351 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

Jonas, on 01 May 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

The Balance comes in when you can do more damage at further ranges and less heat. I also assume to make energy weapons more cost effective damage wise you would have to add more heat sinks.

Like a Gauss, where you suffer there is tonnage. The things are massive. A veritable pro/con system to ensure no one weapon is the best in all cases. Even the revered Medium Laser has an initial problem of it's relative low range, despite it's damage and heat abilities.

[guardian wolf]

The thing I saw with them is Heat vs. Ammo dependency

With Lasers, you have an unlimited supply of ammo, but, massive amounts of heat that you must control. This is why why all of my mechs designed for forward recon\deep recon, and raider units, rely heavily on sound energy boats that will be able to continue firing. These mechs have stamina, and reduced firepower.

With Ballistic weapons, you get firepower, but you eventually run out of ammo. You also have less amounts of heat, so you can mount more weapons. I created a Templar with no heat so to speak, and it was a frontline attacker mech. The mechs that have a mix of Ballistics, and Energy would be perfect for getting your assault ready for the front lines. The problem is, that, especially on Ballistic boats, once your out of ammo, you're kinda ******.

So, more firepower, or more stamina?

[Ursus_Spiritus]

There will always be a balance issue in Batteltech, no matter the iteration simply because of the pro/cons of ene vs ammo based weapons.

Heat vs Weight
Cost vs need/use
Damage vs Range

Reliability of ammo vs non ammo?

Player preference -
Mech limitations for space/critical slots.
Mission requirements.

Yes ballistics tend to hit harder, but more vulnerable to crits (mg ammo anyone?)

Personally I try to fit my load out if I can based on the mission.
Extended campaign vs Quick strike
Escort vs Patrol
Hunting mission vs defense

All are factors in the equation, so that complicates the variables considerably.

I think more so it will come down to player style/preference and Devs can't take that in to account because of the diversty of player base.

There will be cries of X weapon is OP, or Z weapon isn't strong enough.

Frankly it is up to Y to learn how to use X and Z or not use either.

Learn your mech's abilities first, then your terrain, then worry about the weapons. So I am inclined to think, I could be wrong.

Othen then the obvious of energy weapons on a open range map with a high ambient temp generally isn't a good thing.

That is just one specfic example. Unlike some other FPS/MMo games, the diversity of weapons in Battletech/Mech warrior I feel doesn't really give the chance for a "OP" weapon.

Though a med mech with a decent speed and lots of ER MEDS LSRs can do a lot of damange MUHAHAHA.
Then again with that specific model there is the "balance" that each weapon based on a roll, has a chance to hit a different location. So concentrated damage isn't guaranteed, less maybe the mech has a T-Com, still there are multpliers in play that affect that.

It just seems to me that there will be so many factors at play, that it would be difficult to stack the deck in favor of a specific weapons class/type.

There should be limitations though on the amount of one specific weapon class being on a single chassis.

Like loading an Assault with 15 LRM 5s.....
A light with 20MGs

However having a Naga with two Arrow IVs... mUHAHAHAHAH!
Anyone for a Med with 12 ER MEDs????? <cough Nova cough>

Just an example.

Personally I would lean toward energy, but I would be foolish to rely completely on them. I would advise the same to others.

I think that managing heat is a key element to being a pilot (and should always be ahered to, even with ballistic weapon), add in awareness of terrain, opponent, and capabilities of my mech.

Edited by 8100d 5p4tt3r, 01 May 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Orzorn]

William Petersen, on 01 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Second, where did they say weapons cannot be destroyed?

Community Q&A 6:

Quote

If your have a weapon mounted in arm and literally lost this arm in battle - do you lose this weapon permanently or it will be moved to inventory? If yes, what about torso-mounted weapons? –Lima Zulu

[DAVID] You will still own the weapon, and the weapon will still be equipped to your ’Mech’s arm, but you’ll have to repair it before it can be of any use.

[Ravn]

I'm in favor of ammo being funded by house. I think that would add an interesting dynamic.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 01 May 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Though a med mech with a decent speed and lots of ER MEDS LSRs can do a lot of damange MUHAHAHA.
Then again with that specific model there is the "balance" that each weapon based on a roll, has a chance to hit a different location. So concentrated damage isn't guaranteed, less maybe the mech has a T-Com, still there are multpliers in play that affect that.

