33 replies to this topic

[Wil Scarlet]

I couldn't find anywhere else to put this but it absolutely MUST be addressed. I understand that every weight class should have a role and should feel effective in it's ability to contribute to the group. Because of the requirements of this game, both in equipment and internet connection there is a severe problem with light mechs. Never in any scenereo should a 25-30 ton light mech be able to solo a 100 ton mech. NOT EVER. There is an arguement to be made for a large group of lights taking down an assault but even then there should be a large loss of life on the part of the light mechs. It gets even worse in this game because not only are light mechs using the 'lag armor' effect but they are able to out turn all weight classes, including the class that's supposed to be able to hunt them and defend the heavier from them. The balance of the a Jenner vs a Hunchback is so far out of whack that it's to the point of not wanting to play. Streak Missles were supposed to be a counter for the 'lag effect' but now with the adjustment of streaks they flat out miss... they are spreading damage as was intended but if i fire 4 streaks i will almost always see at least 1 if not 2 missles completely miss target even on a straight on shot (not circling) Light Mechs should NOT ever ever ever want to get close to a heavy or assault and right now they are licking their chops when they see one. Please, do something to fix this very very very out of whack game balance issue.

[Cayote]

This post is right on the mark, especially in regard to the "lag armor" effect. Lights should not be this powerful against heavies and above.

[Wil Scarlet]

There is also an issue with space on the light mechs. Currently with the system the way it is, you run out of space before you run out of weight on an Assault or Heavy but you are able to easily fit Endo Steel, Ferro Fiberous and double heat sinks on a jenner without trouble and still have room for all your weapons. I would suggest that either the amount of space or hard points be reduced on light mechs. I can understand that light mechs are supposed to be able to use their agility to avoid fire but they should not be able to hit as hard as an Awesome while doing it.

[Vertrucio]

I've also expressed my opinion that lights are currently too effective at the direct combat role, even lights that aren't taking direct combat builds.

Other issues are that the developer made laser weapons do damage over time (requiring you to keep crosshairs on target), along with giving various ballistic weapons odd delays and slow travel time, and missiles getting nerfs to accuracy. Those aspects of the core gameplay all adds up to make lights survive a lot more based on just their speed of movement.

Now mind you, I actually am okay with the way the weapons work. But I do think the developers, in light of this, should reconsider just how much they want to make pure speed the main defensive benefit for lights, instead of good piloting, high acceleration (not just speed) and use of terrain.

Light pilots should also be penalized for poor piloting, it's not just knockdown either. If you slam into a building going at 120kph, something should happen. As it stands, even with knockdowns eventually going back in, light pilots are rewarded too much for poor piloting.

I'd actually argue for more low buildings, and low forests that are about the height of your average light. These would affect sensor readings, and provide more LoS blocking for lights. Lights could use things like jump jets for quick hops over and behind these.

The same goes for tweaking what terrain mechs can easily traverse. I've noticed that they actually have altered either mechs or maps to make heavier mechs have a hard time of climbing steep surfaces that don't look like they can be climbed.

With these changes to make lights more able to fill their roles, the developers can do more to lessen the direct combat effectiveness and survivability of lights, without reducing their survivability overall. It also makes them rely more on good piloting.

Edited by Vertrucio, 18 November 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[HeavyMessing88]

Luckily, this is a team game, and although one light usually beats one assault, two assaults absolutely murder 2 lights.

I also feel it has a lot more to do with pilot skill, load out and terrain than just the weight class. A medium skilled assault pilot with mainly ballistics, missiles and torso mounted weapons can’t hope to beat a medium skilled light on their own in the middle of an open area.

But a highly skilled assault pilot can put their back against a wall, torso twist to protect critical areas between shots, compensate for lag, take advantage on any patterns in the light pilot’s movements, and make use of arm mounted laser weapons (which both current assaults should always have), while they call in support.

I’ve spent enough time in Jenners, Cats and Atlases to know this matchup from all perspectives (have mastered all three mechs) and feel it is not too bad, even with my horrendous 250-300ms lag (I am in Australia). Also, I believe the devs want to balance the mechs so that one on one assault > heavy > medium > light > assault. If lights were nerfed to the extent that they couldn’t take on assaults (the one class against which their agility advantages should have the biggest impact) one on one, they would be all but useless in a combat role.

Also remember that once they fix the bugs and bring back collisions, lights will no longer be able stay right on your ***, simultaneously giving you much better opportunities to hit them and increasing the skill requirement for light pilot (as discussed in the post above).

