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[ghos t in the shel l]

Gunny, I'm not even going to validate your post with an explanation. However, the data that you request does exist, and this is in reference to the game MechWarrior 4, as an example of 3rd Person vs First Person gameplay. If you have no experience with that game you wouldn't understand, as I understand you are new to MechWarrior, so I wouldn't expect you to be on the same level as me.

[Gunny McDuck]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Gunny, I'm not even going to validate your post with an explanation. However, the data that you request does exist, and this is in reference to the game MechWarrior 4, as an example of 3rd Person vs First Person gameplay.

Ah, a personal attack instead of data, a stunning validation of your point.
Thanks for that, it confirmed a couple other assumptions I was making.

All you need to do is provide your source, be it a text file, an Access or SQL database, or some website where such data can be minded by an end-user.

Mechwarrior games aside, I generally can't STAND 3rd person view games.
I tried playing Gears of War and I couldn't stand that 3rd person over the shoulder view.
I grew up playing Wolfenstein and Doom and whatnot, all FPP.
When I play an occasional driving game, I am always in the car instead of behind it.
Playing MS Flight Simulator waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the day, again before you were born, I was in the cockpit, not outside the plane.

There is a 3PP button in PS2, and aside from occasionally using it to see how close I am to some of the other birds when orbiting a base providing air cover I only use FPP.

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

If you have no experience with that game you wouldn't understand, as I understand you are new to MechWarrior, so I wouldn't expect you to be on the same level as me.

I was playing MW1 before you were even alive since it was released either the year of, or the year before you were born, so.....yeah......unless you were an infant piloting Locusts and Battlemasters......

[McKhaye]

Nothing has eroded my faith in this community more than this thread.

I feel like I have to translate the OP because reading comprehension is so crap around here.

"Over the course of development, we’ve had a huge number of requests for a 3^rd person camera option. At this early stage, it’s something we feel that warrants further analysis, understanding and exploration"

= Hey! Some people want 3rd person views, seems like it might help out with some problems we're having. And if it might help out with those problems, then we're gonna think about it!

"MechWarrior Online is, and will always be, a game focused on 1st person combat in Mechs. That experience is sacrosanct to the classic Mechwarrior experience."

= But hey, whoah. We know first person is important. Like SUPER important!

"f we find that there is a relevant role for an optional 3^rd person camera mode, then then would simply be an additional option that, if you don’t want it, won’t affect you."

= So IF 3rd person is the best way to fix those problems we were talkin' about, AND we decided to get on with it: Don't worry! We'd make it so it doesn't bother you guys playing in first person!

"For now, be assured we're acutely aware of past problems with 3rd person view, and will make sure those same issues are thoroughly addressed. We wouldn’t settle for anything less."

= Cuz we KNOW about all that crap you guys won't shut up about! TRUST US. We KNOW about the lookin' around corners, the unfair advantages. We wouldn't settle for any 3rd person system that doesn't fix all that trash.

= But again! Just thinkin' about it. 'Cuz that's what you do when somethin' might help you: You think about it. Consider all the angles.

Edited by McKhaye, 26 November 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Ectar]

No to 3rd person view. This is not console arcade game, if you guys make it like this... I'm leaving and will demand my money back, I have no intention to support another console shooter.... ( paint very angry face here )

[Agent of Change]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Can you do us all a huge favor and stop whining there Agent of Change? What you are doing here is making an excuse to why you have to have the game a certain way. Stop trying to guilt trip the devs. They will make this the MechWarrior®: Online that they want it to be, and if you are going to threaten to rage quit after every update then maybe you should just uninstall. Maybe you should open your mind to new possibilities of gameplay, instead of being so narrow minded. 3PV does not mean mech commander and it does not mean mech assault, it doesn't necessarily mean anything that has been previously done.

Your ignorance toward 3PV is dumbfounding, and what you need to do is play MechWarrior 4 Vengeance and Mercenaries for 12 years and in over 10 active leagues with 10,000+ members, that all use 3rd Person View, including TWL, this was in 2001. Aswell, as leagues using First Person View, each view has its own viable gameplay, and as anyone can tell you 3rd Person View Pilots have always been Better Pilots. Personally I can play either way, but your ignorance and closed mindedness is extremely annoying.

