13 replies to this topic

[Inappropriate188]

It's my opinion that these forums are badly in need of a little guidance when it comes to sharing feedback with the developers. While some posts have been undeniably valuable, the vast majority of threads are rife with flame nonsense, empty complaints, wild conjecture, and general pettiness. I am seeing post after post calling out the devs for issues that are still in development, as well as some issues which have not even been implemented yet. This is a waste of a golden opportunity bestowed on us by a company offering to keep us involved in the creative process for years to come. Piranha has repeatedly demonstrated that they are actively listening to gamer voices and have implemented game features based on community feedback numerous times since BETA started. If we want our game designers to listen to us, we need to hold up our end of the bargain and treat THEM with respect, or risk becoming irrelevant to the process altogether.

To that end, I offer a short guide on how to deliver constructive criticism:

1. Realize that a relationship with the game designers is important. Back in the day, video game consumers had no voices. You got what you were given. It was like this for a long time, until game companies realized there was a lot of money on the table, then they start paying attention to their reviews and what people were saying AFTER their games got released. If we were lucky, some of our feedback would see the light of day in the second or third title in the franchise. Now, game designers like PGI are actively seeking out our feedback to help them focus in on our desires and to help them keep us interested for the long term. This is happening in real time on these very forums (just look at any of the patch threads that have resulted in hotfixes for examples). It is a recent phenomenon virtually unseen in the long history of game design and it is a privilege to contribute to the creative process in partnership with the dev team. Don't squander this relationship, because it is purely optional on the part of the developers.

2. Remember that this game is currently still in BETA. BETA testing means a sample of the intended audience tries the product out to help polish it before it is released. It is to be understood that everything about a game in BETA is in potential flux and many things will not work correctly. No one taking part in BETA is entitled to anything and the process doesn't revolve around your personal enjoyment. You are allowed to take part in the BETA test with the express purpose of helping polish the product. If your criticisms don't align with that, then nothing you post will be constructive or of any value to the process. Check your attitude at the door before you type and remember BETA doesn't mean "perfect".

3. When making a post, be careful to clearly differentiate your opinions from facts. A statement like "the Jenner mech is OP" is not a fact, but rather an opinion stated as fact. Because of this, it is likely to be contested and potentially a source of argument. It is better to make such a statement by qualifying it as an opinion, i.e., "I don't like the Jenner mech because I feel it is too powerful". This way, your feelings aren't up on the chopping block as something that needs to be proven incorrect by others. Conversely, don't bother cutting down other people's opinions: there's no point and it isn't constructive.

4. Check your facts. If you're going to discuss a particular issue, make sure what you say is factual and correct. Search the forum, link photos, include your system specs, etc. This helps the devs investigate problems and cuts down on misunderstandings for everyone. Don't make others do your homework for you.

5. Do not criticize things that haven't happened yet. This forum is full of posts condemning things the developers haven't even done yet. This is of no use to anyone, and it's ridiculous. Keep criticism to issues that are real, measurable and actionable. By the same token, avoid speculating on the dev's motives. This also is a waste of everyone's time, and, to my mind, rude as hell. Give the developers the benefit of the doubt and act like an adult.

6. See the positive as well as the negative. Let the dev team know what they are doing right along with the things you think aren't working. This will help keep them focused on a winning solution for the best possible product. It also helps to foster a positive atmosphere and keeps the discussion from devolving into one giant rant session. Don't be afraid to suggest solutions to problems you have identified. This is also a positive contribution and may be one of the most direct ways for you to influence a change. Complaining is easy. Thinking up solutions is the challenge.

7. If it doesn't help make the game better, don't bother posting it. Calling people out, trolling, flaming, accusing the devs of this or that bad intention, threatening to quit, etc. have no place on this forum, especially not during BETA testing. If you have an issue specific to your account, contact Pirhana Games directly through their customer support channels. Again, the relationship with the devs is important: show that you respect the opportunity you have been given by rising to the occasion and posting things more substantial than just you grinding an axe. No one wants to hear it anyway.

These are just a few of the things to consider before providing feedback on the forums. Let's raise the bar on our participation in this BETA test.

PS> Just as a point of clarification, I am not a PGI employee or otherwise affiliated with the development of MWO in any way. These opinions are mine alone.

[Martini Henrie]

This deserves becoming a stick and required reading for the vast majority of forum users.

[Mitta]

It works both way's. If PGI would communicate more there would be less rumors and less turmoil after each patch.

I concur that S.M.A.R.T. feedback is needed. But they killed the support system. They killed the template for simple feedback.

