351 replies to this topic

[Rejarial Galatan]

makin me glad we can all get our fits over with now and enjoy the game when it comes!

[Ravn]

The whole forum has pent up "ammo" issues.

[Rejarial Galatan]

we need FORUM C.A.S.E. then XD

[Volthorne]

The amount of fail coming from zkythen is disturbing....

On topic: How does the comparison between energy and physical weapons create an economy? It doesn't.

Edited by Volthorne, 01 May 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Actually the problem lies in the fact that its the brutes who keep screaming: EEEWWW Coolant system! EVIL squish it! NO NO NO, not in this game! sheesh. Look. Lets face facts here Petersen. It is NOT the coolant that is the faulty system, the faulty system is making heat realistic and not giving us a way to manage other than slowing rate of fire. The problem with that logic is plain to those looking at it. Its a multifaceted issue.

1. There WILL be times when those who PREFER the energy boat for WHAT EVER reason, will be FORCED into continued and prolonged fire. NO amount of heat management at that point is useful when its a "I fire what I have till I explode and rob YOU of your kill or I kill you before I explode from YOUR incoming damage to me or my reactor melting." Having an emergency coolant dump system will save lives. IF you dont want to use it, then DONT.

2. There will BE NEW PLAYERS WITH ZERO, 0, NADA, ZILCH experience in the BT OR MW universe and will have 0 idea of just how dangerous heat is <IF its done the way no previous MW title has done and truly factors heat right> and they will either shut down and die to enemy fire or they will find the shut down over ride and blow themselves to bits and rage quit from MWO. I do not think your apt to see this happen, cuz I sure am not. having that emergency coolant dump system will KEEP new players in the game so they can learn heat management.

3. Assuming coolant dump capability is UNLIMITED. That is the true fault here, and I think everyone keeps thinking back to the last titles in the series where heat is just plain broken and coolant wasnt done correctly. The way I envision it is NOT the easy button system you and all the people who say DO NOT INCLUDE a coolant flush system seem to think it is. I see it like this: Your mech is carrying <i do NOT care your mechs size> between 2 and 3 seconds of flushable coolant and that is IT. I see it as a 'fire extinguisher" for emergencies ONLY. Make it like that, and people will quickly learn: Manage that heat better and use this WHEN it counts, like in a tactical retreat or when its a TRUE him or 'me" situation.

Clear it up?

oh guys, soo sorry, did NOT expect to wall of text yall.

1. I'm not against boating. Currently, there is no flush. If it stays that way, learn to use cover and shut down when BEHIND it.
2. As for the new people, set the bar high and right in front of them. I hold a game that is difficult to a higher value than one that gives me everything up front. If it is easy and uber from day one, I see no reason for a day 2 since victory is academic and I merely have to waste time to get it.
3. Past games are past games. This ain't one of them and this train will be leaving the station soon regardless of who is on it.

[zkythen]

Ravn, on 30 April 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

I hope ammunition driven weapons will be balanced with energy based weapons. If they are OP in the slightest, we are back to a Pay to Win situation since the Devs already said ammunition will be a major expense in upkeep... Actually, even if the weapons are balanced, energy weapons will need to have an intrinsic calibration and upkeep cost associated with them to keep the game from becoming entirely energy based. Why buy ammo when you can use a laser/PPC over and over for free.

>_> Wasn't the point of the thread to weigh the differences between ammunition- and energy-based weapons? I was illustrating a few ways in which ballistic weapons balance themselves against energy weapons. In any C.A.S.E., yes, they do need to work really hard on balancing these things. No argument here.

[Togg Bott]

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Actually the problem lies in the fact that its the brutes who keep screaming: EEEWWW Coolant system! EVIL squish it! NO NO NO, not in this game! sheesh. Look. Lets face facts here Petersen. It is NOT the coolant that is the faulty system, the faulty system is making heat realistic and not giving us a way to manage other than slowing rate of fire. The problem with that logic is plain to those looking at it. Its a multifaceted issue.

