2926 replies to this topic

[GioAvanti]

If it's optional, but it has any advantage over 1st person... then it's not optional.


I don't know how you do 3rd person without giving the view more "view" than 1st person.

[GioAvanti]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Is it that big of a deal?.. people gravitate to what works and what doesnt. If 3rd person is better than everyone will play third person if not they wont... but as I think about it .. that is not the issue that is upsetting the forum watchers. The issue is that most people believe 3rd person is better but the "fan boys" dont want to use the better system because the old games did not give you the option... probably because the developers did not have the tech or time to implement.

Is this a correct summary or am I missing something?

You're missing that around 90% (not a made up.. there was a poll done) of the players don't 3rd person. Honestly its more of an issue of 3rd person phasing out 1st person due to inherent advantages. 3rd person dumbs down the game... and most online games suffer horribly if you keep dumbing them down.

[gnohm]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Is it that big of a deal?.. people gravitate to what works and what doesnt. If 3rd person is better than everyone will play third person if not they wont... but as I think about it .. that is not the issue that is upsetting the forum watchers. The issue is that most people believe 3rd person is better but the "fan boys" dont want to use the better system because the old games did not give you the option... probably because the developers did not have the tech or time to implement.

Is this a correct summary or am I missing something?

What you're missing is the advantage 3rd person gives you in a game where visual contact and using cover matter. If you could see what was over the next hill without showing yourself, that's an advantage. And similarly, whatever is hiding over the next hill could just as easily be peeking around a building corner without showing themselves and then it just becomes a game of chicken (or I guess kind of the opposite of chicken).

I'm fine with it as long as it is as someone stated above, and people that play in 3rd person only play against other people who also use 3rd person. But then you risk dividing the community up based on a camera viewpoint option? Seems a bit silly to me. I like the fact that there's a big bulky 3D cockpit around me when I'm playing, it feels real and gritty and the lack of being able to see what is around me at all times provides a challenging threat, and also let's people use more interesting tactics, like dancing around the edges of an atlas's viewpoint as a jenner so that he doesn't get the chance to hit you. If he could zoom out and see where you were coming around he could know when to just wait for you to come around his front.

[GioAvanti]

Xigunder Blue, on 20 November 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Unless I am mistaken Ross said that if 3rd person is implemented it would be optional and you would fight ONLY against others who also use 3rd person. If you stay with 1st person you will fight only those who have also chosen 1st person. That seems to be the solution they came up with and he stated it pretty clear. For all of us it will help give non BT players who come in a chance to play and enjoy MWO and when they wish, can go to the more advanced 1st person aspect. Seems like a good compromise to me. The more players the better for all of us. Be interesting seeing how this works out. Save the fire breathing flames, bad breath offends everybody.

Splitting up a small player base is stupid. Nuff said.

[Frenchtoastman]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Is it that big of a deal?.. people gravitate to what works and what doesnt. If 3rd person is better than everyone will play third person if not they wont... but as I think about it .. that is not the issue that is upsetting the forum watchers. The issue is that most people believe 3rd person is better but the "fan boys" dont want to use the better system because the old games did not give you the option... probably because the developers did not have the tech or time to implement.

Is this a correct summary or am I missing something?

Actually many of the old games DID have it as an option. Also, it pretty much ruined 1st person for MW4 multiplayer. A majority of players here prefer 1'st person, and a mixed option experience would likely have the same result as it did for MW4; use 3'rd or die. That would succeed in killing the experience for a majority of players.

A segregated system would have the problems mentioned above about CW, AND would split the playerbase.

[Diffedge]

KBob, on 20 November 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

I'd expect more after 36 pages.
In general I am 3rd person view player (heavy preference), BUT in battlemech game the whole immersion point (based on my personal understanding of things) is YOU being INSIDE of cockpit of the mech. Any 3rd person view would ruin this once and forever, and as such will be pain to the game in a long shot. That's why I against it for MWO.

Yes but then you would prefer to play all flying games from the Cockpit view? I dont think so.. and here is why I dont think so... Because you dont have the full view range that you would if you were really in that plane. You can turn your head and look around .. not really an option.

Also it comes back to my point again why would you build something the size of a mech with no Peripheral
or rear vision options? Whether your supposed to be in it or not you basicaly have tunnel vision that is it. Either it is a horrible mistake made by the individuals who made the world of Mechwarror or it was assumed that there were some type of way to have a basic 360 view of your surroundings.

GioAvanti, on 20 November 2012 - 07:10 AM, said:

You're missing that around 90% (not a made up.. there was a poll done) of the players don't 3rd person. Honestly its more of an issue of 3rd person phasing out 1st person due to inherent advantages. 3rd person dumbs down the game... and most online games suffer horribly if you keep dumbing them down.

