11 replies to this topic

[Evex]

Seeing that heat management is hotly debated topic, no pun intended, on the forums. It got me to thinking, is there a way to determine the efficient amount of heat sinks that a battle mech should use ? In my head and when I try to place myself in the battle mech warrior universe. My mind says a battle mech warrior would be trying to get a battle mech that's the most efficient they can get it, while generating them the most credits. This leads use to the topic title determining the efficient amount of heat sinks for a battle mech. Lets take a basic battle mech in a stock configuration, for simplicity sake we'll go with the commando. What it was the first mech to pop into my head. To be specific lets go with the standard COM-2D variant.

The COM-2D Commando has a single SRM-4, SRM-6 and a medium laser. This generates 12 heat total for the COM-2D Commando. With its stock 10 heat sinks the battle mech leaves two heat after cooling down from an alpha strike. In theory we can presume this is the heat cost when the battle mech is standing still. When the mech is moving 2 additional heat can be applied to the battle mechs weapons. When moving the COM-2D Commando alpha strike can be said to generate 16 heat. This is four more heat then when the battle mech is standing still, and has a residual of six heat. Now lets say we wanted to keep the battle mech with in two heat after it cooled off. In order to do that the COM-2D Commando would need 14 heat sinks, which stock it doesn't have room for. This would of course bring the standing heat to -2, but is this the most efficient use of heat sinks for this battle mech ? How does one go about determining the efficient amount of heat sinks for any particular variant of a battle mech ?

[Lyteros]

every normal heatsink lowers by 0.1 per second, every double 0.2 in engine and 0.14 outside engine.

Divide weapon heat by the firing rate (3 heat every 3 sec => 1 heat per sec) and divide that by the heatsink values.
So in this case you'd need 10 heatsinks for beeing heat neutral. You dont need to be completely neutral tough, just get 70-80% of it and you should be fine. (Yes, high heat weapons suck, exact maths why are found in various topics)

Roughly a heat value in the mechlab from 1,3 to 1,4 should work too, for a very easy way to see if you need more.

And try Ohm's charts:
http://mwomercs.com/...s-excel-inside/

[John Norad]

Efficient amount of heat sinks very much depends on the way you play.

For hit and run tactics you need far less heat sinks than for stand and deliver slugfests, where you want to fire most of your weapons as often as possible, basically until your target is destroyed, without overheating.

[MustrumRidcully]

Yes, there are ways to determining efficient amount of heat sinks. From the current experience in the game, I would suggest looking for a value that allows you to fire your "relevant" weapons without overheating in less than 20 seconds. You should usually experience this as "long enough" for most engagements. Heat Neutrality is a benchmark to determine aspects on weapon balance or general heat cost of a weapon, but when you want to know what your mech can do on a typical engagement, you will find heat neutrality to be a bit too conservative.

So, some math:
First, let's define some terms
:
H_G: Generated Heat (per second)
H_C: Heat Capacity
H_D: Heat Dissipated (per second)
T_S: TIme to shutdown
T_R: Time to recover to 0 heat after a shutdown

when H_D > H_G:

T_S = H_C / (H_G - H_D)

when H_D < H_G:
T_R = H_C / (H_D H_G)

To get into more detail (for heat system as of 2012/11/17).

n_s: Number of Heat Sinks
n_de: Number of Double Heat Sinks in Engine
n_do: Number of Double Heat Sinks outside of Engine

Heat Dissipation:
H_c = 30 + n_s
H_c = 30 + 2 * n_de + 1.4 * n_do

Heat Generation:
H_d = n_s * (0.1 / second)
H_d = (n_de * 0.2 + n_do * 0.14) / second

So, if we insert these values into the above formula for time to shutdown

T_s = (30 + n_s) / (H_G - (n_s * (0.1 / second))
T_s = (30 + 2 * n_de + 1.4 * n_do) / (H_G - (n_de * 0.2 + n_do * 0.14) / second)


Now ,mind you -this is still an "idealized" value, since the damage in reality comes in discrete steps, not "per second wise", but in packages depending on your rate of fire of the different weapons. It is usually a bit higher than it actually is - and it can be about as higher as at least one full weapon cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that can fire every 3 seconds, and your calculation suggests with your setup you could last for 17 seconds, it's like you would overheat on the shot you take at 15 seconds.