Finally, with the upcoming introduction of 8v8 skill based matchmaking that is not weight class balanced, there needs to be a reason to take lights, mediums and heavies, because otherwise the game will quickly devolve into an assaults v assault slugfest like most of the other mechwarrior games. Although in the lore assaults may be the be all and end all of mech combat, this does not work in a game unless they introduce the associated disadvantages of increased cost and decreased availability (i.e. matches of 3 assaults vs 9 lights), however there are obvious reasons why they shouldn’t do this.

Alternatively, if they do decrease the combat effectiveness of lights (by decreasing their speed and agility), they will need to drastically increase the importance of scouting (e.g. bigger maps, a narc beacon that’s easier to use and more effective, and faster/more damaging LRMs). As it currently stands, a fast strike is much more useful to the team than a dedicated scout, and most light builds reflect this.

As a side note, I’m currently piloting a 4 large laser + 1 gauss Atlas-RS which vaporizes all but the most highly skilled lights with blue lines of death. My assessment of weight class balance is certainly biased due to my skill and build choice relative to the average light pilot’s, and I believe a real assessment of weight class balance can only be made once the stage 3 match making gets implemented, so that PGI can see which mechs are smashing faces in 8v8 non weight balanced matches.

******

tldr: Lights will be fine once they re-introduce collisions, but will need to be re-assessed once they increase the effectiveness of the scouting role and introduce stage 3 matchmaking.

[Vercinaigh]

Eh, i really do not feel big weapons and assaults should have nothing to fear from lights. Being someone who only pilots Heavy or above, and have never used or owned a light i have no issue with being CoD'd by a light, I should have to rely on my team to help me, otherwise what is the point of using anything other than my big Atlas? What penalty do I suffer? None, the very definition of OP.

Right now I have to fear lights on my own, in my drop groups I fear nothing, my mediums will assist me and together they implode quickly. this is a team game, not a one man show, A Assault should never one man show, It needs support to make the most of it. However lag shields are hella bad and so is the teleporting effect. Again I repeat do -NOT- make a Jenner be fearful of a Assault, as you will turn this game into 8 man drops of Atlas/Awesome winning -every- game against those who don't.

[Bartolomeo]

is fine.. just wait for net code and hit detection fix

[Cayote]

I completely agree that this is a team based game. And in that vein I would suggest that lights should be support, like LRM's, not able to one v one with a heavy. Sure...hit and run tactics in a light makes sense but not one on one with a big mech. Of course, this will all be moot once decent sensors and targeting come online along with some more advanced electronics.

[Wil Scarlet]

OK, i have to respond to this, I'm not sure if you're arrogant or just ignoring the core issue here. Obviously my post is meant to discuss balance of mechs, not balance of pilots. The assumption here is that the pilots are of equal skill, with equal CPU's with equal internet connections. I point out that these things are issues with light mechs because they are but in terms of balancing the mech the consideration has to be on the grounds that all things being equal. You are NOT all that i'm sorry HeavyMessing88, you benefit from a lag issue, and you may very well have good mates that help you but this game isn't all about guys like you and I that have been gaming far to many years and devoted to much time to online friends. It's to be there for the guy that is just being introduced to the MW universe and doesn't have TeamSpeak or some other voice program to help him/her get thru the game and enjoy it.

Secondly, while my post is aimed at the light vs assault there is a bigger issue. It's the light vs medium. Which shouldn't even be close if all things are equal, but as it stands with the current game mechanics medium mechs are getting ripped apart by light mechs. Now i can see the response already 'oh no it doesn't i rip up light mechs i never get beat' to which my response is then all things aren't equal. pilot skill, cpu, video card or internet connection is giving you an advantage of some sort (or giving the other guy a detriment) Medium mechs shouldn't be able to one shot kill a light no, but they should be an effective and deadly hunter of light mechs and at this point in almost every build they are not, regardless of pilot training (basic, advanced and elite) the twist/turn ratio as well as the lack of collision detection prevent the medium mech from fullfilling it's roll as a light mech hunter.

