2926 replies to this topic

[DirePhoenix]

Frenchtoastman, on 21 November 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

So, you could just use it for the advantage of 3rd person (peeking around a corner or over a hill) then release the button and resume combat..So even unprotected heavies can keep an eye on their own back (making flanking moot) AND everyone could cheat around objects without getting in harms way AND without a split playerbase, I'd have to just put up with it and use it myself or be at a severe disadvantage.
gotta say, I'm not a fan of this idea.

I'm not sure if you have a Selective Reading Disorder or are being purposely obtuse.

First, you're promoting splitting the already pretty small playerbase into 1st-person-only and 3rd-person-only camps. We've only got 400K registered users right now. That's fine for a niche game in a niche genre, but kind of small for an MMO. You do NOT want to make the pool of available players any smaller.

Second, how does my method give any useful tactical advantage? Yes you *might* see that there's a 'mech behind that hill in front of you, but most likely you'd have already known something was back there to begin with.

While using the view as I've described, you can only LOOK. You can't shoot. You can't target. You have no HUD. You can't even change your movement or facing. In order to do any of that, you'd have to go back into first-person view inside the cockpit. It's only useful for looking around your 'mech and seeing that "oh there's a bunker in front of my shins keeping me from moving in that direction", or "oh my legs are all twisted up in the wrong direction", or "man, my 'mech looks sweet at this angle, I think I'll take a screenshot".

Would it help you if this view also locked in the zoom so that your 'mech takes up most of the center screen, or do you think that we'd all have infinite zoom-out and could view the entire map in third-person?

EDIT: We also have sensor module upgrades now, so I think that renders your "flanking" argument a bit moot anyway. And if you haven't noticed already, even without improved sensors, when a 'mech outside your field of view (like, behind you) shoots you, they already appear on your minimap for a few seconds.

Edited by DirePhoenix, 21 November 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Elder Thorn]

From the into the lab thread in the command chair:

Quote

New players will benefit from seeing how torso twist and throttle work from the outside. This reduces new user friction and gets them into the game faster, with less frustration.

first off, let me say that i really appreciate any efford put into new player experience.
I also kind of like the idea that you can set 'filters' for the matchmaking for 1st, 3rd or mixed perspective.

BUT: to be honest, i think an interactive tutorial would actually help new players more, than just adding a 3rd person view. If they never heard about how the system works, they will still not understand, because in the end, the information is allready there, does not matter if you read it from the mech model or from the HUD.
Just my 2 c-bills on this

[Jake Wolf]

It is so crazy.
There making a good Mech Game with a lot of players, then ruin it with a stupid choice bringing in 3rd Person view what ruined MW4 before...

[ExplodedZombie]

3rd person with a good line-of-sight occlusion system would work just fine, honestly. If your mech cockpit can't see it, you can't see it. And the nooblets can be happy.

[Elder Thorn]

ExplodedZombie, on 21 November 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

3rd person with a good line-of-sight occlusion system would work just fine, honestly. If your mech cockpit can't see it, you can't see it. And the nooblets can be happy.

tbh, i'd hate that. Because it wont work, it would be like world of tanks with giant mechs becoming invisible because of a bush that is as high as their knee

[Squidhead Jax]

Elder Thorn, on 21 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

tbh, i'd hate that. Because it wont work, it would be like world of tanks with giant mechs becoming invisible because of a bush that is as high as their knee

This. 3P is either a massive boost in awareness bordering on the magical, or 'balanced' with haphazard limitations so counter-intuitive they border on pants-on-head ********.

[Gunny McDuck]

Can we all agree that if 3 person perspective was limited to a tutorial mode,where it would be used as a training and visualization tool to better illustrate the torso twist mechanism, that it would then be OK?

As long as it was limited to a training mission or mode, I'd be willing to accept that.

[Ransack]

Gunny McDuck, on 21 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Can we all agree that if 3 person perspective was limited to a tutorial mode,where it would be used as a training and visualization tool to better illustrate the torso twist mechanism, that it would then be OK?

As long as it was limited to a training mission or mode, I'd be willing to accept that.

I don't even like it for that purpose. That would be like learning how to ride a bike by swimming. You learn as you do. Giving them a crutch would make it harder to take it away from them later, but make it easier for it to bleed into the rest of the game.