I hope you realize MWO is going to be a real-time game, not Table Top. Weapons are going to hit in the general area where you aim them (with minor convergence issues keeping accuracy from being pin-point). So if you fire off your dozen medium lasers, you are not going to see one hitting the head, one the left arm, another two on the right leg, etc. However, with the DoT nature of lasers it will be common to see lasers slashed from one side to the other of fast-moving 'Mechs due to pilot error in trying to track the movement.

[Rejarial Galatan]

William Petersen, on 01 May 2012 - 12:45 AM, said:

Coolant *is* the faulty system to deal with heat.

If you can't manage your heat with your heat sinks, you're firing too fast.

Actually the problem lies in the fact that its the brutes who keep screaming: EEEWWW Coolant system! EVIL squish it! NO NO NO, not in this game! sheesh. Look. Lets face facts here Petersen. It is NOT the coolant that is the faulty system, the faulty system is making heat realistic and not giving us a way to manage other than slowing rate of fire. The problem with that logic is plain to those looking at it. Its a multifaceted issue.

1. There WILL be times when those who PREFER the energy boat for WHAT EVER reason, will be FORCED into continued and prolonged fire. NO amount of heat management at that point is useful when its a "I fire what I have till I explode and rob YOU of your kill or I kill you before I explode from YOUR incoming damage to me or my reactor melting." Having an emergency coolant dump system will save lives. IF you dont want to use it, then DONT.

2. There will BE NEW PLAYERS WITH ZERO, 0, NADA, ZILCH experience in the BT OR MW universe and will have 0 idea of just how dangerous heat is <IF its done the way no previous MW title has done and truly factors heat right> and they will either shut down and die to enemy fire or they will find the shut down over ride and blow themselves to bits and rage quit from MWO. I do not think your apt to see this happen, cuz I sure am not. having that emergency coolant dump system will KEEP new players in the game so they can learn heat management.

3. Assuming coolant dump capability is UNLIMITED. That is the true fault here, and I think everyone keeps thinking back to the last titles in the series where heat is just plain broken and coolant wasnt done correctly. The way I envision it is NOT the easy button system you and all the people who say DO NOT INCLUDE a coolant flush system seem to think it is. I see it like this: Your mech is carrying <i do NOT care your mechs size> between 2 and 3 seconds of flushable coolant and that is IT. I see it as a 'fire extinguisher" for emergencies ONLY. Make it like that, and people will quickly learn: Manage that heat better and use this WHEN it counts, like in a tactical retreat or when its a TRUE him or 'me" situation.

Clear it up?

oh guys, soo sorry, did NOT expect to wall of text yall.

[Ravn]

I doubt we will lose players because the heat system is too complicated to figure out. Shoot things, heat goes up. Stop shooting, heat goes down.

[Rejarial Galatan]

nerd rage is a potent thing, especially with the tendency now to lean right INTO the bloody easy button, make it too hard and they quit. hell look at World of Warcraft, at one point had NEARLY 13 MILLION, now? barely over 10 million. WHY? Cataclysm screwed the game over. easy button was taken away

[zkythen]

What about stealth?

I haven't been keeping up with the development of this game as well as I should be, but in every other MechWarrior game there was something to be said for staying out of sight. Personally I've always loved playing a Medium mech with ECM and IFF Jamming where available, then poking my head up and sniping people with weapons that are difficult to track back to their source, specifically medium sized autocannons. Most missiles and all energy weapons have a huge visual signature. This is a large drawback, especially in team games. If one of their guys is looking for a target when you fire that PPC or missile battery, there's a good chance he's going to put his sights right on you.

Even in close combat having a minimal trail is huge. Especially in urban night missions, something like a Shadow Cat with an LB-X (one of my personal favorites) can slaughter larger, slower mechs if it can stay hidden. Even experienced heavy and assault pilots can get frustrated when they are constantly hit from behind and don't even know what building to look around. Combine that with some Jump Jets, suddenly your opponent is spinning circles while you stand above him on a rooftop and either pound his RCT or systematically disarm and gimp him, leaving him to eject while you go to fight his teammates, depending on his configuration.

Yes I am one of those guys.