1. There WILL be times when those who PREFER the energy boat for WHAT EVER reason, will be FORCED into continued and prolonged fire. NO amount of heat management at that point is useful when its a "I fire what I have till I explode and rob YOU of your kill or I kill you before I explode from YOUR incoming damage to me or my reactor melting." Having an emergency coolant dump system will save lives. IF you dont want to use it, then DONT.

2. There will BE NEW PLAYERS WITH ZERO, 0, NADA, ZILCH experience in the BT OR MW universe and will have 0 idea of just how dangerous heat is <IF its done the way no previous MW title has done and truly factors heat right> and they will either shut down and die to enemy fire or they will find the shut down over ride and blow themselves to bits and rage quit from MWO. I do not think your apt to see this happen, cuz I sure am not. having that emergency coolant dump system will KEEP new players in the game so they can learn heat management.

3. Assuming coolant dump capability is UNLIMITED. That is the true fault here, and I think everyone keeps thinking back to the last titles in the series where heat is just plain broken and coolant wasnt done correctly. The way I envision it is NOT the easy button system you and all the people who say DO NOT INCLUDE a coolant flush system seem to think it is. I see it like this: Your mech is carrying <i do NOT care your mechs size> between 2 and 3 seconds of flushable coolant and that is IT. I see it as a 'fire extinguisher" for emergencies ONLY. Make it like that, and people will quickly learn: Manage that heat better and use this WHEN it counts, like in a tactical retreat or when its a TRUE him or 'me" situation.

Clear it up?

oh guys, soo sorry, did NOT expect to wall of text yall.

i see this as a simple extension of should Ammo dependent mech be allowed to re-supply in battle? if ammo doesnt get re-supply, why should heat be allowed to "DUMP". balance, thats what is needed, and before anyone lumps me into the "I wanna be a ac boat" , dont, i plan on taking a mix of weapons and make you wonder whats coming next.

EDIT* sorry, the main title of the post was "ECONOMICS" yeah, ammo is gonna cost, but i dont think i'll have a problem keeping my AC's loaded in addition to repairing my mech

Edited by Togg Bott, 01 May 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[zkythen]

Togg Bott, on 01 May 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

i see this as a simple extension of should Ammo dependent mech be allowed to re-supply in battle? if ammo doesnt get re-supply, why should heat be allowed to "DUMP". balance, thats what is needed, and before anyone lumps me into the "I wanna be a ac boat" , dont, i plan on taking a mix of weapons and make you wonder whats coming next.

EDIT* sorry, the main title of the post was "ECONOMICS" yeah, ammo is gonna cost, but i dont think i'll have a problem keeping my AC's loaded in addition to repairing my mech

Perhaps if MFB's (or whatever) re-supplied mechs in battle at a higher expense than your initial ammo reserves? This would make some sense, as ammunition in the field is more difficult and dangerous to deliver. Even if they are YOUR MFB's, you still have to pay for the cost of dropping/driving the ammo out to the battlefield.

[Togg Bott]

i have no problem paying for my ammo. thats simple and direct. they incure more risk bringing me ammo, i pay more for it, 2x 1.5x 3x hell i might even go 5x.

this from sarna. "Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans."

[William Petersen]

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

1. There WILL be times when those who PREFER the energy boat for WHAT EVER reason, will be FORCED into continued and prolonged fire. NO amount of heat management at that point is useful when its a "I fire what I have till I explode and rob YOU of your kill or I kill you before I explode from YOUR incoming damage to me or my reactor melting." Having an emergency coolant dump system will save lives. IF you dont want to use it, then DONT.

In general, I reject this idea of someone else 'forcing' you to do something, but for the sake of argument, let's allow it. Basically, what you're saying is you got out-played letting yourself get into this position and took too many energy weapons. Balance your weapons load and/or play better is the solution, not coolant.

