2926 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

from wiki:

please note the bold, this is what the urinary olympics is all about.

These games are closely related to first-person shooters,^[4] which also tie the perspective of the player to an avatar,^[3] but the two genres are distinct.^[5] While the first-person perspective allows players to aim and shoot without their avatar blocking their view,^[3] the third-person shooter shows the protagonist from an "over the shoulder shot" or "behind the back" perspective.^[4][6] Thus, the third-person perspective allows the game designer to create a more strongly characterized avatar,^[3] and directs the player's attention as if watching a film. In contrast, a first-person perspective provides the player with greater immersion into the game universe.^[7]

I want the latter because I have seen the gameplay attitude the former fosters.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 01 December 2012 - 12:40 PM.

[Weiland]

After seeing PGi cave repeatedly to the mouth-breather population, I'd honestly rather see the game die and be put to rest than wake up one morning and find that we now have 3rd Person view. I'm serious. They add this and I'm not playing anymore, despite how much I love this game.

And I'm also not alone.

[Alois Hammer]

Naeron66, on 29 November 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

3rd Person view should be implemented as a fixed camera rather than a floating one.

Yep. Fixed in the Mechbay, never to appear anywhere outside it. Good call.

[Kill3rAce]

I'll say it again do not add 3rd person that will not help out that pilots that are confused. They need to hop on the free public teamspeak servers and ask for help and I know for a fact someone will work with them including me.

[Rejarial Galatan]

D3lness, on 01 December 2012 - 05:36 AM, said:

So I see you have no bloody idea how 'hacks' work on server based games. You can't force people into first person. That's like saying that you can mess with people's mouse sensitivity through hacks. While I don't agree with third person, you have zero idea what you are talking about.

mmhmm. I may not be a coder, but, my ex has her effing bachelors degree in programming, and that post, was from her e-mail to me on the subject. and, guess what, you do not add in the 3rd person, you effectively FORCE them into First Person.

Canine, on 01 December 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I WANT TO SEE A POLL TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT 3RD PERSON.

The only reason i want 3rd person is I want to look at my mech strut around and see my personalised colours in action

BUT I WOULD HATE TO SEE 3RD PERSON USED AS AN ADVANTAGE IN COMBAT (aka look around corners) i mean what is this... mech assault... /wrist.

I'd advise one of these solutions so please let me know what you think.

1. 3rd Person view allowed for the first 30/60 seconds on the game or maybe even the camera could circle the mech before sitting in the mech cockpit (1st person)

2. A single camera probe launched and controlled that lasts for X seconds, I'd advise that this can only circle and concentrate on the users mech to limit using it as an advantage.

I'd like to add that I'm a firm believer that 3rd person is not for this game for use in combat.

hey, check this out: a POLL on if we want this garbage or not. http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Mylok]

NO on 3rd person. Keep it the way it is.

[Coolant]

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 December 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

mmhmm. I may not be a coder, but, my ex has her effing bachelors degree in programming, and that post, was from her e-mail to me on the subject. and, guess what, you do not add in the 3rd person, you effectively FORCE them into First Person.


hey, check this out: a POLL on if we want this garbage or not. http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

If you are trying to make a point please don't use hearsay from a 3rd party...

Secondly, as has been mentioned many times, that is a small portion of the members...last I checked 1%, but I'm not gonna do the math again, as the point has been made many times. The point has also been made that in the last MW game made (MW4:Mercs) it was just as easy to make a 1st person only server as it was a 3rd person...the 1st person only servers either did not exist or if they were there at all they were empty.

Thirdly, if you want to play in 1st Person against others that are only playing 1st Person you will have that option as it has been described to us. Almost 4000 posts and you got there by complaining about everything?

[Rejarial Galatan]

THEY sold us on it being 1st person. THEY <PGI> did. basing this game on games past, is nonsense. may as well base this game on the cartoon as well then, as IT was ALL third person there.