Finally let me respond to the upcoming 8v8 hopes... I see the very real possibility of people taking 8 light mechs and just base rushing every single map. in nearly every scenero the 'defending' team is at a disadvantage. if they leave all 8 at base to defend the lights never attack and both teams loose in a tie with noone actually fighting, if the attacking force sends 4 and uses 4 to defend then it's 8 v 4 at some point and the lights with lag armor, no collision and the natural ability to avoid shots because of speed have a severe advantage. if the 'defenders' take all 8 to attack the other base then the lights just go around and base cap... you can run numbers anyway you like but in every situation the lights take the field. Base Racing/capping isn't fun for anyone. I do hope that more varied and larger maps are introduced so that scouting has real value but as the game stands now the role of the light mech needs to be adjusted so that they are not front line combatants. Internal Space and hardpoints for a light mech need to be drastically reduced, NOT the speed or agility.

Edited by Wil Scarlet, 18 November 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[sycocys]

I must not have as much of a problem with the "lag armor" as some of you guys do, because in my med and heavy I can effectively track Jenners and Ciradas as long as I don't stop and try to play the shooting tree vs. the rabbit game.

Outside of the lights not taking damage for ramming into larger mechs and holding there, I absolutely don't see an issue with a light tearing up anything else on the field. If someone is going to put the time into making a solid build and learn the skills they earn the kills.

Something I do notice a lot of people doing though is trying to fight lights while staying stationary - please don't complain if that is your tactic and they circle to your back and shred your rear armor or (a new thing I've seen) low-armored legs. And as has been said - unless your up against a light pilot far beyond your skill, the numbers game will undoubtedly work in your favor.

[HeavyMessing88]

I agree with everything Vercinaigh, Bartolomeo, Cayote and sycocys have said, but in response to Wil Scarlet:

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

The assumption here is that the pilots are of equal skill...

Throughout my post I assumed that pilot skill was equal, just pointing out that the medium skill vs medium skill matchup is not the same as high skill vs high skill. The dev’s job is difficult because if they attempt to balance the game for low skill vs low skill encounters, they may destroy the balance at higher skill levels.

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

... you benefit from a lag issue ...

Because this game uses server authentication for most things with little to no lag compensation, people with higher pings have a harder time because everybody else's lag shield increases while their own depends only on the opponents ping. I don't benefit in any way because of my increased ping.

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

You are NOT all that i'm sorry HeavyMessing88, you benefit from a lag issue, and you may very well have good mates that help you but this game isn't all about guys like you and I that have been gaming far to many years and devoted to much time to online friends. It's to be there for the guy that is just being introduced to the MW universe and doesn't have TeamSpeak or some other voice program to help him/her get thru the game and enjoy it.

Although I mostly play with 2 or 3 others guys on teamspeak, when I do pug as an assault I always stick next to at least one other mech and can mash out a quick call for help in text chat when I need to. I suggest most new players do so as well.

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

as it stands with the current game mechanics medium mechs are getting ripped apart by light mechs. Now i can see the response already 'oh no it doesn't i rip up light mechs i never get beat' to which my response is then all things aren't equal. pilot skill, cpu, video card or internet connection is giving you an advantage of some sort (or giving the other guy a detriment)

I don’t have much experience with medium mechs, so I avoided commenting on the match-up, and tried to focus on situations with which I have a bit of experience, i.e. medium/high vs medium/high skill and lights vs assaults. Also, I fully acknowledged that my view point was biased in my second last paragraph, and agree that “I can kill X, therefore X is not op” is not a valid argument.

That’s why I emphasize the fact that individual players cannot make a holistic assessment of balance (only PGI, with full access to win/loss data can), and can only relate their personal experience (which is what I did), be that low skill pug matches or high skill unit vs unit matches. I also acknowledged the fact that highly skilled light pilots will beat me in assaults, and believe that this is only fair.

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I see the very real possibility of people taking 8 light mechs and just base rushing every single map. in nearly every scenero the 'defending' team is at a disadvantage.

Although this may be a “possibility”, we can’t really know until PGI removes weight class matching. Until then this is all just theory fighting, without even anecdotal evidence to support any claims. Once phase 3 gets implemented, PGI will make balance and game mode adjustments accordingly.

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

I do hope that more varied and larger maps are introduced so that scouting has real value but as the game stands now the role of the light mech needs to be adjusted so that they are not front line combatants.

It seems here that you agree that scouting currently has no real value, but still insist that lights’ front line combat capability be removed (correct me if I’m wrong). What then would be the purpose of a light mech? Changes to light mechs’ combat ability and scouting role should be made together, not one before the other. I made it very clear in my third last paragraph that it is ok to reduce light mech combat ability, but this should only happen together with increases to their scouting effectiveness.

Wil Scarlet, on 18 November 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Internal Space and hardpoints for a light mech need to be drastically reduced NOT the speed or agility.

