2926 replies to this topic

[ghos t in the shel l]

The proof that 3rd person pilots were better in MechWarrior 4 is in the leagues Combat Zone (CZ) and NetBattleTech (NBT). Clan Fire Wolf (CFW) had an undefeated record in the FFP (Forced First Person) Only league CZ (Combat Zone MW4) in MW4: Vengeance on the MSN Gaming Zone, CFW was a clan of entirely 3rd Person Pilots from the leagues VL (MW4 Vengeance League) and BZ4 (BattleZone 4), as a member of CFW I can tell you that we completely dominated that league in FFP. In NBT, the team was Clan Ice Hellion, and although I was only in that unit for one match, there are those whose testimony will verify my claims, such as members of KaoS in MWO, that Ice Hellions completely dominated that league in FFP Only, with a roster of mostly 3rd person pilots.

Hard evidence of this can be found in the archives of these websites, which I am currently attempting to research on web.archive.org. You can find members who participated in these claims and they will verify the accuracy of these facts. Thank you.

[ghos t in the shel l]

My above post is in response to these quotes, on page 45-46.

Firefly, on 26 November 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Oh, blind speculation. Hallmark of the internet troll. This is rich coming from a kid who complains that he had to fight hard to win. Particularly from a kid who made brazen displays of prowess that were vapid and full of hot air and, ultimately, comes to nothing but teasing. Just like a visit to a strip club. Oh, forgive me... when you're old enough to get in, you might understand the analogy. I am against third-person, having played enough games where 3d-person POV essentially ruined the game due to skill-less n00bs who used it to gain an advantage over people who didn't use 3d-person. Why not use 3d-person myself? Mainly because n00bs use it when they can't beat someone otherwise. Am I willing to try it or tolerate it being tested? Absolutely not. As a career video game developer, my understanding of the business is such that I know once something goes in-game, it's not coming back out without an act of G-d. You want third-person? Go play Mechwarrior: Tactics. That's my opinion.

Alois Hammer, on 26 November 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

Screenshots or stop farting and claiming it's talking.

Kavoh, on 26 November 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

People have picked your post apart enough as it is, but I will just cap it off with this. Whether or not 3rd person pilots were better is irrelevant. You are not a better pilot. You weren't more skilled. You didn't outplay ANYONE. You ABUSED 3rd person view, had LoS on people who couldn't even see you, and you peaked around corners/poptarted/JJ sniped. If people claim to be hardcore 3pv players, then they abused those three things to death. Not skill my friend, you will survive with 1st person.

I would like to add, just because you are unfamiliar with these facts does not make them any less true, just as with your unfamiliarity of 3rd person being a valid gameplay type does not make it any less valid.

Although, we as 3rd person pilots in the game MechWarrior 4 Vengeance were able to dominate First Person Leagues, First Person pilots were not able to put up competition with us in 3rd Person leagues, and perhaps this would be the same with you. Once again returning to my original statement, a true pilot in the MechWarrior video game series can play any view, but those who are ignorant and blind to other possibilities of game play in this video game, restrict themselves to one view and also one gameplay type, thus giving them less skill in areas that matter more in 3rd person such as using cover.

Edited by RENZOKUKEN, 27 November 2012 - 01:17 PM.

[repete]

If I had to guess, I'd say the only ones still reading this thread are a small number of people who really care (One way or another) about 3rd person, perhaps Garth given it's his jerb, and a few new people that tack their thoughts on to the end. I'm one of the former, but I don't believe the thread is adding to the discussion now. 50% of the posts are about people slagging people off, either slagging people who can't figure out walking and looking in two different directions, or people slagging off the people slagging off the people who can't figure out walking and looking in two different directions. So in reality I believe this post just perpetuates this, but I feel compelled since I care about this.

I believe, as opposed to know since there isn't exactly empirical evidence beyond Russ's comment that "[...3rd person is necessary to reach the next level...]", that the objective of 3rd person is to widen the appeal of the game beyond hardcore sim fans, and not necessarily just, if at all, about new players having difficulty. 11 to 17 year old males is where the money is at. As has been said by others, if they don't understand heat and ammo, do you go no heat, no ammo?