[grayson marik]

Oh come on ppl, its a small portion 1% blah... so where are all the thousands, who beg for 3rd?

You simply dont have them. Not as email to PGI through support lines, not really from game conventions... they are simply not there.

Now, the ones who dont want 3rd in the game make their voice heard in overwhelming numbers and you dont like the outcome of a public poll... you claim that there are MANY outside at the gates, who would just start playing and paying immediately when 3rd would be an option?

Come on.... :-P

[Fides]

Well it would be nice to have a third person perspective as an option, I can think of some circumstances where that would really be awesome

[Weiland]

Fides, on 02 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Well it would be nice to have a third person perspective as an option, I can think of some circumstances where that would really be awesome

It's a blessing that you're not in the majority. That said, PGI seems to have a habit of catering to the minority, so I wouldn't be surprised if you get your wish. Here comes MechAssault Online...

Mark my words. If 3P does get in, it'll see a huge chunk of the playerbase leave. I know for many it would be the last straw.

[Henric Pryde]

I despise 3rd person view. Just a way to cheat terrain. If 3rd person is introduced into this game, I will stop supporting it with my money and go play MWLL exclusively.

Edited by Nekhron Kirov, 02 December 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Just saw the link to the poll & added my vote. PGI can either listen to the player base (as they claim to do) or push people away & into the loving embrace of MWLL or Kerensky forbid, Hawken. No means no.

[CyBerkut]

So, now Russ has done a second podcast appearance, and the case for considering an implementation of a 3rd person view is being laid more upon drawing in more players who flat out prefer 3PV. [Thanks, Russ... that came across as a good bit more credible / well-reasoned.] He also seemed to be pretty open to segregating 3PV play via the match making system.

If 3PV play is to be made available, then segregating it via the match making system seems to be a reasonably viable option. I'm not overly concerned about splitting the player base, as in theory it should increase the player base size overall. I don't think we'll lose all that many out of the 1PV side of things, and if it manages to bring in significant additional $$$ for PGI while not screwing up 1PV play... that sounds like a good thing (in and of itself).

I'll note that I didn't hear what they would do with the upcoming Community Warfare, if this gets implemented. Would they run parallel Communities? It would seem that they would have to, in order to avoid the 1PV vs 3PV teams battling for the same planet scenario.

If they implement segregation via the match maker, and also in Community Warfare, then the remaining concern would be the client getting hacked to make the 3PV available to someone in a 1PV only match. That is not a trivial concern in my view, and pointing out that other things can be done (ie. making mechs appear to glow, or putting floating billboards over them) doesn't really negate that. If 3PV mechanics are programmed into the client, it makes it easier to exploit. Reality is however, there is already stuff going on that needs to be addressed (ie. an autoaim bot). It looks like some kind of punkbuster-like solution needs to be added in, sadly.

[Coolant]

grayson marik, on 02 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Oh come on ppl, its a small portion 1% blah... so where are all the thousands, who beg for 3rd?

You simply dont have them. Not as email to PGI through support lines, not really from game conventions... they are simply not there.

Now, the ones who dont want 3rd in the game make their voice heard in overwhelming numbers and you dont like the outcome of a public poll... you claim that there are MANY outside at the gates, who would just start playing and paying immediately when 3rd would be an option?

Come on.... :-P

Because those players are not die-hard MW or BT players...they are players that are currently playing other games that we hope come over and build the player base so there are plenty of funds for a long time down the road to pay the staff and developers to fix bugs and generate new content for years to come...and btw, may not be used to looking one way and yet being smashed up against a building going another. This so-called poll was seen on this sight alone among rabid MW/BT fans...not sure why you don't think the poll is biased. Someone create a poll over at another popular game forum that is 3rd person and see how they vote...