My understanding is that the interaction between internal space and weight is one of the major balancing factors in MechWarrior. Light mechs are restricted by weight, while heavy mechs are restriced by space. Changing the number of crit slots/hardpoints would not only ruin this fundaments aspect of mech design, but also make certain canon mech builds impossible (which PGI should avoid if at all possible). It seems to me that speed and agility (which is what results in lag shield) is what people are complaining about, and thus should be the focus of any balancing (barring any possible improvement to net code/hit detection).

Overal, it seems that your dissatisfaction with the current state of light mechs stems from your belief that they should be less effective in direct combat against every other class of mech, and relegated to a support role. In fact, you state that “Never in any scenereo should a 25-30 ton light mech be able to solo a 100 ton mech. NOT EVER.”, while also believing that “Medium mechs shouldn't be able to one shot kill a light no, but they should be an effective and deadly hunter of light mechs“. However I would argue that until they actually become effective in a support role (which is something we both want) light mechs need to retain their combat ability.

[Gif]

The issue at hand here is Balance, and I have to agree some of the Balancing seems a bit off right now.

The problem however is with any balancing act, you have to tread carefully as to what gets changed, changing to many things at once makes it hard to pin point the issue.

As I see it, there are two main issues right now:
1) Game/Physic Mechanics
2) Loadout/Weapon Balancing Issues

First thing is first, the Game/Physics of the Piloting and Hit tracking still needs to be addressed. Along with some collision, too many lights are clipping through other mechs changing their hit boxes making half my shots miss, or worse hit friendlies. This is part has been discussed, I just want to separate the issues. Would also consider this top priority to fix. After this is addressed we as a community can gauge how effective lights are at brawling. Cause that is really the issue at hand here. I think and correct me if I'm wrong Will, but Will is saying too, Light mechs are Brawling way to long with out dying. I've been in many games in Forest Coloney where I've seen two Jenners circle around a group of 3-4 Mediums,Heavy (maybe one Assault), and survive for way longer than even two Atlas' could vs a group of 4 mechs.

This of course is caused by a number of potential issues, missles are not as effective as they used to be, lag, collision, etc. The point is however, lights are not afraid to be aggressive vs numbers that should be utterly scary otherwise. I know in an Atlas, with four times the firepower, Im still afraid of any more then 2 mechs (any size). Jenners dont care one bit.

Second Issue is a weapon balancing act, like Wil mentioned, in an Atlas, I have 100 tones to use to build my mech, and sure most of that goes to large weapons, making me a slow moving weapons platform, but why do I have just as many slots to play with than that of a Jenner a a 35 ton mech? Would it not make sense I could carry not only more (space), and heavier stuff? Heatsinks, Ammo, etc. Jenners get all upgrades they want, and suffer no real side effects, except c-bills for repair. I have to completely agree on the point of slots per mech, it just does not make sense to me that a light mech has the same amount of slots as a heavy/assault class would.

Last issue is of course weapon balance, I'm not going to get into this, as I'm fairly happy where things are, maybe a little more consistent hits on missles would be nice though. S-SRMs are missing all together now, and LRMs, well they're cool looking but miss a lot.

I'm sure PGI has statistics on this, aka, how much Damage a Light Mech is doing in a game on Avg vs ANY OTHER, and I betchya it's way closer, if not better then Medium/Heavy Mechs. And really with out those kind of stats, it's hard to say what is or is not happening overall, and whether it fits with PGI's design. Which is really what we're discussing here, and I wish I knew.

[ToBe998]

I allways thought the "role" of lights was first to scout and get information for the team and only second to kill enemies through speed. Atm, scouting is nearly useless. So, yes definetly make lights hit less hard and get hit more but ALSO fix their supposed scout role. Make scouting an important thing in the game. Let scouts get more info on enemies and maybe even faster. Make their locks remain longer so their LRM friends can use it. Maybe even make objectives and missions that need you to have a light.

