42 replies to this topic

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StrataDragoon, on 18 November 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

I wonder if OP's like this game actually plays the game or just sit on forums and figure out calculations not made by them?

TLDR: Huh?

I barely understand your sentence, but if you are asking if I "actually play the game", then I have to ask if you actually read my post?

My entire point is that practical experience within the game with the different kinds of weapons are just as important, or even more so, than the pure numbers you get from a reference guide. The numbers are important, sure, but it's not the final deciding factor for me.

[Card]

When weighing the merits of a particular weapon system, the only criteria that really matters to me is whether or not I can actually hit something with it.

Unfortunately, I can't hit anybody with anything, so that doesn't narrow the field down all that much.

Edited by Card, 18 November 2012 - 07:55 AM.

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MustrumRidcully, on 18 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's simple - because it does matter.

I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I'm saying I don't understand the obsession, but other then that I completely agree with your post

Card, on 18 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

When weighing the merits of a particular weapon system, the only criteria that really matters to me is whether or not I can actually hit something with it. Unfortunately, I can't hit anybody with anything, so that doesn't narrow the field down all that much.

I Lol'ed

Try homing missiles and shotguns, the go-to options for the aiming impaired

[Stone Wall]

Lasers.

[Tuku]

Ya know what....I rolled out in a catapult with dual ac2 to see what all the fuss was about....I found that the bigger effect that they have is suppressing fire! Yes they do plenty of DPS technically but its all spread out. When you here that going off though....the BOOM BOOM BOOM and then you are shaking every second or so and all you see is flashing on your paper doll because the rounds aren't giving it enough time to settle down and stop flashing it makes people get moving behind cover. Constant damage is a powerful thing. Not so much because of raw killing potential but because of the ability to make an LRM boat get behind cover from across the map because they cant be sure where they are being shot at from.

[Mavairo]

Some weapons are just balls in this game.

Either because their damage per shot is just pathetic (machine gun), or because they weigh so much that their damage output just ain't worth it. (AC20)

In that in between range things get more interesting. The AC2, isn't really a good DPS weapon to use it for High DPS means you must have 2 of them on your mech. Those 2 AC2s burn through an incredible amount of ammunition and generate alot of heat. Mind you, Heat Neutral builds don't really work all that well (in my opinion) due to their low burst potential but the AC2 ruins alot of repeated high burst attacks. (like having a pair of LLs on board, or even alot of smalls)

If you need alot of damage, in a shorter time obviously the higher damage lower ROF weapons are more what you need. If you need quicker firing cycles, the faster weapons become more useful. (ie you can't aim very well. Or you can aim incredibly well. one of the two)

Some of my most successful mechs are bursters. (a gauss is also a burst weapon) This is mainly due to my a little better than average aiming skills and great reflexes. I can pull a snap shot off pretty reliably and then move on. In a combined arms situation, you need both sustained and burst damage. the burst damage knocks off Huge amounts of armor in a single go, which allows for the sustained weapons to finish the job. (though my average kills per match is 2 to 3 which in a dragon is pretty good, even on my burster)

Weight and heat though plays a tremendous factor in what weapons you should be fielding. Some weapons really are just too heavy for what they bring ot the table (AC5, and AC20. LPLs)

[AEgg]

MustrumRidcully, on 18 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's simple - because it does matter. Let's say you have one weapn that deals 5 damage every 4 seconds. And the other deals 5 damage every 3 seconds. All other things are equal. Do you believe that the two weapons are equally powerful? If you need to chew through 30 points of armour - which of these two weapons would be better? The one that can do it in 18 seconds or the one that can do it in 24 seconds? You see how much DPS matters here, don't you? Now, is it the only statistic that matters? Obviously not. And for the same reason more than DPS can matter in games like Diablo or WoW, too - it matters how long you need to sustain your damage output (e.g. stay visible, stay in range, stay on target) to get there. If you deal 20 damage every 4 seconds that can better than dealing 5 damage every second, for example. There is a difference whether you deliver x DPS with a hit-scan weapon or x DPS with a weapon with a slow projectile or x DPS with a weapon with a fast projectile. It matters whether you need to spend 10 tons for 5 DPS or 5 tons for 4 DPS. It matters whether your 4 DPS generates 2 HPS or whether your 3.75 DPS generates .25 heat per second. It matters whether you can sustain 5 DPS for 5 seconds or for 20 seconds. It matters whether you can sustain 5 DPS for 5 seconds and 1 DPS for 35 seconds, or 1.5 DPS for 40 seconds.

The point that you're missing is that there are cases where better DPS makes for a less useful weapon. Generally, its when you aren't sustaining fire (which is pretty much always in this game).

Lets say you need to do 10 damage to kill something. You have one weapon that does 5 damage and a quarter second cooldown, and one weapon that does 10 but has a five second cooldown. Guess what? The weapon that does 10 damage is better (even though it does 2 DPS instead of 20). You'll kill the enemy with the first shot, and the recycle time is meaningless because you'll be spending that time finding cover or another target.

It's true that this applies much more readily to Diablo, but unless you're in an assault that isn't moving it applies here as well, because you won't be firing constantly, and thus recycle times are near meaningless. Sustained damage really only applies to assaults and some heavies. There's enough cover (and simple movement) that just about all other mechs will not ever be sustaining fire for more than maybe five seconds at a time.

DPS isn't always meaningless, but the raw damage, heat, and weight numbers are almost always more important.

(You made a good choice in naming yourself, by the way.)