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

2. There will BE NEW PLAYERS WITH ZERO, 0, NADA, ZILCH experience in the BT OR MW universe and will have 0 idea of just how dangerous heat is <IF its done the way no previous MW title has done and truly factors heat right> and they will either shut down and die to enemy fire or they will find the shut down over ride and blow themselves to bits and rage quit from MWO. I do not think your apt to see this happen, cuz I sure am not. having that emergency coolant dump system will KEEP new players in the game so they can learn heat management.

It's called a learning curve. Overheat. Shut down. Get killed. MW:O skill has increased by 1; manage heat better. Again, the solution isn't coolant, it's playing better.

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

3. Assuming coolant dump capability is UNLIMITED. That is the true fault here, and I think everyone keeps thinking back to the last titles in the series where heat is just plain broken and coolant wasnt done correctly. The way I envision it is NOT the easy button system you and all the people who say DO NOT INCLUDE a coolant flush system seem to think it is. I see it like this: Your mech is carrying <i do NOT care your mechs size> between 2 and 3 seconds of flushable coolant and that is IT. I see it as a 'fire extinguisher" for emergencies ONLY.

That's nice that's how you see it, but that's not how it actually is in the TT (I can't speak to 'canon' in the regard because I've not read a whole lot of the novels). The only 'coolant flush' is provided by coolant pods which may or may not be an option (not quite sure when the tech was available). And that still doesn't instantly set your heat down to 0, it simply increases the efficiency of your heat sinks (for 10 seconds).

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Make it like that, and people will quickly learn: Manage that heat better and use this WHEN it counts, like in a tactical retreat or when its a TRUE him or 'me" situation.

Or don't include coolant at all and people will learn quickly: build your Mech better, manage your heat, don't shut down, don't die.

[Steel Talon]

IRL only ammo with significant cost is guided one, so catapult will have higer upkeep than other mechs.
But with LRMs u usually get out of fight without damage to repair so income is "ballanced"
To balance energy, let them be more expensive to repair.

[Travers]

As long as you can seriously knock a target and keep them rocking, then I'm willing to pay for the ammo to do it. So long as I'm not a victim of the 'company store' policy

Couple of random points / thoughts.

Oh, for the PPC min distance peeps.
Particle Projector Cannons are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[1] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range. This is a little misleading as the description for the Awsome reads as follows:

The Awesome has a limited, but effective, armament consisting of three Kreuss PPCs giving it an immense amount of damage potential at ranges exceeding five hundred meters.

So if thats the case, then a regular PPC should have an 'optimal range zone' whereby it inflicts full damage (say between 500m and 600m), and ranges shorter than that, the field inhibitor kicks in and reduces the payload (the damage), at ranges longer, the energy surrounding the ion particles dissapate and again it does less damage. Damage drop off scales with the difference between current vs optimal range.
As for the Clan ER PPC, just make the inhibitor and weapon itself more efficient (hey it's the clans), so the damage drop off is much less significant or the optimal damage zone is bigger (say between 400m and 800m)
Gotta say that I'm no expert so feel free to disagree

ACs already have the issue of damage dropoff at range. All ACs are at the most damaging at point black, with damage dropoff accruing the longer the range (air friction vs weight of the round fired under the effects of gravity)

As the nrg weapons tradeoff vs ballistics, well. Just make heatsinks expensive, make double-heatsinks very expensive and make sure they can be targeted and destroyed. As for heat, make sure its effects are gradual on speed, turning rate, torso twist as the heat builds up., Perhaps add a heat shimmer effect to the cockpit that obscures vision or heat buildup negativley effecting electrical components / modules and weapons to the point that they must be repaired or replaced after a match if they've been subjected to a lot of heat over a long period of time.

In summary, there should be a financial penalty for running a hot mech, and wear and tear to components / weapons / modules seems to be the way to do that. That would help to balance the books between nrg and ballastic ammo costs.

