29 replies to this topic

[Zergling]

I purchased endo-steel on my Hunchback for 500,000 credits, which is fair enough for an upgrade, but the problem is it can't be changed back to standard structure without paying 250,000 credits again.

And even worse, I have to buy endo-steel for 500,000 credits AGAIN if I want to re-equip it!


This is a tremendously bad move by the Devs, as it severely restricts Mech customisation.

Endo-steel and other upgrade options need to be permamently unselectable/reselectable without additional credit costs once purchased.

This is absolutely essential; I'm shocked the Devs have even let this occur, for it is such a bad idea.

Devs, please fix this ASAP in the next patch. I cannot stress this enough.

[Teutonne]

I second this, it needs to be fixed asap.

[DegeneratePervert]

Made the same mistake with the heatsink upgrade earlier. I'm sure it'll be changed so you can switch them at will.

[Honiara]

I'm sorry but I actually disagee.

PGI is here to make a good and profitable game, after all they are a company. While I can see that this would be nice for you to have it will also remove a money sink in the game. Having a C-Bills money sink in game helps stop inflation so that new items that are released are not priced so high that it would put off new customers.

While having a cost of 1.5mil / 500k to equip and unequip is not that much. If you were to upgrade to a premium account you could EASILY farm 100k per game (in 10mins, assuming a win).

I can already hear you say 'but this is a f2p game', and yes it is but if you want to make life easier for your self then you will need to pay some money, just like if you played LoL or WoT.

Thanks Honiara

Edited by Honiara, 31 October 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Zergling]

Honiara, on 31 October 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I'm sorry but I actually disagee.

PGI is here to make a good and profitable game, after all they are a company. While I can see that this would be nice for you to have it will also remove a money sink in the game. Having a C-Bills money sink in game helps stop inflation so that new items that are released are not priced so high that it would put off new customers.

While having a cost of 1.5mil / 500k to equip and unequip is not that much. If you were to upgrade to a premium account you could EASILY farm 100k per game (in 10mins, assuming a win).

I can already hear you say 'but this is a f2p game', and yes it is but if you want to make life easier for your self then you will need to pay some money, just like if you played LoL or WoT.

Thanks Honiara

You clearly have no idea about what attracts players to Battletech and MechWarrior.

It's the CUSTOMISATION!!! And this kills a large portion of that customisation.

Every other game has problems with cash accumulation and inflation; there are better ways to deal with it than creating a massive cash sink that kills a large part of the reason people are attracted to the game.


It needs to be urgently changed so that once purchased, upgrades are permamently selectable/un-selectable without additional credit costs.

[Eizel Crow]

Not a rage.

I think that if you purchase the improvement for your mech and then decide to change it back you should be able to. For that mech only. If you take off an AC/20 it is not gone it is in your stock pile. The same should happen to these internals, heat sinks and anything else they want to add on later. If you purchased it you still own it until you sell it. Lets just get every item on the customization list and have a descent base line for the money problem. it works all the way around.

Next are they going to start limiting salvage to the actual parts and not money?

Edited by Eizel Crow, 31 October 2012 - 03:10 PM.

[NegativeEntropy]

An argument could be made for "installation cost" of major upgrades that one already has in inventory (i.e. swapping back and forth between endo-steel and regular), though no such cost applies to weapons today.

I agree that much of the allure of the game is mech customization and any significant tax on this is bad for the overall experience.

[PapaKilo]

Changing a weapon out is a minor upgrade.

Changing out the entire 'Mech skeleton and/or the entire cooling system and/or the entire armor protection is a huge undertaking.

It makes sense that those three would need to have an associated cost to both upgrade and downgrade.

[MrMainiac]

I agree with PapaKilo and Honiara.

The process of upgrading your mech like this is telling the engineers that fix and maintain your mechs to reconfigure its skeletal structure, replace all armor with new and bulkier armor, or converting the cooling system of your mech to use double heat sinks instead of single. The price to go back and forth is more paying your engineers to do a major change to your mech.

Now I understand that this is very annoying to pay to go back and forth, but our devs are trying to make this more realistic as they can w/o causing the game to suck. This is a minor thing to deal with and should be dealt with by everybody.

What I suggest and has been brought up by the devs is to have the mech lab setup so you can switch between your upgrade and loadout tabs w/o committing to paying for something you don't want. It would be nicer to do that so you can see how your mech turns out with the upgrades and variant you want to run your mech with. Makes things simpler while keeping it how it is and should be.

[DocBach]

I accidentally bought endo steel for a mech that it just was too much free tonnage for. It was an honest mistake but I understand that it was virtually having techs rip out and replace the skeleton of my 'Mech which should be expensive... I sort of dig that its expensive either way. It makes me really think out and deliberately plan my 'Mech. However I would like to see the structure and other upgrades in the actual 'Mech lab so I can play with my build before clicking ok.

Edited by DocBach, 31 October 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[Arkmaus]

I'm pretty sure I read a post from one of the devs that stated purchases being made permanent will be coming. I wish IU could find a link, perhaps it was on Twitter?

[DarklightCA]

I know a trick to avoid paying the costs of changing them out.

Step 1) Figure out what upgrades your mech needs
Step 2) Purchase those upgrades
Step 3) Stick with those upgrades

Nothing is stopping you from customization but I honestly cannot see why a person would keep changing out the mechs structure constantly other then testing them out. Once you figure out how you want to customize your mech, including the bigger upgrades then you have no reason to switch back.