Anyway, I'd like to see ballistic weapons with no or minimal tracer rounds to give them one more stand against energy weapons. Heck I'd REALLY like to see a Gauss rifle without that ridiculous Quake II corkscrew trail, but with that being it's trademark I kind of doubt it.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Zkythen: ok, I gots an issue with ya. Why do you subscribe to one of the most tactically STUPID moves? You would RIDGELINE yourself to try for a kill? Dont follow me? Allow me to show ya: Ridgelining is a practice in which you take the easy path along a ridge and give away your silhouette and make yourself like a fish in a barrel. This applies to both offensive and defensive tactics, where your best bet is to take the hardest path you can find to keep your cover until you MUST break it to fire in offense or bolt like hell in defense. Look, I am all for gimping the snot outta faster mechs or w/e but, putting yourself on a roof is bad form. Not only can that nice mech of yours CRUSH the building, your saying: SHOOT HERE! I HAVE NO ROOM TO RUN!

[Ravn]

zkythen, on 01 May 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

What about stealth?

I haven't been keeping up with the development of this game as well as I should be, but in every other MechWarrior game there was something to be said for staying out of sight. Personally I've always loved playing a Medium mech with ECM and IFF Jamming where available, then poking my head up and sniping people with weapons that are difficult to track back to their source, specifically medium sized autocannons. Most missiles and all energy weapons have a huge visual signature. This is a large drawback, especially in team games. If one of their guys is looking for a target when you fire that PPC or missile battery, there's a good chance he's going to put his sights right on you.

Even in close combat having a minimal trail is huge. Especially in urban night missions, something like a Shadow Cat with an LB-X (one of my personal favorites) can slaughter larger, slower mechs if it can stay hidden. Even experienced heavy and assault pilots can get frustrated when they are constantly hit from behind and don't even know what building to look around. Combine that with some Jump Jets, suddenly your opponent is spinning circles while you stand above him on a rooftop and either pound his RCT or systematically disarm and gimp him, leaving him to eject while you go to fight his teammates, depending on his configuration.

Yes I am one of those guys.

Anyway, I'd like to see ballistic weapons with no or minimal tracer rounds to give them one more stand against energy weapons. Heck I'd REALLY like to see a Gauss rifle without that ridiculous Quake II corkscrew trail, but with that being it's trademark I kind of doubt it.

Everything you just said there had nothing to do with
The economics of energy vs ammo driven weapons

[Rejarial Galatan]

<sends a supply ship full of Ravn's choice of beer to Ravn> Mans got a point

[zkythen]

Yes of course I don't do this in every situation, but there are several times when having a stealthy player or two can make or break a match.

For one, I would NEVER ridgeline myself. Of course I would not silhouette myself against the sky. This is only done on very hilly maps or ones with trees/rocks/ruins to blend into. This also only works if your camouflage blends in well enough.

Second, I am not necessarily lining myself up for a kill. I'm not that interested in getting kills, I'm interested in my team winning. Getting hit from the side or rear is distracting at least and disabling at best. Also if we are going to see objective based game modes, best case scenario I don't even have to engage another player before getting what I want.

Third... Okay yes, building hopping is lame and unrealistic. But it sure as heck surprises people the first time you do it. This technique would only work if the game was broken. So you've got me there. It's fun though! On the other hand, being on a building in an urban environment actually means you have MORE directions to run than anyone else, because you can dismount from the building in any direction. As long as only one enemy can see you it's all dandy.

And Fourth... Yeah okay, this isn't economics based really. It's just one more reason that I'm more apt to pay for ammo.

So let's move on to assault tactics. For example, in an 8v8 game right at the beginning five mechs from each side crest the hills into the inevitable killzone that almost every map has. You see three enemies fire lasers. You immediately know who they've decided to engage. If they're shooting at you, you're likely to shoot back. If one enemy shot you with lasers and one enemy shot you with an autocannon, there's a good chance you didn't even notice the AC tracers, especially if the laser hit was near the cockpit. You're still going to shoot the laser guy, unless you've already decided on another target. This of course will not have near the effect when groups of experienced pilots are fighting, but it still makes a difference.

[Rejarial Galatan]

Ok, on your LAST paragraph: I see enemy mechs heading at me, I KNOW they chose to engage. No need to WAIT for weapons fire to know it. moving backwards UP your post, getting above the fight in a mech on ANY hillside is bad unless its pitch black and your runnin lights out with a seriously dark paint scheme. Otherwise, find a good ol big hunk of tree or rock to stay behind and work the radar for your team

[Ravn]

zkythen, on 01 May 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Yes of course I don't do this in every situation, but there are several times when having a stealthy player or two can make or break a match.