As far as implementing 3rd person in a way which wouldn't upset the existing player base, and I don't know if this has been said alread, but how about a top-down 3rd person view like this:



...I'm sure many would still find even that confusing, AND, given I believe their objective is to widen the appeal beyond sim fans, it doesn't meet that objective either.

Anywho, peace out...

Edited by repete, 27 November 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Gunny McDuck]

In fairness, as I claim to be a reasonable man, your response is moving in the direction that I think most would be looking for in a mature, logical and reasoned argument or debate.

RENZOKUKEN, on 27 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

The proof that 3rd person pilots were better in MechWarrior 4 is in the leagues Combat Zone (CZ) and NetBattleTech (NBT). Clan Fire Wolf (CFW) had an undefeated record in the FFP (Forced First Person) Only league CZ (Combat Zone MW4) in MW4: Vengeance on the MSN Gaming Zone, CFW was a clan of entirely 3rd Person Pilots from the leagues VL (MW4 Vengeance League) and BZ4 (BattleZone 4), as a member of CFW I can tell you that we completely dominated that league in FFP. In NBT, the team was Clan Ice Hellion, and although I was only in that unit for one match, there are those whose testimony will verify my claims, such as members of KaoS in MWO, that Ice Hellions completely dominated that league in FFP Only, with a roster of mostly 3rd person pilots.

Several items here.

• Can it be proven that your primarily 3PP clans were playing only against primarily 1PP groups?
  
• What was the population distribution between 3PP and 1PP modes of play? Which group had more people?
  
• What group played more often? Asked another way, who got more practice?

What I am trying to understand is population breakdown and getting a feeling for what the sample data would actually mean, both in an abstract and in context.

While 3rd party verification without data is not optimal, again, it is moving in the right direction in terms of proving the validity of a statement with empirical data instead of anecdotal observation.

RENZOKUKEN, on 27 November 2012 - 01:01 PM, said:

Hard evidence of this can be found in the archives of these websites, which I am currently attempting to research on web.archive.org. You can find members who participated in these claims and they will verify the accuracy of these facts. Thank you.

I am genuinely interested in seeing the data.
And no, I'm not being snide or sarcastic.

[Ransack]

Maintenance ate my post, so ...

Quote

Yes. By saying two things are different or that one works better than the other in this one instance, I'm saying only one is any good and the other is worthless ****. For everything in the game. /sarcasm

you said

Quote

But a still image =/= giving players direct experience.

I advocate giving them an image of what they are doing and have them do it from inside the cockpit instead of moving the camera. They locked the darn field of view so that experienced cockpit players could not adjust it, now they talk of expanding the field of view with third person view to help newbies. That is so contradictory it's not even funny.

Quote

You are seeing things that aren't there. They say "It'd be an option" and you hear "It'd be an option IN ALL MATCHES AND MATCH TYPES IN SERIOUS GAMEPLAY."

No, I see

Quote

They also plan to add a "way" to define wich type of play the match will have: 1st person, 3rd person or both.
This can be done via your House/Merc/Clan settings on community warfare.
So you will be able to choose only to play against other 1st person players, or 3rd, or allow any of the two.

and see a fragmented playerbase.

from the thread that started it all.
http://mwomercs.com/...son-its-coming/
Sorry, I am not looking for a transcript of the podcast.

Quote

First one: Wrong. There are skills that crossover from one view to the other.

Care to name a few that could not be learned in the cockpit EXCLUSIVELY?

Quote

Second one: "Exclusively" is exaggeration. 3pv would help with learning torso twist. It is not the exclusive way to learn it.

The game is EXCLUSIVELY first person now. People should learn to play what is there instead of advocating something that is not needed. You can learn torso twist by looking at the picture, mashing buttons, and moving the mouse. You have to learn weapon grouping by reading. You have to learn the mechlab by going to flippin' youtube. The problem is that there is zero documentation in game. If they put some in the game along with a tutorial or firing range, people wouldn't be confused about torso twist or the throttle concept, jumpjets, chain firing, weapon grouping etc.