[Gunny McDuck]

Ransack, on 21 November 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

I don't even like it for that purpose. That would be like learning how to ride a bike by swimming. You learn as you do. Giving them a crutch would make it harder to take it away from them later, but make it easier for it to bleed into the rest of the game.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if 3rd person is coming regardless, I'd rather have it limited to a training mode than it be a normal game view mode.

[Tonberry]

Gunny McDuck, on 21 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but if 3rd person is coming regardless, I'd rather have it limited to a training mode than it be a normal game view mode.

Hah first we have to get the tutorial LOL

[repete]

DirePhoenix, on 21 November 2012 - 08:25 AM, said:

Actually, yes. Only the "superhardcore nerds" even look at the forums, let alone post in them. Take another look at that poll: Less than 4000 people gave inputs. Look at the total amount of registered players: ~400,000.

~400K people haven't responded because they haven't been asked.

Gunny McDuck, on 21 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

...As long as it was limited to a training mission or mode, I'd be willing to accept that.

Call it the thin edge of the wedge, a slippery slope, the law of unintended consequences, or whatever. Put it in training mode and there will then be pressure to move it in to the full game. "Hey. I like that 3rd person thing you had in training. Can we have that in the full game?".

The cost benefit analsys that will be made is:

"Will X be greater than Y if we do Z?"

Where:

X = expected increase in sales - expected backlash
Y = No increase in sales + what to you make by keeping hard core players happy
Z = Add 3rd person

They are a business. I don't know who owns PGI or IGP, but if they think something will make more money, then it is a fairly safe bet they will do it.

Edited by repete, 21 November 2012 - 01:32 PM.

[Gunny McDuck]

repete, on 21 November 2012 - 01:27 PM, said:

~400K people haven't responded because they haven't been asked.




Call it the thin edge of the wedge, a slippery slope, the law of unintended consequences, or whatever. Put it in training mode and there will then be pressure to move it in to the full game. "Hey. I like that 3rd person thing you had in training. Can we have that in the full game?".

Agreed, but I'd rather be on the bus than run over by it.

There is no doubt in my mind that 3rd person perspective is coming.
Nobody knows for sure what form it will take.
They've said the sole purpose it to help new players learn some of the movement and torso-twist mechanics, so limit it to that.

[Ishmod]

In all honesty, i can see only one real way to make use of 3P in this version of the game . Give it to those who equip the command modules . Think about it, It takes weight, slots and can be used to zoom out and get a "commander's" view of the battle or can be just over the shoulder whatever for those that just HAVE to have it . just my two cents.

Edited by Ishmod, 21 November 2012 - 01:42 PM.

[repete]

Ishmod, on 21 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

...Give it to those who equip the command modules...

This is not their stated / intended purpose with 3rd person. New players don't have command modules.

[CyBerkut]

ExplodedZombie, on 21 November 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

3rd person with a good line-of-sight occlusion system would work just fine, honestly. If your mech cockpit can't see it, you can't see it. And the nooblets can be happy.

Strictly speaking, that will not achieve the goal as laid out by Russ in that podcast. You can not see your mech's legs, or back, from your cockpit, so those would be occluded, per your description.

Now, obviously, that isn't what you actually meant... but what are the ramifications of being able to see your legs and back? Presumably, you would see the damage occurring to your back as somebody is shooting it. Quite possibly, you'd be able to see that light mech that attached itself to your assault mech's leg, too. Those occurrences being visible provide an advantage.

The best ideas, IMO, that have been offered up to help address the concerns voiced by Russ in that podcast are.

1. A 3D wireframe replacement / addition to the existing 2D Damage paper doll display that we have now... with the wireframe actively reflecting the mechs torso vs legs orientation. [Yes, we already have 2 ways to discern that relationship.. but PGI has seen evidence that a number of newbies don't "get it" via those methods, and apparently they are concerned about short attention span'd individuals giving up in frustration]. This solution would allow them to put the visualization right there under the newbie noses (and the rest of ours, for that matter), without potentially giving anyone a tactical advantage. It could even be implemented without creating the training map / area (as much as that should be done anyways). I'd say this is the single best thing they could do to address the stated concern/issue. The ONLY potential downside I see is that it would require some time/coding to implement... but I'm guessing it would require a LOT less than implementing an external 3rd person view that somehow manages to avoid providing a tactical advantage. The positioning data must already exist in the game, and presumably would be easier to implement than some sort of occluded 3rd person view. I also think it would generate far less ill will amongst the existing player base that any implementation of a 3PV will. It would also be a solution that doesn't contradict what was said early on, about this being a 1PV game.