For one, I would NEVER ridgeline myself. Of course I would not silhouette myself against the sky. This is only done on very hilly maps or ones with trees/rocks/ruins to blend into. This also only works if your camouflage blends in well enough.

Second, I am not necessarily lining myself up for a kill. I'm not that interested in getting kills, I'm interested in my team winning. Getting hit from the side or rear is distracting at least and disabling at best. Also if we are going to see objective based game modes, best case scenario I don't even have to engage another player before getting what I want.

Third... Okay yes, building hopping is lame and unrealistic. But it sure as heck surprises people the first time you do it. This technique would only work if the game was broken. So you've got me there. It's fun though! On the other hand, being on a building in an urban environment actually means you have MORE directions to run than anyone else, because you can dismount from the building in any direction. As long as only one enemy can see you it's all dandy.

And Fourth... Yeah okay, this isn't economics based really. It's just one more reason that I'm more apt to pay for ammo.

So let's move on to assault tactics. For example, in an 8v8 game right at the beginning five mechs from each side crest the hills into the inevitable killzone that almost every map has. You see three enemies fire lasers. You immediately know who they've decided to engage. If they're shooting at you, you're likely to shoot back. If one enemy shot you with lasers and one enemy shot you with an autocannon, there's a good chance you didn't even notice the AC tracers, especially if the laser hit was near the cockpit. You're still going to shoot the laser guy, unless you've already decided on another target. This of course will not have near the effect when groups of experienced pilots are fighting, but it still makes a difference.

You could just start your own thread.

[zkythen]

Reversing through your reply, we did see in Living Legends some pretty debris-filled maps. I'd really like to see some more of that. And of course I'm running lights out. This is stealthy tactics. As far as you knowing they've engaged and waiting for weapons fire, I already covered that it doesn't make as much difference against veteran opponents. But we all know that there will always be a large chunk of newb/rusty/distracted/sleepy pilots out there. And even if you are amazing, you don't always get the first shot off. If you take a pair of PPCs or missile barrage (not that you'll take that first unless you walked into it) there's a good chance you're loosing much of your visibility, and enemies with lower profiles will probably be lower on your priority list.

That brings up another point. Chain missiles are a great (and expensive) way to ruin an enemy's aim and visibility. If missiles are both expensive AND a large source of heat like they have been in some games, they will definitely become something that's even more rarely seen as a basis for a mech's configuration. In much of the fiction, missiles and rockets had no heat buildup because they fired from tubes, where the heat was simply blasted out the rear. If this had been the case in, say, Vengance, they would have been VERY OP.

[Ravn]

zkythen, on 01 May 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

Reversing through your reply, we did see in Living Legends some pretty debris-filled maps. I'd really like to see some more of that. And of course I'm running lights out. This is stealthy tactics. As far as you knowing they've engaged and waiting for weapons fire, I already covered that it doesn't make as much difference against veteran opponents. But we all know that there will always be a large chunk of newb/rusty/distracted/sleepy pilots out there. And even if you are amazing, you don't always get the first shot off. If you take a pair of PPCs or missile barrage (not that you'll take that first unless you walked into it) there's a good chance you're loosing much of your visibility, and enemies with lower profiles will probably be lower on your priority list.

That brings up another point. Chain missiles are a great (and expensive) way to ruin an enemy's aim and visibility. If missiles are both expensive AND a large source of heat like they have been in some games, they will definitely become something that's even more rarely seen as a basis for a mech's configuration. In much of the fiction, missiles and rockets had no heat buildup because they fired from tubes, where the heat was simply blasted out the rear. If this had been the case in, say, Vengance, they would have been VERY OP.

No no, by all means, take mine.

[Rejarial Galatan]

is it me or has this thread gotten onto some very very circular and curvy rails?

I will say this again: use what weapons YOU like, not what some other player likes. Make the build YOU want to see, and learn it inside and out and rock it until you break the guitar! everything, every build, weapon has its pros and cons, weigh them as you will, use what you will. and i will do the same.

[Ravn]

It has been a hijack fest to be sure, but I enjoyed most of it.