McKhaye, on 27 November 2012 - 12:02 PM, said:

Y'know.

I'm just gonna say: I don't like the idea of 3rd person view. I think a plain tutorial is all the game really needs.

That's all it needs. That's all it ever needed. It surely does not need people defending the decision to investigate a feature that is not needed. That's all everyone in this thread that is against the idea is saying. We are standing firm and saying that it is not needed and not wanted by the majority of players who actually have something to say about the game. Why in the world you would now say that you do not like a planned feature after spending pages defending it is beyond me, but I guess someone must play Devils advocate.

My bottom line is that I do not want to see this game dumbed down for impatient players who do not have the time or attention span to learn the game. Everyone that is currently enjoying the game has done it from the cockpit, it should be left alone.

Quote

We have some exciting things to talk about in this patch, but first off, we want highlight the start of Banked Premium time button. The Community spoke and we listened!

This is all we want them to do. Listen to the community, not a bunch of people that may play the game some day.

[Frenchtoastman]

There are a couple of very important questions that the devs should consider asking the 3rd person community.
To anyone who wants a 3rd person mode..Would you STILL want it IF..?

It was only a very tight, over the shoulder camera. Still offering the same narrow field of vision as current?

It was a farther, more dramatically angled shot (a more conventional 3rd person view), but you were still only allowed to see enemies that were in a narrow field in front of you? Enemies behind you and too far off toward your sides would be invisible, but you COULD see more of the map and your mech.

It was only offered as a pre-match option, that would only allow you to play against others that were allowing using the same view? This would mean you'd have a significantly longer wait time to get into a match, and more "failed to locate match" errors. It would also severely complicate CommunityWarfare, when that is added.

[ghos t in the shel l]

The reason why I use MechWarrior 4 as an example, is because it is a MechWarrior video game that used both First and 3rd person view points, each with their own leagues and styles of play, and as a participant in both ways of play my testimony to you is from my personal experience, which others also will agree with.

Let me be clear, just because YOU have not had these experiences does not make them any less true or valid, this only emphasizes on your personal ignorance toward these facts.

[McKhaye]

repete, on 27 November 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

If I had to guess, I'd say the only ones still reading this thread are a small number of people who really care (One way or another) about 3rd person, perhaps Garth given it's his jerb, and a few new people that tack their thoughts on to the end. I'm one of the former, but I don't believe the thread is adding to the discussion now. 50% of the posts are about people slagging people off, either slagging people who can't figure out walking and looking in two different directions, or people slagging off the people slagging off the people who can't figure out walking and looking in two different directions. So in reality I believe this post just perpetuates this, but I feel compelled since I care about this.

I believe, as opposed to know since there is no empirical evidence, that the objective of 3rd person is to widen the appeal of the game beyond hardcore sim fans, and not necessarily just, if at all, about new players having difficulty. 11 to 17 year old males is where the money is at. As has been said by others, if they don't understand heat and ammo, do you go no heat, no ammo?

Sounds about right, for the most part. Esp. about the thread.

My correction would be that I don't think they're trying to change the whole game to make new players happy -- they're just trying to give them a temporary 'in' so they can see how great the rest of the game is, ease them into playing the game the way it is now. Like give them some kind of third person view for a tutorial, maybe a newb/bot match or some crap, then set them free in the normal game.

But lots of people think it's some big conspiracy beyond that, or think that having a tutorial where you show the player that the mech moves its legs and torso separately by looking from outside the mech is stupid, so whatever.

One of my non-intrusive ideas would just be using the existing external cam that comes up when you're dieing during the beginning of the first tutorial, maybe PIP inside your cockpit, go "SEE! WHEN YOU WALK AND AIM, YOUR LEGS CAN GO ONE DIRECTION AND YOUR TORSO GOES ANOTHER!" for like 20 seconds, then take the damn thing away.