Edited by Travers, 02 May 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Steel Talon]

AC/10,20 using HEAT shells, no damage dropoff, only trajectory
same for all missiles

[guardian wolf]

8100d 5p4tt3r, on 01 May 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

There will always be a balance issue in Batteltech, no matter the iteration simply because of the pro/cons of ene vs ammo based weapons.

Heat vs Weight
Cost vs need/use
Damage vs Range

Reliability of ammo vs non ammo?

Player preference -
Mech limitations for space/critical slots.
Mission requirements.

Yes ballistics tend to hit harder, but more vulnerable to crits (mg ammo anyone?)

Personally I try to fit my load out if I can based on the mission.
Extended campaign vs Quick strike
Escort vs Patrol
Hunting mission vs defense

All are factors in the equation, so that complicates the variables considerably.

I think more so it will come down to player style/preference and Devs can't take that in to account because of the diversty of player base.

There will be cries of X weapon is OP, or Z weapon isn't strong enough.

Frankly it is up to Y to learn how to use X and Z or not use either.

Learn your mech's abilities first, then your terrain, then worry about the weapons. So I am inclined to think, I could be wrong.

Othen then the obvious of energy weapons on a open range map with a high ambient temp generally isn't a good thing.

That is just one specfic example. Unlike some other FPS/MMo games, the diversity of weapons in Battletech/Mech warrior I feel doesn't really give the chance for a "OP" weapon.

Though a med mech with a decent speed and lots of ER MEDS LSRs can do a lot of damange MUHAHAHA.
Then again with that specific model there is the "balance" that each weapon based on a roll, has a chance to hit a different location. So concentrated damage isn't guaranteed, less maybe the mech has a T-Com, still there are multpliers in play that affect that.

It just seems to me that there will be so many factors at play, that it would be difficult to stack the deck in favor of a specific weapons class/type.

There should be limitations though on the amount of one specific weapon class being on a single chassis.

Like loading an Assault with 15 LRM 5s.....
A light with 20MGs

However having a Naga with two Arrow IVs... mUHAHAHAHAH!
Anyone for a Med with 12 ER MEDs????? <cough Nova cough>

Just an example.

Personally I would lean toward energy, but I would be foolish to rely completely on them. I would advise the same to others.

I think that managing heat is a key element to being a pilot (and should always be ahered to, even with ballistic weapon), add in awareness of terrain, opponent, and capabilities of my mech.

Thank you for basically getting this on the head.

Rejarial Galatan, on 01 May 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Actually the problem lies in the fact that its the brutes who keep screaming: EEEWWW Coolant system! EVIL squish it! NO NO NO, not in this game! sheesh. Look. Lets face facts here Petersen. It is NOT the coolant that is the faulty system, the faulty system is making heat realistic and not giving us a way to manage other than slowing rate of fire. The problem with that logic is plain to those looking at it. Its a multifaceted issue.

1. There WILL be times when those who PREFER the energy boat for WHAT EVER reason, will be FORCED into continued and prolonged fire. NO amount of heat management at that point is useful when its a "I fire what I have till I explode and rob YOU of your kill or I kill you before I explode from YOUR incoming damage to me or my reactor melting." Having an emergency coolant dump system will save lives. IF you dont want to use it, then DONT.

2. There will BE NEW PLAYERS WITH ZERO, 0, NADA, ZILCH experience in the BT OR MW universe and will have 0 idea of just how dangerous heat is <IF its done the way no previous MW title has done and truly factors heat right> and they will either shut down and die to enemy fire or they will find the shut down over ride and blow themselves to bits and rage quit from MWO. I do not think your apt to see this happen, cuz I sure am not. having that emergency coolant dump system will KEEP new players in the game so they can learn heat management.

3. Assuming coolant dump capability is UNLIMITED. That is the true fault here, and I think everyone keeps thinking back to the last titles in the series where heat is just plain broken and coolant wasnt done correctly. The way I envision it is NOT the easy button system you and all the people who say DO NOT INCLUDE a coolant flush system seem to think it is. I see it like this: Your mech is carrying <i do NOT care your mechs size> between 2 and 3 seconds of flushable coolant and that is IT. I see it as a 'fire extinguisher" for emergencies ONLY. Make it like that, and people will quickly learn: Manage that heat better and use this WHEN it counts, like in a tactical retreat or when its a TRUE him or 'me" situation.