[Hawks]

Leetskeet, on 18 November 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

High damage sustainable alphas are superior to dps in this game. You can have your fun with triple AC2's, but it's not going to save you from some laserboat or Gausscat.

Depends, I've seen gausscats get absolutely munched by AC2 cats.

[Hayashi]

There's damage per shot, there's damage per second and there's damage per second heat ton ammunition. The first determines how good you are at quick engagements - hit and run, sniping, etc - DPS is irrelevant unless you can maintain fire over a period of time. The second is the deciding factor if you can fire nonstop while the other guy can fire nonstop - that is, no use of cover, just circle strafing and exchanging fire. The third is the value for how weight/heat efficient your build is relative to damage per second values. Two medium pulse lasers are stronger than a large laser, even though the DPS of a large laser as well as its initial hit damage are higher.

You don't just have a single measure for damage output, and not using the current measure for the correct situation will lead to bad builds and bad game results.

Card, on 18 November 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

When weighing the merits of a particular weapon system, the only criteria that really matters to me is whether or not I can actually hit something with it. Unfortunately, I can't hit anybody with anything, so that doesn't narrow the field down all that much.

Streak SRM2 x4, LRM15 x2 Cat A-1 build should be best for your description.

[Sheriff x]

Vassago Rain, on 18 November 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

There are two schools of thought on this. Some like it when their attacks spit out sustainable damage (DPS). Some like having just the one second of firepower (burst).

And in terms of PvP (player versus player), many lean on burst being the most psychologically reeling / impacting - controlled burst, and coordinated at that, often times (in my opinion) is a lot more deadly, and effective, than sustained.

[Wispsy]

I find DPS is pretty important on a light mech where you have very few times you do not have a good shot to take. I shoot on cooldown an awful lot. The less DPS I have the less damage I do....the slower people die

[Sheriff x]

Wispsy, on 18 November 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:

I find DPS is pretty important on a light mech where you have very few times you do not have a good shot to take. I shoot on cooldown an awful lot. The less DPS I have the less damage I do....the slower people die

Also important.

[SUSTINET]

No sleep+ text walls and napkin math = headache. But I agree, DPS really isn't an important factor in this game, as aim, maneuvering, heat management, and plain old teamwork trump whatever DPS that could be achieved if you were just standing toe to toe swapping hits. Seeing as how we are not camped out on a raid boss, DPS is a fairly (not completely) moot point. It's about accuracy, consistency, and strategy. that's why I like this game,

[Josef Nader]

Don't you muddy the issue with yer fancy mathematics.

But yes, this is something I've been shouting into the wind about for ages. Yes, your two small lasers might have better DPS than my medium laser, but that's not the only factor. I can hit enemies from much farther out with my medium laser, and one medium laser generates less heat than two smalls. I'd rather have the range and heat savings than the extra DPS.

[Hayashi]

Expecting people not to use fancy mathematics on a thread based on mathematics is a little bit odd...

[Sheriff x]

Hayashi, on 20 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Expecting people not to use fancy mathematics on a thread based on mathematics is a little bit odd...

BLASPHEMY.

<3

[Pale Jackal]

I like using the AC2.

Why? Because it used to be absolutely useless. Now, its high DPS and rate of fire make it an interesting weapon to play with. Maybe once I get an XL 245, I'll be able to harass bigger 'mechs with an AC2 Raven.

Will the AC2 Raven be ultra-effective? Probably not, but it's different.

[Mu]

I frequently get people asking me why I don't use chain fire, and it's pretty much a result of mostly playing Catapults and Awesomes before their cockpit hitboxes were reduced (they are still pretty easy to hit, so imagine them being 4x larger if you never played back then). If I'm looking at the enemy, they can hit my CT or cockpit, which I don't want to happen. So I generally prefer builds with high burst and lower sustained damage.

An extreme example of this is an AC20 catapult. With my playstyle and very good ping (usually around 15) I am very very deadly in one. However, its sustained damage isn't that great - gaussapults are even worse and look how feared they are. It's all about being able to do lots of damage to a single section quickly while at the same time only making yourself vulnerable briefly. My faster mechs use a similar approach except they can find openings and fire much more often thanks to their maneuverability and speed. I pretty much only play 'bloody knuckles' on my brawler Atlas - even then, I use accurate weapons like artemis SRMs/arm lasers/gauss to focus fire a single section of the target.

[Jman5]

The importance is entirely dependent on your role and playstyle.

If you are the kind of player who finds himself brawling in sustained firefights, DPS is really king. Of course, you have to be honest here and include your DPS with regards to heatsink capability. It doesnt matter if you have high DPS if your heatsinks shut you down after 5 seconds.

If you are the kind of player who picks his shots, then burst damage is king. Players who run up to strike a backside, but then retreat back. Or players who carefully line up their shots from a distance and unloads a barrage of death. For these players, heat sink dissipation isnt as important because you spend so much time not shooting. However accuracy is important. You have to make your shots count.

I do a lot of hit and runs, so burst damage is much more important for my play style than DPS. Get in, Strike, Get out.

[Huntsman]

Burst damage is more valuable when you have the luxery of setting up shots. Either you're close in, but your buddies are closer and enemy attention is on them, or you're a sniper like a gausspult. In these spots you're not under pressure, or being thrown off by impact shake. You can take a moment to line up a shot and, your damage done, you can slide back into cover if you need to.

DPS is the tool of the brawler. It's for when your opponent can't really take cover against you, and you can just focus fire on him. At the same time though, the enemy is focusing on you. While your damage is less focused, there's also more of it, so one missed shot isn't a crisis, and you're throwing your foe way off with impact shaking if you're using small ACs.