So then your answer is yes, 3rd person is percieved to be better in every way but you dont want to use it so no one can.
Got it.

Edited by Diffedge, 20 November 2012 - 07:18 AM.

[gnohm]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

Yes but then you would prefer to play all sim games from the Cockpit view? I dont think so.. and here is why I dont think so... Because you dont have the full view range that you would if you were really in that plane. You can turn your head and look around .. not really an option.

Also it comes back to my point again why would you build something the size of a mech with no Peripheral
or rear vision options? Whether your supposed to be in it or not you basicaly have tunnel vision that is it. Either it is a horrible mistake made by the individuals who made the world of Mechwarror or it was assumed that there were some type of way to have a basic 360 view of your surroundings.




So then your answer is yes, 3rd person is percieved to be better in every way but you dont want to use it so no one can.
Got it.

Rear view is sensible, but I think the reason it works the way it is, is because you're in a mech that can twist its torso around to look wherever it wants.

[Frenchtoastman]

The advantages it gives make the game less fun. Just like a rearview mirror would make sneaking/flanking nearly pointless, being able to see over or around objects before you are shown is a gamebreaking advantage that sucks the fun out in a PVP game.

Edited by Frenchtoastman, 20 November 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[gnohm]

Frenchtoastman, on 20 November 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

The advantages it gives make the game less fun.

Exactly what I was going to say. It's like saying "why not remove the survival aspects out of a survival game, you could do better that way". I don't know. Why play any game legitimately, why not just cheat your way through it? Because of the challenge. Half of a game sometimes is what it doesn't let you do.

Yeah it would work "better" (better meaning everyone would have more visual awareness) but it's not that realistic, and it would result in effectively changing the gameplay mechanics into cover-hiding waiting games.

Edited by gnohm, 20 November 2012 - 07:22 AM.

[Diffedge]

gnohm, on 20 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Rear view is sensible, but I think the reason it works the way it is, is because you're in a mech that can twist its torso around to look wherever it wants.

If it was a tractor I would not argue but this is supposed to be a war machine. Being aware of your surroundings is everything.
Yes I can swivel my turret but while in an engagement I have to move all my weapons and expose my lighter armor to the enemy in front of me to make sure no one is next to me.

How about we say this, If you guys want to stay in 1st person think up a practical logical concept the devs can implment that would fix this glaring flaw in the game mechanics.

gnohm, on 20 November 2012 - 07:21 AM, said:

Exactly what I was going to say. It's like saying "why not remove the survival aspects out of a survival game, you could do better that way". I don't know. Why play any game legitimately, why not just cheat your way through it? Because of the challenge. Half of a game sometimes is what it doesn't let you do.

Yeah it would work "better" (better meaning everyone would have more visual awareness) but it's not that realistic, and it would result in effectively changing the gameplay mechanics into cover-hiding waiting games.

Realistic? There is nothing realistic about a war machine that can only look straight ahead. I mean even the old ww2 tanks the driver could only look straight ahead but there was a look out who had 360 view not to mention the turret.

[KBob]

One thing I learned (the hard way) all developers whants to have their own bruises really bad, so most probably they will implement the 3rd person view just to understand what the heck we are talking about, and after they implement it they wouldn't be able to get rid of it as there are many paying players who wants to stay in 3rd person view . Personally - I will play in 3rd person view, but I'd say big "bye" to immersion ( and to any/all joysticks etc. that supposed to improve it )

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

Realistic? There is nothing realistic about a war machine that can only look straight ahead. I mean even the old ww2 tanks the driver could only look straight ahead but there was a look out who had 360 view not to mention the turret.

Nice. So you definitely reject the ability to look around by using Ctrl .. as it's less realistic (in your opinion) than 360 degrees human vision ?

[Diffedge]

Kbob, then give the devs an alternative. What else could they do instead of making 3rd person?


Ctrl? What is this Ctrl thing you speak of I will have to test it out.

Edited by Diffedge, 20 November 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[gnohm]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Kbob, then give the devs an alternative. What else could they do instead of making 3rd person?

Either nothing, or add a rear view cam.

[Frenchtoastman]

Why are they looking at 3rd person at all anyway? what does it solve?

It will either kill 1st person by having tactical advantage over it, or it will split the playerbase which will lead to more 7VS8 matches and longer wait times.

It won't help the new users learn faster, not near as well as a simple tutorial.

Edited by Frenchtoastman, 20 November 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[gnohm]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

If it was a tractor I would not argue but this is supposed to be a war machine. Being aware of your surroundings is everything.
Yes I can swivel my turret but while in an engagement I have to move all my weapons and expose my lighter armor to the enemy in front of me to make sure no one is next to me.

How about we say this, If you guys want to stay in 1st person think up a practical logical concept the devs can implment that would fix this glaring flaw in the game mechanics.