[LordBraxton]

Coolant, on 02 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Because those players are not die-hard MW or BT players...they are players that are currently playing other games that we hope come over and build the player base so there are plenty of funds for a long time down the road to pay the staff and developers to fix bugs and generate new content for years to come...and btw, may not be used to looking one way and yet being smashed up against a building going another. This so-called poll was seen on this sight alone among rabid MW/BT fans...not sure why you don't think the poll is biased. Someone create a poll over at another popular game forum that is 3rd person and see how they vote...

Adding third person isn't going to magically attract hordes of people.

The game itself has to do that regardless of camera perspective, if this game was bug free and easy on new players it would attract more dedicated players.

3rd person dosen't make it easier for anyone it just changes the entire way the game is played, in a very bad way

[LynxFury]

"3rd person dosen't make it easier for anyone it just changes the entire way the game is played, in a very bad way"

Only in our opinion. Whether we like it or not there are a lot of people who don't think our way is the best; they have a less uptight perspective on the "game," recognize one shouldn't take a riding in a giant robot stomper with stupidly unrealistic profile shapes and idiotically short weapons range etc. very seriously; they just want to relax and have fun without unnecessary complexity or self-imposed limits.

And since we won't have to play with them it won't effect us at all.

Edited by LynxFury, 02 December 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Alois Hammer]

grayson marik, on 02 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Oh come on ppl, its a small portion 1% blah... so where are all the thousands, who beg for 3rd?

They exist only in the fevered imaginations of Devs who dream (in vain) of poaching huge numbers of WoT players.

[von Pilsner]

Fides, on 02 December 2012 - 06:24 AM, said:

Well it would be nice to have a third person perspective as an option, I can think of some circumstances where that would really be awesome

Pop-tart jump sniping comes to mind.... Perhaps they will give us a good JJ sniper so we can make it like MW4...

[DirePhoenix]

Canine, on 01 December 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I WANT TO SEE A POLL TO SEE HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY WANT 3RD PERSON.

The only reason i want 3rd person is I want to look at my mech strut around and see my personalised colours in action

BUT I WOULD HATE TO SEE 3RD PERSON USED AS AN ADVANTAGE IN COMBAT (aka look around corners) i mean what is this... mech assault... /wrist.

I'd advise one of these solutions so please let me know what you think.

1. 3rd Person view allowed for the first 30/60 seconds on the game or maybe even the camera could circle the mech before sitting in the mech cockpit (1st person)

2. A single camera probe launched and controlled that lasts for X seconds, I'd advise that this can only circle and concentrate on the users mech to limit using it as an advantage.

I'd like to add that I'm a firm believer that 3rd person is not for this game for use in combat.

Ok, first, I'd like to state for the record that I do not want a third-person combat view.

But more importantly, I think I need to reiterate what I've said elsewhere:

ONLINE FORUM POLLS ARE COMPLETELY USELESS FOR GATHERING ANY SORT OF RELIABLE DATA IN REGARDS TO A LARGER POPULATION

If you want to make your opinion heard, make threads, make posts, but stop thinking that poll results here have meanings that extend beyond anything other than the opinions of the individuals that participated in them. They do not. There is no such thing as a "Representative Sample" in a poll where the data comes from users that can choose whether or not they participate, or are even aware that they are being polled in the first place (yes, the even the very knowledge that they are being polled can create bias). These polls are all unrepresentative samples, examples of fallacious thinking, and we need to stop pretending they mean what they do not.

Now, previously in this thread, I had posted that only about 1% of the total playerbase had even participated on that poll. That was based on the total number of users listed on the bottom of the forums being the total playerbase, being that in order to download and play MWO, users have to create an account which is automatically tied to the forums. However, since NG/NG's latest podcast with Russ Bullock and several other recent devposts, it has been revealed that the number indicated only represents the number of users that have visited the forums, meaning that the total playerbase is even larger than the number that is displayed. So in reality, the number of people that participated in the poll is less than even 1% of the total playerbase.