And on top of that they do what every developer in of this generation does. They label their game BETA so they have a vast majority of BETA testers, and then just forget to test allot themselves that combined with not communicating to most of our posts feeds the urge to go rampage on the developers.

I would like to see more posts like in the development blog and the command chair sections. Where they actually showed details of what they are planning or working on.

[sokitumi]

You should write a book about it... oh wait..

[BlightFang]

Mainly just read the bolds, but this exactly what the forum needs more of in order to help make the game become successful.

Edited by BlightFang, 21 November 2012 - 01:20 AM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Quote

It works both way's. If PGI would communicate more there would be less rumors and less turmoil after each patch.

I want to just that that this doesn't excuse users from using common sense, or understanding the process of things, or perhaps double checking what they're saying and refrain from saying such things if it's only just going to rattle peoples emotions.

There's a lot of unrest in the forums as of late, and I would say that's hardly PGI's fault, and more the peoples fault for dishing out accusations about "promises" and being totally ignorant to what a Beta means and disrespectful to PGI. If we were a little more inviting, maybe they would like to stop by once and a while and joke around with us. Instead, we take their jokes literally and place them out of context and call them out for insulting players, treating us like trash, talking down on us and so forth. Is that really an environment that they want to come into?

However,

Quote

I would like to see more posts like in the development blog and the command chair sections. Where they actually showed details of what they are planning or working on.

I do agree with this. I just hopped in there to check it out and it's been months since the last dev blog. I wouldn't mind more communication on that front though, kind of outside of people's ridiculous comments.

What it comes down to for me is keeping my eyes on release. This is the rough grind that everybody hates, and it's hard to keep positive when everyone's comments are so negative. Heck, some of them aren't even committed to constructive criticism, or even for discussion, instead there's numerous threads about just that guy and his dog's opinion. No one's using search to see duplicate threads existing, and so on. We have a responsibility as well, and this is totally a privilege and not an entitlement. We should be at least a little more respectful and use discretion in our posts, there's nothing that justifies us not to.

From 300: "There's no reason we can't be civil."

[Ohgodtherats]

Hooray for sanity! Although point 5 is debatable... in any sense. Perhaps approach thing that haven't been implemented yet more carefully but, yeah the recent 3rd person hoopla was entirely justified. The current community flat out doesn't want it. We should not restrict ourselves to things that are in game if they are CLEARLY announced (and it was. Perhaps Russ didn't make himself clear enough but what he actually said in that fatefully podcast was 3rd person is coming guys...there has been some redacting since then but even if that's not what he meant, it is what he said and therefor fair game.) Now that doesn't give you free rein to be a jerk about it... but restricting discussion to things in game is unrealistic and possibly unhelpful.


EDIT changed Rain to rein

Edited by Ohgodtherats, 21 November 2012 - 01:29 AM.

[Asmudius Heng]

Mitta, on 21 November 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

It works both way's. If PGI would communicate more there would be less rumors and less turmoil after each patch.

I concur that S.M.A.R.T. feedback is needed. But they killed the support system. They killed the template for simple feedback.

And on top of that they do what every developer in of this generation does. They label their game BETA so they have a vast majority of BETA testers, and then just forget to test allot themselves that combined with not communicating to most of our posts feeds the urge to go rampage on the developers.

I would like to see more posts like in the development blog and the command chair sections. Where they actually showed details of what they are planning or working on.

Agreed, PGI communicate a lot in some ways but say very little in other ways.

[Orkhepaj]

[redacted]

1. Realize that a relationship with the game designers is important
thats for devs to decide
2. Remember that this game is currently still in BETA. B
sure beta , but already accepts money--> it is not beta
3. When making a post, be careful to clearly differentiate your opinions from facts. A
yeah as you should
5. Do not criticize things that haven't happened yet. T
maybe they criticize ,why those things havent happened yet

7. If it doesn't help make the game better, don't bother posting it. C
so if you think your post help anything you are clearly mistaken--> delete it

Edited by Chris K, 21 November 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Asmudius Heng, on 21 November 2012 - 01:27 AM, said:

Agreed, PGI communicate a lot in some ways but say very little in other ways.

It's because 14053 people make threads about getting promised something that they weren't.
PGI has every right to keep their mouths shut and remove us from the development process, and it's us to blame not them. Like I said earlier, we also have responsibilities to own up to, and a certain respect to show for PGI for even letting us talk to them and even play their game so early in the process.

Orkhepaj, on 21 November 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

Another useless topic.

7. If it doesn't help make the game better, don't bother posting it. C
so if you think your post help anything you are clearly mistaken--> delete it

OH LOOK. THE IRONY AGAIN.
OP is at least positive. Something this entire forum is severely lacking, of which you are contributing nothing to.
Cheer up, sir!