Realistic? There is nothing realistic about a war machine that can only look straight ahead. I mean even the old ww2 tanks the driver could only look straight ahead but there was a look out who had 360 view not to mention the turret.

I don't really even understand. If you're going to argue tanks vs mechs, their scope of view and ability to turn are essentially the same (except that in a mech you're looking out a window, and you can turn your head to look around). You can swivel your torso (to which your guns are mounted) just as a tank can swivel its tank turret. If you want an ability to turn your mech's head a little more I'm fine with that (maybe a button like the in-cockpit freelook) that lets you turn your mech's head up to a certain point (but not all the way around like an owl, that would be silly), but if you are arguing realism there's nothing realistic about having a floating viewpoint behind your mech. I probably wouldn't use the head-swiveling because it would just add another layer of control like your torso that would probably confuse me about my ultimate heading (having to relate legs, to torso, to head).

Edited by gnohm, 20 November 2012 - 07:41 AM.

[Massive Diarrhea]

I am sorry if this has been already covered, but I feel thrid person view creates a larger problem with the concept that it gives access to a view of rear damage. The pilot can now see them being hit from behind, what they are being hit with, and the angle at which they are hit. This is completely defeating for strategies of positioning which is a huge layer of this game. I feel a 3rd person view would completely destroy so much of this abilities, and the advantages of this view would outweigh those that enjoy the feel of the cockpit view, and ultimately create a game that is like many console piloting games, which are a dime a dozen.

I live in rear damage as I roll with a jenner, I see this as destroying my entire game experence. I wait to fire for friendly LRM missles to hit the target to fire when I sneak behind an enemy LRM boat, this hides my damage to all but the most experienced pilots, but with the 3rd person view, this would be completely nullified, even to any new player in a trial mech.

I am sure there are many other ways, besides what I have addressed, a 3rd person view would create problems and would not be solved by the simplistic concept "if you dont like it, dont use it."

[QbN]

I think the best course of action would be for the devs to implement an ffp option in the matchmaking system for people who only want to play against other players with first person locked in. If you handle it that way, players who are worried about 3rd person being unbalanced can enjoy the force first person option via matchmaking and players who enjoy 3rd person can choose the no ffp matchmaking option... it worked just fine in mechwarrior mercenaries, vengeance, etc... dont see why it would be bad in this game...

Not quite sure why people on both sides of this issue insist on making it so difficult to remedy... There is always going to be hardcore FFP players and hardcore 1st/3rd person... just give matchmaking options for both and call it a day that way we can focus on the more important issues facing this game...

Edited by QbN, 20 November 2012 - 07:43 AM.

[KBob]

Diffedge, on 20 November 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Kbob, then give the devs an alternative. What else could they do instead of making 3rd person?


Ctrl? What is this Ctrl thing you speak of I will have to test it out.

Diffedge - Ctrl + mouse is free look within cockpit - try it

[Diffedge]

gnohm, on 20 November 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Either nothing, or add a rear view cam.

The rear cam would probably work, the devs could even implement it so that it only worked when you were still or backing up.

Ok ctrl thing is mildly enertaining and mildly useful. Better than tunnel vision. I guess it is something!

Edited by Diffedge, 20 November 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[FallguySoldier]

I was worried I wouldn't be able to give my input because the old thread closed, but thankfully I found this one. Here's my take on 3rd person:

1) People are expressing their opinions on a feature that has NOT been implemented yet. So basically everyone's just guessing as to what might happen or how they'll feel about 3rd person, without actually having tried it. (If it was implemented in a private server, then I apologize, for I had no idea there was one. I'm only aware of the public servers, i.e. closed/open betas.) That said, I think 3rd person should be implemented as part of the beta phase for us to actually test it and provide a better, more informed feedback.

2) You could restrict the 3rd person view to something that's a little bit more like Gears of War, in which it's just slightly over the shoulder of the mech and fairly up-close as to remove any full view of the surroundings. Speaking of which, the camera turning should also be the same as if we were to rotate our torso. So in other words, we should not be able to see our "front" or "side" etc. etc.

To me, 3rd person in MechWarrior Online should be to offer a different "view" of the overall gameplay experience and to make certain moments feel dramatic, but is not meant to be used for any strategic (and exploitable) reasons such as being able to "hide behind hills and still seeing a clear view of the surroundings".

Here's my source of inspiration. Only difference is that the camera should be more up-close.



3) The game still has lots of bugs and quirks that need to be worked out (like what happened to self-shadows, and are we ever getting DX 11 support with better anti-aliasing?), so while I wouldn't mind testing a 3rd person feature, it should be on the lowest priority.

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this post, but I'm just a bit more open-minded about these things.

Edited by FallguySoldier, 20 November 2012 - 07:57 AM.