66 replies to this topic

[Tharkan Stuermer]

Actually, I think the current system is quite well balanced. I do not see any reason to change it.

[ParasiteX]

No!..... Dont touch the crit points ferro uses. As that's a fundamental balance difference between Clan and IS tech.
Plus, IS eventually comes up with a cheaper, less bulkier, and slightly heavier variant of ferro called Light FF, to counter the clans lower crit usage advantage.
And then there's Heavy FF. That adds even more armor per ton, but much much bulkier than standard FF

As already stated, FF main advantage over Endo is cost. But right now with repair and rearm removed, this is quite pointless.. But we can probably expect repair and rearm to return in the future, once PGI has better tweaked the economy balance.

[Zyllos]

Tharkan Stuermer, on 09 January 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

Actually, I think the current system is quite well balanced. I do not see any reason to change it.

So your telling me that you would equip FF over ES on your IS mech?

[Fut]

Protection, on 20 November 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

If for some reason you do not yet understand why Endo Steel is 100% superior to Ferro Fibrous, scroll down to the quote below for an explanation.

Is it really fair to say it's better 100% of the time?

I wanted more armor on my Mech, but I had reached the limit on armor (328/328), adding Endo Steel would drop my weight, but I wouldn't be able to use that for more armor due to already being at the limit. So I went with FF Armor, as it's supposed to make each tonne of my armor worth 1.2 tonnes of armor. So now my mech is slightly more armored than it was before. Mission accomplished.

Don't get me wrong though, I agree that in most cases it's better to take Endo, but FF has it's place.

Edited by Fut, 09 January 2013 - 09:25 AM.

[Superchibisan]

I am new to this game and I made the mistake of going ferro before endo. I now am too heavy with artemis, to go back to regular armour. How do I get to endo without costing myself an arm and a leg?

[Fut]

Thontor, on 09 January 2013 - 09:31 AM, said:

Ferro fibrous currently does NOT increase the maximum amount of armor you can put on your mech.

If you were 328/328 with standard armor, you were 328/328 with Ferro fibrous after you upgraded. All you did was free up about 1.1 tons. And you would free up more tonnage with Endo steel.

Ferro fibrous is only worth it if you already have Endo steel, and the critical slots to spare.

Ugh... Seriously?
I assumed (yeah, I know.. assumptions are bad) that it just added the extra armor "behind the scenes".
So the 328/328 wouldn't increase but each point of that 328 would offer slightly better protection.
That's how the write-up for this ***** reads: "Provides 12% more protection per ton compared to Standard Armor."
It doesn't say that it lowers the weight.
It should be that FF makes 1 tonne of armor as strong as 1.12 tonnes or armor.

Well this is super annoying, but thanks for the correction!!
Guess I'm going to have to waste a shittonne of C-Bux going back to Standard Armor, then to ES.. LAME.

Soooo.... Is there ever going to be an upgrade that works the way I thought FF worked?
By that I mean an upgrade that makes your armor better, not just lighter?

Because as it is now if you're maxed out on armor, like I am, there's absolutely nothing I can do to increase my protection. Both ES and FF are pointless - sure they'll lower the weight of my mech, but there's nothing I can do with the saved weight now.

Edited by Fut, 09 January 2013 - 10:31 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

Any thought to having FF add more armor points is simply ludicrous crazy. You want to get more of the one thing that the enemy has to get through to take your ride out?

And you don't think that if I think, for even a second, that the enemy has more Armor due to a possible FF upgrade, I wouldn't ALWAYS have FF on all my Mechs? Just in case.

That would be the same as saying, let's improve the ERPPC. Leave the Heat as is (furnace hot) but it will now deal 65% more damage. How long before every Mech that can mount an Energy Weapon wouldn't have as many as they could handle. Heat be dammed...

Added armor simply makes it a MUST have. A must have is BAD karma for a game like this.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 09 January 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Reduce it to 6 or 8 slots.

[Fut]

MaddMaxx, on 09 January 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Any thought to having FF add more armor points is simply ludicrous crazy. You want to get more of the one thing that the enemy has to get through to take your ride out?

And you don't think that if I think, for even a second, that the enemy has more Armor due to a possible FF upgrade, I wouldn't ALWAYS have FF on all my Mechs? Just in case.

It's not as "ludicrous crazy" as you're making it out to be. Simply because that's exactly what the write-up claims the Armor Upgrade does - "Provides 12% more protection per tonne compared to Standard Armor". This implies that 1 tonne of FF Armor will protect better than 1 tonne of Standard Armor, 12 % better to be precise.

Of course, the argument could be made that it provides 12% better protection because it's lighter, allowing more armor to be piled on. But this falls short when you look at a Mech that's maxed out on armor already. Somebody who's Piloting a Mech with 300/300 Standard Armor should see an increase in protection if they choose to purchase the FF Armor Upgrade... should they not?