Should you wish to switch back, as people said above these upgrades are major replacements and as such should have a cost to exchanging them out everytime you do so. I agree with DocBach, what really needs to be fixed is allowing people to play with builds for there mech in the loadout screen to see if everything will fit before having to purchase it. Right now it's trial and error. You have to save the weapon loadout screen to access the customization for the bigger upgrades. Would be nice if they were connected somehow so you can switch between them without having to exit one menu to access the other.

Edited by DemonicD3, 31 October 2012 - 09:06 PM.

[Yelruh]

I think everyone here is correct actually. I belive the initial cost should be that high yes. BUT, once you have bought it, you should not have to pay full tote odds to put it back to standard. Say, 1.5mil for initial (as it is now), and say 250k for further changes, be it change back to standard, or then switch it across to endo steel once again.

In addition to this, maybe the option of selling the structures not in use? So, sell endo steel already bought for 625k (Initial cost 1.25mil, 250k installation, so sell price 625k) and sell standard for 125k (250k buy standard, 250k installation, so sell price is 125k).
Of course you would then have to pay the full prices for change if you have sold the structure you are not using, and want to go back to it.

This helps the massive money sink that is currently there, and adds some customisation too.

Cheers,
Yelruh

[Hayashi]

Given that FF armour and ES internals are more or less a complete overhaul, I don't think they should be revertable the same way weapons are. Your techs aren't going to keep a second Mech's worth of internals lying around in the garage the way they would keep a weapon.

However, since upgrading/downgrading = ripping out the old skeleton and fitting the new one in, the cost of a new Jenner + endo steel, for example, should be lower than the cost of a new Jenner with standard internals followed by the additional price of the endo steel upgrade, since some labour doesn't need to be done and less materials are used. Ditto for FF armour.

Double heat sink upgrades, however, should be revertable since that doesn't screw with the chassis of your Mech.

[Mordhar]

I actually think that EVERY customization in mechlab should cost money. Not only upgrades, but also weapon changes and so on. But NOT NOW, perhaps 2-3 months later.

For now, mechlab lacks descriptions for parts/mechs/upgrades. It makes customization a trial and error process.

Example #1: you want to purchase a mech for dual gauss/AC20 config. Let’s buy an Atlas! Mechlab says it have dual ballistic harpoints and much more tonnage than Catapult. What? Both hardpoints in RT, and there is not enough space for two large ballistic weapons. Sell it and buy Dragon (3 hardpoints should be enough). Sell Dragon…

Example #2: you want to make your mech lighter. And have 14 unused crits. Which one is better Ferro-fibrous or endo-steel? Buy armor, test it, sell and buy skeleton. Than test it, sell and buy armor again.

I think weapon and upgrades should be swapped for free at this point. And option for install upgrade without paying its cost until you complete other customizations would be even better.
When descriptions for mechlab become ready, it can be changed.

[Cest7]

Get rid of it or reduce its cost to 1/10th... something

[Zergling]

Actually, fluff text wise, ferro-fibrous armor upgrades are usually significantly easier than replacing weapons, because the armor is all mounted externally on the Mech's skeletal frame, above all other equipment.
If the weight distribution remains the same, then it would be a lot simpler than moderate weapon refits.

Upgrading heat sinks to doubles isn't too complex either; there are usually some weight and volume shifts, plus replacement of the engine internal heat sinks, but overall it is only as complex as a moderate weapon refit.

Endo-steel... yeah, that usually requires a factory refit or a LOT of downtime to perform.

[Least Action Jackson]

I'm warming to the idea that swapping upgrades shouldn't be free, but right now the costs are prohibitive. Once you own an upgrade for a mech, swapping back and forth should be some lower flat rate fee (possibly representing the hard work of imaginary engineers and techs). This should be less of a problem when the devs implement a loadout system in which you can fully kit out a mech to preview what it will be like before committing to buying it, but paying full price every time you want to change upgrades you already own is ridiculous.

[Joe Mallad]

PapaKilo, on 31 October 2012 - 05:51 PM, said:

Changing a weapon out is a minor upgrade.

Changing out the entire 'Mech skeleton and/or the entire cooling system and/or the entire armor protection is a huge undertaking.

It makes sense that those three would need to have an associated cost to both upgrade and downgrade.

I see your point but i have to disagree to a point. Yes swaping out 1 weapon may be a minor upgrade/downgrade but if i want ALL my weapons swaped out for a whole new weapon set, that isnt a major upgrade? And if changing out internal structure, HS and Armor is such a major upgrade and we should be charged for it to upgrade or downgrade then shouldnt changing out an engine be a major change to a mech that would call for a maintenance cost?

When you have to first buy any of the upgrades for your mech... i can see a cost but once you buy them and decide to downgrade when you see fit, i dont agree with being charged again to do so. At least not at the cost they have now.

[Widghet]

The devs are fixing the "save at every step" issue that is going on right now. They intend to allow you to "see what it looks like" with different upgrades/weapons/engines ect before you lock in the cost of it. However, it makes sence to charge you to go back and forth with upgrades. Hell, I think there should be a small charge to make any changes to your mech, after all you have to pay the labor for these changes right? Changing weapons and moving heatsinks around and changing engines takes time and money to get done. Major changes should cost a hefty amount to go back and forth. yes changing all weapons would be major work, but still less then the skeleton and armor of the whole mech.

to the devs DON'T CHANGE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!