Instead of whining about changes, learn to adapt. A true pilot can play in any view

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Gunny, I'm not even going to validate your post with an explanation. However, the data that you request does exist, and this is in reference to the game MechWarrior 4, as an example of 3rd Person vs First Person gameplay. If you have no experience with that game you wouldn't understand, as I understand you are new to MechWarrior, so I wouldn't expect you to be on the same level as me.

Forgive me for responding to this because it doesn't seem like you are actually interested in a discussion and more in attacking the people who disagree with you but in the case you'd like to discuss this here are my specific points in regards to your position:

• First off where was I whining? I was simply expressing my view on a likely change that does directly affect the game. I did so calmly and without attacking anyone (devs or 3rd person pov players), I did criticize the direction the devs appear to be going in but criticism doesn't inherently equal an attack.
  
• Attacking "my ignorance" of 3pv is reactionary, off base and irrelevant to the point. My opinion on 3pv in this case is strictly in relation to this game (MW:O) and is not indicative of my opinion of 3pv in any other case (including previous MW games. this is because you may have noticed we are playing MW:O and not MW4/MW3/MW:Mercs/et al...)
  
• Regardless of how how 3pv has worked (or not worked) in previous games of this or any IP, this game was promoted (to the founders at least) as a first person, in cockpit game as part of the core experience. The concern should be clear if the bedrock of the concept is shifting there is reason to be concerned, and voice said concerns.
  
• I never tried to guilt trip, black mail, or threaten to rage quit. I pointed out where I saw a potentially serious problem that may well turn this game into something I no longer wish to play. If the game changes from game i want to play to game I don't want to play through the actions of the development team in an apparent break from the game they claimed they were making and I stop playing - I did not rage quit as the game I wanted to play no longer exists. It is my right as a person to not spend my free time on something that i will not enjoy, it is my prerogative as a consumer to vote with my wallet, it is also incumbent upon me as a consumer to inform the developers why I might do such a thing in as coherent and clear a manner as I can.
  
• By your own admission the data doesn't exist for comparing a 3pv pilot to a 1pv pilot so the claim that a 3pv pilot would be better (in this game) is patently ridiculous as it cannot be proven and is therefore so much hot air. You cannot reasonably expect past performance in a past game using implementation of a mechanic by a different developer to transfer in a meaningful way.
  
• Lastly "a true pilot" would pilot from inside his cockpit, A "true gamer" can adapt to circumstance. A "true consumer" expects the product that was promised and a "true developer" will try to build a solid long lasting game and a level of trust with the players they intend to keep.

Now we can get to my feelings specifically on 3pv in general if you'd like:

• First off previous MW games were primarily designed for single player and there fore balanced for single player leading to "broken balance" in multiplayer. you can tell that it was broken because there were "clear best choices" in almost every category. this led to a limited amount of almost cloned mechs/loadouts and tactics used by anyone wanting to be 'competetive'. (we are currently experiencing a minor amount of this in MW:O btw but there is still variety)
  
• 3pv provides several inherent advantages to 1pv when it comes to gameplay not the least of which is the ability to see around corners and over obstacles without exposing yourself. This leads to two issues: 1 it renders immersion difficult at best (and yes some of us care about that) 2. it allows for such tactics as pop-tarting that are almost universally recognized and reviled as being a problem that led to a decline in the enjoyment of previous MW multi-player games.
  
• When compared to 3pv, 1pv is claustrophobic and restrictive.. on purpose. that's the point to create that experience. in principle I have no issue with 3pv, in this particular instant i have a big issue for both game mechanic and 'matter of principle' reasons.
  
• It is undeniable that 3pv players in previous mw games won more often than 1pv players. however whether that is because of the individual player skills or the use of the inherent advantages and tactics provided by 3pv is debatable.
  
• Puposefully splitting a player base unnecessarily is bad enough once but calling for a further split (quartering of the player base) is unwise.

So there you go, discussion points neatly, and without insult, addressing your position in regards to my own.

Edited by Agent of Change, 26 November 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Lt Shortcut]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Gunny, I'm not even going to validate your post with an explanation. However, the data that you request does exist, and this is in reference to the game MechWarrior 4, as an example of 3rd Person vs First Person gameplay. If you have no experience with that game you wouldn't understand, as I understand you are new to MechWarrior, so I wouldn't expect you to be on the same level as me.