As it is now FF is pointless, they should change the name of it to Endo Steel Weight Reductions lvl2, because apparently that's all it is.

Now onto your "Must have" comment.
If having the most armor possible is such a game-changing must have for everybody, then you wouldn't see so many people fielding Mechs with less than maximum armor. As it is now you see people will less than maximum armor all the time, mainly because they're willing to sacrifice some plating in order to squeeze in more ammo, or more weapons or whatever else they want more than being a damage absorbing tank.

So basically, I disagree with everything you just said.

Oh, and by the way, your PPC comment is a pointless strawman, as your example has no negative effects at all (same heat, crit slots as normal, but with more damage.... Wait, that sounds like Clan Tech to me), where-as FF armor does - it takes up crit slots and makes the pilot choose between this special armor or other things.

Thontor, on 09 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

In addition to that, the game UI should make it clear EXACTLY how much tonnage will be saved by switching to Endo or Ferro... And change something in the wording so people like Fut (don't feel bad, you aren't the first person that has made that assumption) don't assume it gives more protection when it doesn't...

No worries. I don't feel bad about making this mistake. I feel duped by the fine people producing the Ferro Fibrous Armor. They told me that it would give me better protection, when in fact it's just the same **** but with a very slight reduction in weight.

Thinking that I should contact the Better Business Bureau on these guys.

Edited by Fut, 09 January 2013 - 11:08 AM.

[Zyllos]

MaddMaxx, on 09 January 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Any thought to having FF add more armor points is simply ludicrous crazy. You want to get more of the one thing that the enemy has to get through to take your ride out?

And you don't think that if I think, for even a second, that the enemy has more Armor due to a possible FF upgrade, I wouldn't ALWAYS have FF on all my Mechs? Just in case.

That would be the same as saying, let's improve the ERPPC. Leave the Heat as is (furnace hot) but it will now deal 65% more damage. How long before every Mech that can mount an Energy Weapon wouldn't have as many as they could handle. Heat be dammed...

Added armor simply makes it a MUST have. A must have is BAD karma for a game like this.

Thontor, on 09 January 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

The more I think about it the more I agree...

In fact I think the system is fine as is... Where Endo steel is just flat out better... But I think the chill costs should be changed to reflect that... Endo steel should be like 10 times as expensive as Ferro fibrous... Think about it, you are replacing the mechs skeleton!

And that applies to repairs as well, when(if) they are put back in...

It was just silly that Ferro fibrous cost SO much to repair... That was just a double whammy... Not only was it less effective, but it cost an arm and a leg to maintain...

In addition to that, the game UI should make it clear EXACTLY how much tonnage will be saved by switching to Endo or Ferro... And change something in the wording so people like Fut (don't feel bad, you aren't the first person that has made that assumption) don't assume it gives more protection when it doesn't...

ES is already a must include, if you have the slots. If FF allows more armor, then if you have 14 critical slots, you can use those 14 critical slots to either lose weight for more internal equipment or to gain 12% extra armor.

Having FF allow an extra 12% (which means it will weigh the same weight of standard armor for 12% more armor points) will actually give you a choice between 12% more armor or 50% weight of internal structure.

As stated above, ES is already a must-include if you have 14 critical slots. But giving 12% more armor points for the 14 critical slots would then allow there be a choice between ES and FF. Also, lots of Heavy/Assault mechs just can not equip FF or ES for IS mechs.

Do you think 12% more armor outweighs the 14 critical slots and 12% of maximum armor tonnage in weaponry/heatsinks?

[Zyllos]

The only way I would leave FF the way it is now, is if ES is only allowed on specific variants, those who already have them equipped in the TRO.

That would be a 100% fine implementation due to the rarity of ES needing orbital facilities, thus only specific variants that already have ES would work.

Then, you would see more variety between mechs, and FF would actually be used for the weight savings on mechs that have Standard internals. The rare mechs that have Endo-Steel installed would also have Ferro-Fiberous equipped.

[Protection]

Using cost to balance is lazy, stupid, and poor design. Gameplay should be balanced, not metagame.

[Fut]

Thontor, on 09 January 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

No they should not... Because the maximum armor is based on how many armor points can fit in each section, not how many tons of armor can fit on each section.

Its 12% more protection per TON... Not per point of armor.

At the risk of making myself sound like an imbecile, I'm going to have to blame my confusion on the wording used in the descriptions for FF Armor. They really ought to change it to simply read "this armor is lighter than standard armor".

Thank you for this explanation though. It's really helping me wrap my head around this garbage.

If you don't mind me asking a follow up question:
What determines the amount of "armor points" a mech can have, if it's not the weight of the armor itself?

[Fut]

Thontor, on 09 January 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

Ultimately its the max tonnage rating of the mech that determines how much armor it can carry.

All 50 ton mechs have the same max number of armor points, etc.

Thanks for responding.