[ghos t in the shel l]

Gunny McDuck, on 27 November 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

In fairness, as I claim to be a reasonable man, your response is moving in the direction that I think most would be looking for in a mature, logical and reasoned argument or debate.



Several items here.

• Can it be proven that your primarily 3PP clans were playing only against primarily 1PP groups?
  
• What was the population distribution between 3PP and 1PP modes of play? Which group had more people?
  
• What group played more often? Asked another way, who got more practice?

What I am trying to understand is population breakdown and getting a feeling for what the sample data would actually mean, both in an abstract and in context.






While 3rd party verification without data is not optimal, again, it is moving in the right direction in terms of proving the validity of a statement with empirical data instead of anecdotal observation.




I am genuinely interested in seeing the data.
And no, I'm not being snide or sarcastic.

Thank you for your response, and let me go ahead and answer some of your questions.

Question 1. Can it be proven that your primarily 3PP clans were playing only against primarily 1PP groups?

Yes, as these leagues were First Person Only leagues, and we were the only 3rd Person Pilots in those leagues.

Question 2. What was the population distribution between 3PP and 1PP modes of play? Which group had more people?

I think it was about equal. In those days it was divided into two groups, those who played on the MSN Gaming Zone and those who played on the In-Game Servers, the Zone pilots were significantly better at the time. The leagues which I mentioned, CZ and NBT, CZ was a Zone League and NBT was an In-Game league, however this made no difference to the 3rd Person pilots dominating each league.

Question 3. What group played more often? Asked another way, who got more practice?
The MSN Zone group played more league matches, because the league activity on the zone was much higher, you could play 30-50 league matches in one night. CZ was a Zone FFP league, from my experience with NBT it was scheduled matches, but still an active planetary league played on In-Game dedicated servers. The game then was very active on the zone with 2 full lobbies every night, playing various leagues aswell as open matches. As far as 3rd person pilots practicing more than FFP pilots, it was about equal, with us 3PV Zone pilots able to play Any view although we preferred 3PV, and the FFP pilots only able to play the one view and thus being less skilled in 3PV.

To sum it up, FFP pilots refusal to play 3PV resulted in them being less skilled pilots, and they routinely were dominated by 3PV pilots in FFP. Just to clarify FFP means Forced First Person, mean First Person View Only.

By all means, let's invite others who were around back then to confirm the validity of these facts. Actual screenshots can also be found, but please keep in mind I am referring to an era over 10 years ago, although the superiority of these pilots still continues to this day.

Just because you are only looking at it from the point of view as 3PV being an unfair advantage, does not mean that 3PV Only gameplay is necessarily bad, and as many who agree with me will say, it is actually a good thing. 3rd Person forces you to use cover and be smart, whereas in FFP it is a different type of skill, less individual based and more team based, I am not bashing First person view as it does give you a fast and accurate shot, but it supports being able to stand in the open and waiting for your opponent to crest, with cresting actually being a bad thing, in 3PV cresting can be very good and this is how techniques such as Jumpsniping and Hillpopping often referred to by haters as "poptarting" and this is a viable skill that can also be done in FFP by visualizing your mech's position on the hill through experience with maps, hills and from playing 3PV for long periods of time.

Edited by RENZOKUKEN, 27 November 2012 - 01:39 PM.

[ghos t in the shel l]

Let me also be clear that I am a strong supporter of Heat On and very much against No Heat

[repete]

RENZOKUKEN, on 27 November 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Let me be clear, just because YOU have not had these experiences does not make them any less true or valid, this only emphasizes on your personal ignorance toward these facts.

Wow. What a douche. To use your own quote "...just because YOU save you have had these experiences does not make them any more true or valid...". Anecdotal evidence does not equal empirical evidence. As a matter of fact, go read this.

So what you say is fact because you've experienced it's fact, and what the other guys says "[Is just your opinion man!]".

You were going in the right direction saying "[I'm trying to look up the data]", which even when cited doesn't make it fact. It would then need to be reviewed. But instead you just drove right off the road to crazy town.