Obvious troll is obvious.

[Gunny McDuck]

Lt Shortcut, on 26 November 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

Obvious troll is obvious.

Who's the troll, me or him?

I'm looking for answers, functional debates and conversations, and when someone makes a claim like that, I expect them to cite their sources.

Edited by Gunny McDuck, 26 November 2012 - 11:12 AM.

[Firefly]

RENZOKUKEN, on 26 November 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

Gunny, I'm not even going to validate your post with an explanation. However, the data that you request does exist, and this is in reference to the game MechWarrior 4, as an example of 3rd Person vs First Person gameplay. If you have no experience with that game you wouldn't understand, as I understand you are new to MechWarrior, so I wouldn't expect you to be on the same level as me.

Oh, blind speculation. Hallmark of the internet troll. This is rich coming from a kid who complains that he had to fight hard to win. Particularly from a kid who made brazen displays of prowess that were vapid and full of hot air and, ultimately, comes to nothing but teasing. Just like a visit to a strip club. Oh, forgive me... when you're old enough to get in, you might understand the analogy.

I am against third-person, having played enough games where 3d-person POV essentially ruined the game due to skill-less n00bs who used it to gain an advantage over people who didn't use 3d-person. Why not use 3d-person myself? Mainly because n00bs use it when they can't beat someone otherwise. Am I willing to try it or tolerate it being tested? Absolutely not. As a career video game developer, my understanding of the business is such that I know once something goes in-game, it's not coming back out without an act of G-d.

You want third-person? Go play Mechwarrior: Tactics. That's my opinion.

[John Wolf]

If you want to play an arcade game, go play mech assault. If you want a battletech sim? Then MWO needs to keep 1st person only.

Wasting time with a 3rd person view when we could have those devs on other projects is a serious waste of resources. Bug fixes, new mechs, 8 to 12 man drops, new maps, new game types.. why anyone would want 3rd person instead of any of those previous reasons is just silly.

Keep this game where its supposed to be. In the cockpit.

[Lt Shortcut]

Gunny McDuck, on 26 November 2012 - 11:06 AM, said:

Who's the troll, me or him?

I'm looking for answers, functional debates and conversations, and when someone makes a claim like that, I expect them to cite their sources.

He is. Why on earth would he start throwing insults about someone who posted, what I thought, was a post about what they think is an important part of this game we all like playing.

[Firefly]

John Wolf, on 26 November 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

If you want to play an arcade game, go play mech assault. If you want a battletech sim? Then MWO needs to keep 1st person only.

Wasting time with a 3rd person view when we could have those devs on other projects is a serious waste of resources. Bug fixes, new mechs, 8 to 12 man drops, new maps, new game types.. why anyone would want 3rd person instead of any of those previous reasons is just silly.

Keep this game where its supposed to be. In the cockpit.

This is a very valid reason: why waste time on an optional setting, when there is much work to be done elsewhere?

The answer to the question about why anyone would want it, is because the supposed unfair advantage from 3d-person POV has people thirsting to recapture their faded glory. Let's not forget that the Mechwarrior property is old, and a lot of "veteran players" may feel slighted if they cannot compete with a newer generation of up-and-coming skilled players. Teaching an old dog new tricks, as it were. The Mechwarrior community has a lot of ego-filled people, many of whom come with a sense of entitlement. Look at the House forums, for example, where gamers who played MW4 feel a sense of entitlement towards their claim that they are a House/faction leader simply because of their history in some other game.

[Agent of Change]

Lt Shortcut, on 26 November 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

He is. Why on earth would he start throwing insults about someone who posted, what I thought, was a post about what they think is an important part of this game we all like playing.

Largely my point in the second 'book' I wrote on the previous page of this thread. But at the very least trying to engage with him instead of react to him allows him a little more rope with which to hang himself if if he is so inclined or (admittedly less likely) actually engage in a productive discussion. Either way the points are out there now, said made by many including myself and all the wailing, insults and gnashing of teeth from those who disagree with us won't change the fact that we have reasonable and thought out grounds to disagree with them and the addition of 3pv to MW:O.

At this point it's more about keeping the signal strong and clear enough to be heard through the noise.

Edited by Agent of Change, 26 November 2012 - 11:32 AM.