==============================

Now, hopefully with that erroneous method of thinking behind us I can try and get back to the actual topic at hand (oh, who am I kidding, a good portion of you are probably so obstinately poised into one point of view that you won't change it or will take a vocal opposing position just because you can, but I'd like to see someone prove me wrong about that).

Maybe it's because of my mechanical engineering background, and more recently as a programmer, but I prefer coming up with solutions rather than stomping my foot on the ground and refusing change (and being that I'm not the one making this game, surely that stance would be meaningless no matter what decision they make). Now we know that some people have issues with being locked in first-person cockpit view and not being able to conceptualize their 'mech's orientation in the world around them. The number is irrelevant. All that is relevant is that it's a problem to some. Even if it's only a problem for a few people doesn't mean that it's any less of an issue (For example, a relatively small percentage of people are color blind. It doesn't mean that having similar shades of colors in the UI are not a problem {I'm not sure if that example means I just said that people that can't conceptualize their 'mechs in 3D space are physically handicapped}). We also know that the primary goal of this game is to put the players in the perspective of the pilot, to make the players feel like they are the 'MechWarrior inside, not the 'Mech itself. A number of people want to keep this perspective. This number is also irrelevant. However, being that it is the stated goal of the game, it does bear more weight.

So, how can you keep the original vision of putting the players in the pilot's seat, while enabling users to see how their 'mech is physically oriented (despite all the already included HUD indicators)? There have been several proposals already. Even I made one.

Some people suggest a wireframe or 3D model of the 'mech in the HUD. Unfortunately I don't know if they're capable of portraying that additional amount of data in a CryEngine UI, and even if they did, I don't think it would provide the relational information about the 'mech's orientation in regards to its surroundings that the players that are having these issues need.

Some people have suggested a UAV or probe camera module. While this could thematically fit into the game's atmosphere, it would be useless for the people actually having issues. The new players that aren't used to cockpit sims and can't figure out which way their torsos and legs are facing aren't going to have the XP or C-Bills to purchase one of those modules and will probably just quit before they gain the resources for the module (let alone the 'mechs to use the module in).

Some people have suggested to segregate the game into separate 1st and 3rd person games. This is the least viable option, even if you're talking about a playerbase of 100,000 (yes, I'm calling you out on this NG/NG Phil). The playerbase is already going to be split across the multiple factions. You don't want to split the pool of available players to play with and against even more.

In my own solution, I describe a 3rd-person non-combat view.

What this means is that when using this view, players can NOT:

• Fire weapons
  
• Target enemies
  
  • Which means they can also not relay targeting data to their teammates
• Use the HUD
  
  • This is just a camera view. No HUD means no status displays, no target info, no target brackets or indicators, no minimap, no crosshairs
• Change their 'mech's facing, direction, or velocity.
  
  • Throttles are locked while in this view (if you were moving forward when you hopped out of the cockpit you keep moving forward), and you can't pilot your 'mech until you hop back into your cockpit.

However, players CAN view their 'mechs from an external view, which means:

• New/confused players can see their 'mech in relation to their surroundings to get their bearings on which way their 'mechs are facing
  
• Players can take sweet screenshots of their heavy metal death machines on the battlefield
  
• Also, this view is zoom-locked so that the player's 'mech takes up most of the screen

I believe this will provide a solution for the issues that have been brought up with only having the view being locked into first person cockpit view, while not segregating and splitting the playerbase, and not providing a tactical edge* while using the 3rd person camera.

*While an Atlas could spot a light mech outflanking and trying to sneak up from behind (this is the example that tries to get used most often), by the time that Atlas pilot figures out that tiny moving, undesignated blob is 1) A Jenner, and 2) An enemy, that enemy Jenner is probably 3) already firing on them, at which point the Atlas pilot would have to hop back into their cockpit, and move to face the enemy target that they would have probably seen and maybe even have shown up on the radar anyway. Not a tactical advantage.