Edit: Spelling.
Edit 2: Changed "Just because YOU have" to "just because YOU say you have"

Edited by repete, 27 November 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[McKhaye]

Ransack, on 27 November 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Why in the world you would now say that you do not like a planned feature after spending pages defending it is beyond me, but I guess someone must play Devils advocate.

My position hasn't changed once this entire conversation, the only thing I'm defending is that some form of 3rd person view wouldn't be the end of the world like people seem to think.

You would've known that had you read my posts or tried to consider a point of view that encompasses more options than a simple black and white view of the situation. I have not once said that 3rd person is some huge necessity or the only solution, just that it might work and be helpful if they do it right, and you and people like you keep parroting that any form of 3pv, even in a single tutorial mission, is the worst. thing. ever.

Here, here's some more ideas/possibilities:

Not Harmful At All:
3pv for part of a tutorial.
3pv option for the length of tutorials.

A little bad:
3pv as an option during "training/practice/bot" games.

Slightly divisive, not end of world:
3pv option during "noob" low ranked Trial-Mech only games.
3pv option for "exhibition" public expo only matches, not available during regular game.

Do all of those options make you want to vomit? Are you that opposed to any kind of 3pv at all?

I think a plain old tutorial would work fine. But if they had to do some of the options above, I would'nt flip my ****. It wouldn't be the end of the world, forum QQing aside.

Edited by McKhaye, 27 November 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Dragunz Pryde]

Look if they do this the smart way you would be able to 'toggle' a 3rd person view but not effectively pilot your mech while doing so. Basically make it a look around feature. That's it. This is a sim, not an over the shoulder 'Gundam' style game.

[McKhaye]

Dragunz Pryde, on 27 November 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Look if they do this the smart way you would be able to 'toggle' a 3rd person view but not effectively pilot your mech while doing so. Basically make it a look around feature. That's it. This is a sim, not an over the shoulder 'Gundam' style game.

Admittedly that'd still confer a gameplay advantage; Stop at a corner, pop out to 3pv, look around, then back into First Person to do whatever.

[repete]

McKhaye, on 27 November 2012 - 02:09 PM, said:

Admittedly that'd still confer a gameplay advantage; Stop at a corner, pop out to 3pv, look around, then back into First Person to do whatever.

Plus:

Stop just below the crest of a hill, pop out to 3pv, look around, then back into First Person to do whatever.

[JadeViper]

Frenchtoastman, on 27 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Occlusion: This could work if done right. If you were allowed to pop into 3rd, but you couldn't see enemies (enemies wouldn't render when in 3rd person mode), it would allow both a wide angle of view AND offer no advantage. It would also mean you'd have to actually play in 1st, and only use 3rd to untangle yourself or take a look at how cool your 20+ton warmachine looked.

The problem with occlusion is..you know it will get hacked.

I sincerely doubt a hacker would prioritize the that draw system. If a hacker was going to bother, he'd get himself a MCs, cbills, noclip, noheat, god, etc. Nothing is immune to hacking, including the current camera and mechanics. There are simply better targets.

Quote

3rd to untangle yourself or take a look at how cool your 20+ton warmachine looked.

That's the ultimate goal methinks. 'Why am I looking one way and moving another?' This would cure that. I think It'd be fair to render foes your cockpit could see from first person, and make for some awesome fraps and screenies, but if the only sell is a 'no-render' foes, that that would still be sufficient to cure disorientation.

Edited by JadeViper, 27 November 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[Kavoh]

RENZOKUKEN, on 27 November 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

My above post is in response to these quotes, on page 45-46.



I would like to add, just because you are unfamiliar with these facts does not make them any less true, just as with your unfamiliarity of 3rd person being a valid gameplay type does not make it any less valid.

Although, we as 3rd person pilots in the game MechWarrior 4 Vengeance were able to dominate First Person Leagues, First Person pilots were not able to put up competition with us in 3rd Person leagues, and perhaps this would be the same with you. Once again returning to my original statement, a true pilot in the MechWarrior video game series can play any view, but those who are ignorant and blind to other possibilities of game play in this video game, restrict themselves to one view and also one gameplay type, thus giving them less skill in areas that matter more in 3rd person such as using cover.