To get the Heat Generation of each weapon, take its heat per shot and divide it by its recycle time. (For lasers, remember to add the laser beam duration to the regular weapon cooldown.) Or just take the values Ohmwrecker chart from the Guides forum.

To go back about what you may want your "T_S" to be:
I would aim for 20 seconds, but I usually prefer a bit "brawly" style of combat. That means that I usually have to sustain my damage for a bit. If you're a sniper and do not expect to get off more than 2 to 3 shots, before either you or the target get back to cover, you may do fine with a Ts of 9-12 (For most "snipery" weapon rate of fires, this should give you enough time for 3-4 shots, giving you a small error margin).
If you're a striker that moves in and out of brawls, you may have similar estimates.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 17 November 2012 - 08:23 AM.

[Lyteros]

MustrumRidcully, as right as you are and as good your posts are - you really think people will start calculating trough that on every mech and every change on it?

[Ghost73]

The firing rates in the game don't match the heat dissipation rates because they tend to fire more than once every 10 seconds, so you should not compare only the heat values to the heat dissipation of HSs. The firing rate of the weapon is just as important because that way you can figure the heat per second generated by the individual weapon. However, don't expect to be able to place enough heat sinks in a mech to be able to completely neutralize heat from a high heat weapon system, ever.

Also, when calculating the number of HSs you need for a weapon, you want to guesstimate the amount of damage you expect to fire from the weapon (not necessarily deal) in a typical engagement, where there are usually multiple engagements in a single match. If you expect long engagements, you'll want more HSs so you can fire your weapons for longer. If you expect short engagements, you trade less HSs for more firepower. The length of engagement depends on the role of your mech, but typically faster mechs such as strikers and scouts can expect shorter engagements because they can break off from a fight, but assaults, brawlers, and snipers will usually have longer engagements with enemies because of their limited mobility and the slugfest nature of their mechs.

Since weapon efficiency is really a calculation of the amount of damage you can deal in a given amount of time versus the weight of the system, HS are not the only thing besides the weapon itself that takes up mass. If the weapon you are using is ammo dependent, then you also have to consider the amount of damage you expect to fire during the course of the whole match.

The actual math for finding the efficiency of a given weapon system is pretty convoluted mostly because of the way the game deals with HS, namely HS not only increase dissipation but also heat capacity, which they fail to mention anywhere in game. Then there are other critieria and varibles for finding the exact efficiency of a weapon that are dependent on a lot of other factors that change from match to match. So at best you are going to find a decent estimate of the efficiency of the weapon, but there is no true value because as I said before its just to much to consider all at once.

Edited by Ghost73, 17 November 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Lyteros, on 17 November 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

MustrumRidcully, as right as you are and as good your posts are - you really think people will start calculating trough that on every mech and every change on it?

If they are really serious about optimizing, I woludn't be surprised if some did.

For the rest... Would be neat to provide some kind of spreadsheet doing all those calculations for them, wouldn't it?
Or maybe someone can kidnap some of the PGIs GUI guys and force him to hack the math into the Mech Lab UI, replacing their meaningless Heat Efficiency stat?

[Liteshow]

MustrumRidcully, on 17 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Yes, there are ways to determining efficient amount of heat sinks. From the current experience in the game, I would suggest looking for a value that allows you to fire your "relevant" weapons without overheating in less than 20 seconds. You should usually experience this as "long enough" for most engagements. Heat Neutrality is a benchmark to determine aspects on weapon balance or general heat cost of a weapon, but when you want to know what your mech can do on a typical engagement, you will find heat neutrality to be a bit too conservative.