[Skylen]

A Jenner standing still VS a Atlas standing still who would win?? of course an atlas
A full health jenner @139km circling a full health altas who would win?? MAYBE the Jenner but after AT LEAST 5 minutes of trying to get through the Atlas's armor with no DISTRACTION from other enemies.
In that time an atlas can 1.call for help 2. find a wall to back it self up against 3. retreat to friendly forces 4. get at least some shots on the jenner enough to take one down

remember an atlas only needs a few good shots on a jenner and its down. REALISTICALLY lights don't take down assaults on there own, they only soften them up. Cause the amount of time it takes for a light mechs weak weapons to get through an assaults armor, the assault will of received help by friendlies or take the light down himself.

i dont know what you morons are talking about suggesting to make lights hit less?
they already have the weakest loud outs in the game
why would you need to make small lasers, srm 2's and med lasers weaker. makes no sense
maybe we should increase assaults engine speed so they can catch up with lights too.

the only defense lights have against other mechs is speed. thats it. they have light armor and weak weapons. you take away that then assaults become OP. right now this is a speculation wait till collision comes back into play and they finally fix the net code, trust me itll be alot more balanced then.. if they ever get around to it.

Edited by Skylen, 19 November 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[Panzerjotun]

Part of the problem is this is a twitchy game and many people coming from tank and spank MMOs are terrible at it. I have no problem with being circled and blasted by a million paper cuts. That is why you have to play as a team to defend against that type of game play. The biggest thing over powering light mechs is lack of collision. When you can run 148kph right into a 100 ton Atlas and nothing happens there is something wrong. There has to be a damaging consequence for bad or erratic piloting. There has to be a consequence for playing football with assault mechs in your Jenner.

Edited by General Pace, 19 November 2012 - 08:28 AM.

[Stickjock]

Well, wait for improvements to netcode and for knockdowns to be re-intro'd to the game... then you'll see a lot of "bad" light pilots who think they can go toe-to-toe with assaults being torn to pieces...

[JabbaMitHut]

Although frowned upon, i still use WoT as an example here, because it had the same problem during closed beta with fast light and medium tanks which were teleporting all over the place. But eventually the 'netcode' got fixed and it all balanced out, so just give them a little more time and it will happen here too.

On the other hand, if you think that a 4 Million C-Bills Jenner should be able to perfectly go one on one with a 11 Million Atlas, then i think your understanding of balance is a little flawed.

[ICEFANG13]

Talk about nerfs to lights is completely premature with the bigger problems to collision and this netcode (which I never have a problem with, if anything I lead my targets).

As Skylen said, yes the only think lights have going for them is speed. I mean, to tell you the truth, I'm scared of AC/20 and Gausses more then anything else. I will take some damage to a laser when I fight one, but if the player is good, with a heavy ballistic weapon (which carrying 1 gauss for an Atlas isn't that hard to do, its still a good weapon), they can one shot me, when I'm moving full speed. I know I'm playing risky to fight something like that, but I often have to, at least get their attention for my teammates.

It takes very little skill to run in circles around someone, but its also easy to beat, its the lights that spend time matching speed, moving in your blind spot, that's harder, and you can eliminate it with teamwork, and placement. I mean seriously, there are so few heavies and assaults who back into a wall to beat me. All they need is someone on their tail, and its hard to beat them.

Lights should absolutely control the pace of the game. That's what we do. There is an obvious amount to it with the base system (if we don't have a light, and they do, we have to think very carefully what we do), (if we are in a defensive position, and there is an equal amount of lights, are our mediums close enough to get back if needed?). Enemy mechs in bad positions make themselves weak to lights, and if the team is in a strong position, its harder for the lights to do anything. Light on light is also very important. Its a lot like chess, how can I remove this piece without losing my own? The base is the king, and you want to checkmate or blackout the enemy. If you can eliminate the weight class of a team (say 2 lights), they are far weaker for it then losing 2 of a different type. People think of this game a little too onesided. Lights can't kill anything with a brain except if they are by themselves in a bad situation (either put there by themselves or because the lights did their job and pulled them there), or if the target is a light. People really have to consider positioning more, and be aware that 2 mechs will beat 2 lights, and it gets worse and worse the bigger that is.

[SmithMPBT]

Stickjocks right. Once lagshields completely gone, knockdowns are back and falls give ya plenty of time to Alpha Strike the light, things will be better. I still cringe when I see that Jenny start circling my Awesome though.

[pjnt]

I have no problem taking down a light in a heavy. It's piloting skill and situational awareness. If you are in an atlas, out in the open on your own, then the jenner will win - because you put yourself in that horrible situation. If your an atlas and stick in a group, the jenner is dead. If you are near cover, put your back to a wall and the jenner is dead. I have found on the whole the mechs seem to be well balanced. All bugs and netcode problems aside.

If you have issues with lights, play them and learn how they run. Then you'll quickly learn from good assault pilots how they kill you and you'll know next time what to do.