Valid? Wrong word there buddy.

So essentially this was just an epeen stroking post that proves nothing at all but wanting us to take your word that you were the almighty 3pv king. 3rd person gives too much advantage of knowing when your mech is in cover, instead of learning your chassis size. You basically admitted to that.

EDIT: anyone can play 3rd person, the 1pv pilots you apparently "beat" were just not good. It had nothing to do with you being (rofl) better at 3rd person.

Edited by Kavoh, 27 November 2012 - 07:21 PM.

[ghos t in the shel l]

You keep speaking of advantages, I am talking about 3PV Only, meaning no one using FFP, also talking about FFP only leagues. So where is the advantage in an even playing field?

I am talking not about myself, but an entire community of gamers in the game MechWarrior 4, and several leagues, some FFP and some 3PV, as a comparison to emphasize on the fact of 3rd Person View as a viable game type that takes skill, perhaps even more skill than FFP in some ways.

My only argument is that people should not be so close minded to the idea of 3PV, because the changes it makes to the gameplay are not necessarily bad, but can be extremely good such as the MechWarrior 4 3rd Person View, which resulted in several league which allowed it and were very successful, active and fun to play in. In my opinion, it can make the game better with elements such as Pop Sniping and Jumpsniping which are techniques of using cover effectively, and can also be done in FFP with enough skill.

Edited by RENZOKUKEN, 27 November 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

JadeViper, on 27 November 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Yes, I had considered the possibility on a pip ui screen of youself, but at the same time, that can be jsut as abstract so see a 3d mech walking in place as to the current ui viewarc and dashed arrow of leg dirction. If that simplistic ui can't be understand readily. But its worth trying. agreed.



And that's the Exact misconception that frustrates new players who do know CoD and shooters: Pushing right strafes you in FPSs! in MW, it Turns you! That's what makes it so utterly impossible to comprehend from long time pro FPS players. Right and left mean sidestep, and camera control turns. In MW it's opposite! in CoD your legs always face your look direction. [w] or forward always moves you the way you look. MW this not the case! TY gray for accidently showing why the gaming community doesn't get it. It's so 2nd nature to you and I that we don't realize FPSs and MW have inversed controls.

this is not CoD. This is MECHWARRIOR. the concept of our legs moving independent of which way we are looking is a core value that has been in the BTU and MECHWARRIOR games for DECADES. if the console brats cannot learn this, then tough beans. They mastered this very concept IRL by walking and talking, driving and merging with cars. Get it through their heads that the concept is the same in this game.

[grayson marik]

Long story short,
cons:
-3pv does not help learning the concept of controlling a mech any faster.

- 3pv implementation opens up just one more target for exploits, hacks and whatever bad things there is in today's gaming ( which is not confound by the simple fact that there are more targets for hacking than 3pv).

- a good sim game simply cannot be mastered in 5 min of gameplay at a convention, no matter what a master game- journalist you are. Dumping down a sim game to a level, 5 mins are enough to play fluently is simply a death sentence to any good sim or even semi sim ^^.

- once 3pv is in, it leads to player base fragmentation and to a slow death of 1pv due to the fact that new players will also (mostly) strive for the allegedly "easy" way of gameplay if there is one.

- all arguments that 3pv would or should only be for learning but not in meta game... if the foot is in the door... it WILL become available in meta game. There are so many games out there which hit the "dumb it down train" and died from that... anyone with a few years of online gaming experience knows at least one game that took this way down the drain....



pros:
- eye candy
- game view to attract the hmm .. generation arcade?!? you know.. all the people, who jump on a game ONLY because of nice graphics and sound .... and BOOOOM. So one would indeed get a short term income of new people to the game, at least for 3 or 6 month's.






Might be biased but I think the sacrifice would be too big if 3pv would come in any way since the sacrifice would be simply the game itself.

Edited by grayson marik, 28 November 2012 - 02:35 AM.