Clear it up?

oh guys, soo sorry, did NOT expect to wall of text yall.

Please no coolant flush, without any draw backs. Seriously, putting it realistically, it might give you a temporary edge, but, afterwards, you are going to have major heat problems without tonnage devoted to coolant tanks.

[MaddMaxx]

As to this point in particular:

Quote

"having that emergency coolant dump system will KEEP new players in the game so they can learn heat management."

With a Coolant Dump system in the game, there is NO need to learn how to "manage" ones heat. They just rely on the "F" key like they did in previous games with an "F" key....

[Wyzak]

I am up for removing coolant flush. It was never mentioned in the fiction at all, so I have to assume it was added to make MW3 and MW4 easier for players new to the Battletech universe. The main problem is that you can fire weapons faster then you can in-universe*, hence by using correct heat tables, you can build up a critical level of heat faster than you can in-universe. Of course, in-universe you can also build up heat by moving over a certain speed, using jump jets, etc.

*It is not really established in the fiction if the weapons can not fire as fast as in the games, or if the skilled pilots the authors write about simply know not to fire them more then once every thirty seconds.

[EDMW CSN]

Make it simple.
If you want coolant flush ?
Use the experimental coolant pods. They weight a ton, take 1 crit and explode if hit.
When "flushed" they do not make your heat magically go away, but your heatsinks will work better for the next 10 seconds.
DHS will dissipate 3 heat and single HS will dissipate 2 heat over the duration.

Also it is in my opinion that ammo weapons deserve to easily have double or even triple the DPS of their energy equal.

Presuming the AC-20 reloads in 3.5 seconds.

AC2 = 1.2 second reload = 1.667 dps
AC5 = 2 second reload = 2.5 dps
AC10 = 3 second reload = 3.333 dps
AC20 = 3.5 second reload = 5.714 dps
Gauss rifle = 5 second reload = 3 dps

PPC = 6 second reload = 1.667 dps

Yes tied to the AC-2 for DPS, but the PPC's strong points are high alpha, good med long range and no ammo consumption. Because in the long run of things, no matter how cheap AC2 or AC5 ammo is, people are going to exceed the cost of the PPC eventually.

Edited by [EDMW]CSN, 02 May 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Shootanoob]

I guess, the idea of different loading cycles sounds reasonable to me, but I'd like to maybe combine that with a good heat management system. Why? Because in my world, Battletech is a good part about managing heat. There are just few Mechs which perfectly deal with heat if you keep them a) moving and firing broadside after broadside like an ancient ship of the line - and if they're capable to do so without significant heat buildup, they only are because of them mounting ammo weapons, mostly ACs.

Heat should be punishing and limiting - and lasting for more than just 2-3 seconds, a reasonable heat build-up in your Mech should hamper your ability to fight at your best for at least 20-30 seconds (which are ages on a battlefield, as you all know) - decreased turning of your torso, slower reaction on your targeting, flickering/blurred HUD, maybe some steam in the cockpit, reduced movement rate and yes, no system to magic that all away by waving some sort of a magic wand.

Energy Weapons mounted on a Mech are very seldom thought to be fired all at once in an Alpha - most designs give that hint to the pilot by having a broad variety of different energie weapons (which have then different ranges and are therefore meant to be fired in special situations).