So, some math:
First, let's define some terms
:
H_G: Generated Heat (per second)
H_C: Heat Capacity
H_D: Heat Dissipated (per second)
T_S: TIme to shutdown
T_R: Time to recover to 0 heat after a shutdown

when H_D > H_G:

T_S = H_C / (H_G - H_D)

when H_D < H_G:
T_R = H_C / (H_D H_G)

To get into more detail (for heat system as of 2012/11/17).

n_s: Number of Heat Sinks
n_de: Number of Double Heat Sinks in Engine
n_do: Number of Double Heat Sinks outside of Engine

Heat Dissipation:
H_c = 30 + n_s
H_c = 30 + 2 * n_de + 1.4 * n_do

Heat Generation:
H_d = n_s * (0.1 / second)
H_d = (n_de * 0.2 + n_do * 0.14) / second

So, if we insert these values into the above formula for time to shutdown

T_s = (30 + n_s) / (H_G - (n_s * (0.1 / second))
T_s = (30 + 2 * n_de + 1.4 * n_do) / (H_G - (n_de * 0.2 + n_do * 0.14) / second)


Now ,mind you -this is still an "idealized" value, since the damage in reality comes in discrete steps, not "per second wise", but in packages depending on your rate of fire of the different weapons. It is usually a bit higher than it actually is - and it can be about as higher as at least one full weapon cycle. For example, if you have a weapon that can fire every 3 seconds, and your calculation suggests with your setup you could last for 17 seconds, it's like you would overheat on the shot you take at 15 seconds.

To get the Heat Generation of each weapon, take its heat per shot and divide it by its recycle time. (For lasers, remember to add the laser beam duration to the regular weapon cooldown.) Or just take the values Ohmwrecker chart from the Guides forum.

To go back about what you may want your "T_S" to be:
I would aim for 20 seconds, but I usually prefer a bit "brawly" style of combat. That means that I usually have to sustain my damage for a bit. If you're a sniper and do not expect to get off more than 2 to 3 shots, before either you or the target get back to cover, you may do fine with a Ts of 9-12 (For most "snipery" weapon rate of fires, this should give you enough time for 3-4 shots, giving you a small error margin).
If you're a striker that moves in and out of brawls, you may have similar estimates.

Ack! Math! There is none of that to be had here! I don't need no stinkin math to know when my mech is heat efficient!
*Runs off, overheats, and explodes.*

[Ghosth]

Method I use

on dropping into the game I

A Fire weapons (hold trigger down)
(note peak heat) when weapons recycle they fire again.
(Again note heat, note heat gain, do quick math in head). Ok I can alpha X times before I need to watch heat.

Go play match, if it is on Caustic set primary weapon to Chainfire.

Note if heat gained is low I'm fine, if heat gain is very high I probably want to mix up my weapons, split into groups or setup chainfire or all of the above.

Also a brawler needs more weapons (and thus higher heat) so he can kill the mech he is facing quickly.
Where a sniper can run with fewer weapons and run more of a heat neutral build and concentrate more long long range targets, less on managing heat.

So a lot depends on style.

Edited by Ghosth, 17 November 2012 - 10:41 AM.

[Vincent Lynch]

play styles vary so much that I'd say, simply do your build and try it out in battle.

[Martini Henrie]

I go by feel. There are charts that give you heat values, ranges and refire rates. I use them to get the weapon range bands set. I then see which range band requires the largest number of sinks and apply as necessary.

For example, my atlas has 2xlrms and a gauss rifle at long and mid range, which then flips to gauss and mpls at shorter ranges. I only plan on firing the lasers 3 or 4 times as I would normally have reduced assaults at range and only need to finish the last but off with lasers.

Plan your build roughly, if you're not that bothered about maths, and fine tune it with in game experience. I have a couple of builds that suck on paper, but net me a boat load of xp and kills in game!

[MustrumRidcully]

Lyteros, on 17 November 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

MustrumRidcully, as right as you are and as good your posts are - you really think people will start calculating trough that on every mech and every change on it?

Addendum: I made a calculator tool / Spread Sheet for those that prefer to do less math:

https://docs.google....c1NDM0xuS05zM0E

(You will need to download it to edit it yourself, though)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 18 November 2012 - 11:05 AM.