It doesn't make sense to me in a realistic way (all 50 tonne mechs, regardless of anything/everything else can only have X amount of armor... That seems very arbitrary), but I suppose it's just one of those games mechanics that doesn't correlate directly to real life.

If it is a weight restriction, of sorts, people should be able to go balls-to-the-walls crazy with armor, but then only have enough weight left over for a small weapon. It'd allow for more customization of Mechs overall... But that's a conversation for another day and another thread.

Again, thanks for your help, Thontor.

[Tharkan Stuermer]

Zyllos, on 09 January 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

So your telling me that you would equip FF over ES on your IS mech?

No, I equip FF in addition to ES in my Mech. There is no use to buff light Mechs, which can use ES in addition to FF. I do not see any sense in the proposal. The only thing which might be changed is the cost of ES. It should be far more expensive to use an Endo-Steal sceleton. Basically, you've to re-construct the entire Mech, if you want to change your internal structure. Replacing the armor would be far easier.

[General Taskeen]

The OP's idea was passed around early before FF was even introduced into the game. Yeah, its just lightweight armor, but it doesn't hurt thinking outside the box for including it in a Mech game. All Mech Warrior games are apocryphal (non-canon) anyways even when they try to stay as close to "TT" as possible.

The Devs stated:

Quote

Q: Has there been any thoughts by you guys to help boost FF, to make it an upgrade, instead of a next step upgrade to ES? [Zyllos]
A: Yes we have, and they are ongoing. We have a few ideas, though a nice first step was removing the repair cost fromt he game [Garth]

So they might be taking the idea into consideration.

Technically, some Mechs already have an artificial (unstated) extra damage reduction. Mechs with missile bay doors have an extra 10% damage reduction on that spot, unless it was changed, but I remember it being added in closed beta or open beta.

Likewise something similar could be done with FF, while it would still be lightweight (allowing more points of armor per section), it could also give an extra 12% damage reduction. So if a Mech had max FF armor, it would have extra damage reduction applied as well. A Centurion has 338 maximum possible armor points, full FF would still list 338/338, as per Standard Armor, but artificially could have slight damage reduction (another example, SA 272/338 vs FF 272/338 + 12% Damage Reduction Per Armor Section).

Edited by General Taskeen, 09 January 2013 - 01:07 PM.

[MaddMaxx]

Fut, on 09 January 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

It's not as "ludicrous crazy" as you're making it out to be. Simply because that's exactly what the write-up claims the Armor Upgrade does - "Provides 12% more protection per tonne compared to Standard Armor". This implies that 1 tonne of FF Armor will protect better than 1 tonne of Standard Armor, 12 % better to be precise.

Of course, the argument could be made that it provides 12% better protection because it's lighter, allowing more armor to be piled on. But this falls short when you look at a Mech that's maxed out on armor already. Somebody who's Piloting a Mech with 300/300 Standard Armor should see an increase in protection if they choose to purchase the FF Armor Upgrade... should they not?

As it is now FF is pointless, they should change the name of it to Endo Steel Weight Reductions lvl2, because apparently that's all it is.

Now onto your "Must have" comment.
If having the most armor possible is such a game-changing must have for everybody, then you wouldn't see so many people fielding Mechs with less than maximum armor. As it is now you see people will less than maximum armor all the time, mainly because they're willing to sacrifice some plating in order to squeeze in more ammo, or more weapons or whatever else they want more than being a damage absorbing tank.

So basically, I disagree with everything you just said.

Oh, and by the way, your PPC comment is a pointless strawman, as your example has no negative effects at all (same heat, crit slots as normal, but with more damage.... Wait, that sounds like Clan Tech to me), where-as FF armor does - it takes up crit slots and makes the pilot choose between this special armor or other things.




No worries. I don't feel bad about making this mistake. I feel duped by the fine people producing the Ferro Fibrous Armor. They told me that it would give me better protection, when in fact it's just the same **** but with a very slight reduction in weight.

Thinking that I should contact the Better Business Bureau on these guys.

Quote

"The maximum amount of protection is not changed; merely the weight of armor required to achieve that level of protection."

The BBB called. Your assertion is incorrect. Please recheck your data.

[Nexus Omega]

I am all for making it so your mech gains a 12% Armour boost from FF,
But It is currently mandatory on Light mechs, and there are plenty of Medium and Heavy builds with the 14 free slots,

My fear is this would only serve to penalise Assault Mechs. (Though Laser Heavy Awesome's would benefit)
Though if FF gain me +12% Armour I would strip my Atlas down and find a way. (though with Artemis and DHS this may be difficult)

[Zyllos]

Yes, that is true Nexus. This will once again effect IS Assaults. But, there are IS Assaults that only wields a few weapons and uses the extra tonnage for an over sized engine or other equipment like jump jets.

[Kraven Kor]

Garth Erlam, on 08 January 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

Keep up the ideas, guys

Need more of our posts to print out, discuss in meetings, and then laugh maniacally about how we will never see it?