Yes, you certainly can fire your Large Laser in close combat, and yes, it might do more damage than your med - but then you suddenly recognize that you have 2 Meds and them together do more damage than your Large and now you have a problem:
you could fire

a) no weapon, what is usually only a choice when you have no clear vision on the target or have to significantly cool down your Mech
one Med, what is only sligthly different from a) but with a litte better damage output
c) the Large, what improves the situation against the single med from a damage perspective but also causes you to build up more heat
d) two Meds, what is nearly the same cost in heat than your Large, but better damage
e) Alpha out all three which is of course the best result concerning dmg output but also pushes your heat through the rooftop

So what's that little example about? You should be able to bring your Mech in extrem situation and stretch it abilities nigh to breaking point - but at a cost, of course, and of a cost that makes you think twice about it. Overheating should be a step which can give you that extra mile you need in a special situation, but it should also a) make you pay for using it and just not be the normal state a Mech is in.

Think of the great feeling, barely escaping sure death by doing a daring manoeuver which might result in shutting down your mech for some seconds and now hear your heartbeat as you see them red dots on your radar slowly closing in on your position as you power up again... it's maybe your End, but maybe you can evade them just as close as your last oponent - I personally like my victories to be close ones, they feel much more rewarding by being so.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

There is a coolant pod for Table top if this hasn't been mentioned yet.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Coolant_Pod

Quote

Virtually a self-contained emergency Coolant Truck, the Coolant Pod contain a reserve of compressed freon which can be flushed directly into the attached 'Mechs coolant system, boosting the effectiveness of each Single heat sinks by 200% and each Double Heat Sinks by 150% for 10 seconds.
The experimental coolant pods are under development among all the Inner Sphere and Clans factions, examples produced by the NAIS "Project Power Flush" are functionally identical to prototypes developed by the Scientist Castes on the Clan Homeworlds, but all have been so far unable to overcome the disadvantages of what makes them work so well and so fast: pressurized coolant.

Coolant pods are highly susceptible to weapon fire, a fully pressurized pod will rupture and cause internal damage in the same manner of an ammunition explosion if struck. To avoid over-pressurizing and damaging the coolant systems of the equipped 'Mech, for safety reasons only one pod can be engaged at a time, though multiple pods can be carried. The violent release of coolant is damaging enough to the strained cooling systems of BattleMechs, the fragile modular coolant systems aboard OmniMechs consistently fail under the strain despite years of research by the Clans.

Game Rules

Each coolant pod weighs one ton and takes up one critical spot. For each turn a coolant pod is active, each heat sink (no matter if single or double) dissipates 1 extra heat point. Only one pod may be used per turn. If a full/unusued pod is struck, the pod causes internal damage (Unbound/Tactical Handbook = 20 point, Maximum Tech/Tactical Operations = 10 points) just like an ammunition explosion

Edited by 8100d 5p4tt3r, 02 May 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Famous]

There are a few good ways to balance ammo and energy weapons in terms of economy and a few, if not all, have been peeking out of other posts:

1. Give ammo based weapons a secondary effect in addition to the damage- We've seen in the game play footage that impacts cause your 'Mech to rock, so by paying for ammo you're paying for the ability to hamper your opponent's ability to fight. Personally I would like to see 'Mechs that can be knocked over by concentrated firing. If my Raven were to catch a full broadside from a Rifleman (example only) there should be a decent chance that I end up on my arse from the impact of four ACs.

2. Increase the severity of heat (firing)- This one is probably the simplest, slow down the speed at which a heat sink dissipates heat. It could be as simple as using a direct TT conversion. 1 heat sink dissipates 1 unit of heat over 10 seconds. 10 seconds in combat can be an eternity and if you choose to run energy heavy you will need to make each shot count because you will not be able to simply spam the fire button. What does this matter to the economy of ammo? It allows the pilot to pay to broadly ignore heat and keeping pouring on fire. Sure I'm paying for ammo every game, but that's my choice.

3. Increase the severity of heat (repairs)- In canon 'Mechs that ride the upper extent of the heat curve are damaging their internal systems, myomers overheat, the heat sinks themselves are degraded from overuse, etc. Players that run energy heavy load outs and reach high heat levels get a bigger repair bill than someone running a mixed bag or pure ammo set up. With this scenario a player who runs pure energy and keeps their heat our of the red line will pay the least in repairs and reloads.