2. If a 3rd person view is just something that PGI / IGP will not let go, then the next best thing would be to limit it to a training map. Newbies could practice in there until they are ready to live in a 1st person view only in the regular combat that actually matters.

3. A distant 3rd, in my mind, would be to do the 3rd person view option in game play, with the provision that 1st person view players could specify/select that they will only play against other 1st person view players. This is a poor choice compared to the 1st two, in that it creates a split in the community, and introduces complications for the coming community warfare. PGI will have to judge whether there will be enough additional pilots added by including 3PV to overcome the community split issues and whatnot. While *I* don't think it is worth it, I also recognize that *I'm* not the guy that has to balance the books and keep the business going.

Choose well, PGI.

[Frenchtoastman]

DirePhoenix, on 21 November 2012 - 08:56 AM, said:

I'm not sure if you have a Selective Reading Disorder or are being purposely obtuse. First, you're promoting splitting the already pretty small playerbase into 1st-person-only and 3rd-person-only camps. We've only got 400K registered users right now. That's fine for a niche game in a niche genre, but kind of small for an MMO. You do NOT want to make the pool of available players any smaller. Second, how does my method give any useful tactical advantage? Yes you *might* see that there's a 'mech behind that hill in front of you, but most likely you'd have already known something was back there to begin with. While using the view as I've described, you can only LOOK. You can't shoot. You can't target. You have no HUD. You can't even change your movement or facing. In order to do any of that, you'd have to go back into first-person view inside the cockpit. It's only useful for looking around your 'mech and seeing that "oh there's a bunker in front of my shins keeping me from moving in that direction", or "oh my legs are all twisted up in the wrong direction", or "man, my 'mech looks sweet at this angle, I think I'll take a screenshot". Would it help you if this view also locked in the zoom so that your 'mech takes up most of the center screen, or do you think that we'd all have infinite zoom-out and could view the entire map in third-person? EDIT: We also have sensor module upgrades now, so I think that renders your "flanking" argument a bit moot anyway. And if you haven't noticed already, even without improved sensors, when a 'mech outside your field of view (like, behind you) shoots you, they already appear on your minimap for a few seconds.

I'm saying BOTH are bad, splitting the playerbase OR adding a 3rd person where every match has the option placed in. I think you've probably got the best solution so far IF it has to be added in for everyone in every match..but I still don't like it. I still think people will abuse it around corners or behind them (depending on the angle the devs choose).

I think the module thing only works so someone already on your radar won't dissappear behind you. I know shooting will give your position away (as it should), but that doesn't mean you can't sneak up until you're in a fantastic alpha-ing position first before firing. If everyone can constantly just check their own backs without twisting and without teammates, that means an end to those things. Less need for teamwork.

Also, I don't think your plan will at all please the people that truly want 3rd person as a playable mode.

I suppose I don't have anything against your idea if the zoom was such that you could see yourself, but nothing else (to check out cool paintjobs'n'such). Maybe it doesn't even have to be insane zoomed, just everything other than the map and your mech becomes invisible so you won't see enemies and their fire. I could accept that.
How's that sound to you? I think it would still help in the way you've stated, be cool for screenshots for the most part, AND wouldn't give ANY advantages.

Edited by Frenchtoastman, 21 November 2012 - 05:45 PM.

[Blastcaps]

3rd person might be a option if command console allows for 2 players in 1 mech kinda thing, allowing the commander to watch behind etc while using the command console command options, but with 1 person 1 mech, 3rd person view should not be put in, mwo is ment to be a mech "simulator" as it were and 3rd person view firmly belongs in the arcade style of games not a sim style game.

[Rejarial Galatan]

gonna go out on a limb and say: this patch broke something, and before anything else gets implemented, they need to take a look at the code using what ever debugging program they use and find not only what ever this patch broke, but every other flaw that is killing this game before any NEW content, be it mechs, maps, game modes or other features. the more complex they make this game right now with such a BAAAD foundation, is gonna lead to total collapse very quickly.

[Vechs]

So, let me get this straight.

The entire reason for them wanting to add 3rd person, is a few people at a con sucked at MWO and had the spatial awareness of a potato?

How dumb do you have to be to not understand the concept of a twisting torso above moving legs?

[MADSix]

Wish there was a way to dislike Russ's post in the command chair section of the forums. I vote no to 3rd person.