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 21 November 2012 - 01:46 AM.

[Minos Murdoc]

Orkhepaj, on 21 November 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

Another useless topic.

1. Realize that a relationship with the game designers is important
thats for devs to decide
2. Remember that this game is currently still in BETA. B
sure beta , but already accepts money--> it is not beta
3. When making a post, be careful to clearly differentiate your opinions from facts. A
yeah as you should
5. Do not criticize things that haven't happened yet. T
maybe they criticize ,why those things havent happened yet

7. If it doesn't help make the game better, don't bother posting it. C
so if you think your post help anything you are clearly mistaken--> delete it

Wow that was a mature reply to a post.
The OP was trying to get a point and his thoughts across & in my opinion a valid one.

[PurpleNinja]

Holy ****, you should write forum rules.
I have no idea what you wrote there, I read only the bold sentences.
Keep this in mind, devs don't read the forums, so it makes no diference if you post positive or negative feedback.

So, let us whine and troll.

[Quad Ace]

Inappropriate188, on 21 November 2012 - 12:54 AM, said:

It's my opinion that these forums are badly in need of a little guidance when it comes to sharing feedback with the developers. While some posts have been undeniably valuable, the vast majority of threads are rife with flame nonsense, empty complaints, wild conjecture, and general pettiness. I am seeing post after post calling out the devs for issues that are still in development, as well as some issues which have not even been implemented yet. This is a waste of a golden opportunity bestowed on us by a company offering to keep us involved in the creative process for years to come. Piranha has repeatedly demonstrated that they are actively listening to gamer voices and have implemented game features based on community feedback numerous times since BETA started. If we want our game designers to listen to us, we need to hold up our end of the bargain and treat THEM with respect, or risk becoming irrelevant to the process altogether.

To that end, I offer a short guide on how to deliver constructive criticism:

1. Realize that a relationship with the game designers is important. Back in the day, video game consumers had no voices. You got what you were given. It was like this for a long time, until game companies realized there was a lot of money on the table, then they start paying attention to their reviews and what people were saying AFTER their games got released. If we were lucky, some of our feedback would see the light of day in the second or third title in the franchise. Now, game designers like PGI are actively seeking out our feedback to help them focus in on our desires and to help them keep us interested for the long term. This is happening in real time on these very forums (just look at any of the patch threads that have resulted in hotfixes for examples). It is a recent phenomenon virtually unseen in the long history of game design and it is a privilege to contribute to the creative process in partnership with the dev team. Don't squander this relationship, because it is purely optional on the part of the developers.

2. Remember that this game is currently still in BETA. BETA testing means a sample of the intended audience tries the product out to help polish it before it is released. It is to be understood that everything about a game in BETA is in potential flux and many things will not work correctly. No one taking part in BETA is entitled to anything and the process doesn't revolve around your personal enjoyment. You are allowed to take part in the BETA test with the express purpose of helping polish the product. If your criticisms don't align with that, then nothing you post will be constructive or of any value to the process. Check your attitude at the door before you type and remember BETA doesn't mean "perfect".

3. When making a post, be careful to clearly differentiate your opinions from facts. A statement like "the Jenner mech is OP" is not a fact, but rather an opinion stated as fact. Because of this, it is likely to be contested and potentially a source of argument. It is better to make such a statement by qualifying it as an opinion, i.e., "I don't like the Jenner mech because I feel it is too powerful". This way, your feelings aren't up on the chopping block as something that needs to be proven incorrect by others. Conversely, don't bother cutting down other people's opinions: there's no point and it isn't constructive.

4. Check your facts. If you're going to discuss a particular issue, make sure what you say is factual and correct. Search the forum, link photos, include your system specs, etc. This helps the devs investigate problems and cuts down on misunderstandings for everyone. Don't make others do your homework for you.

5. Do not criticize things that haven't happened yet. This forum is full of posts condemning things the developers haven't even done yet. This is of no use to anyone, and it's ridiculous. Keep criticism to issues that are real, measurable and actionable. By the same token, avoid speculating on the dev's motives. This also is a waste of everyone's time, and, to my mind, rude as hell. Give the developers the benefit of the doubt and act like an adult.

6. See the positive as well as the negative. Let the dev team know what they are doing right along with the things you think aren't working. This will help keep them focused on a winning solution for the best possible product. It also helps to foster a positive atmosphere and keeps the discussion from devolving into one giant rant session. Don't be afraid to suggest solutions to problems you have identified. This is also a positive contribution and may be one of the most direct ways for you to influence a change. Complaining is easy. Thinking up solutions is the challenge.

7. If it doesn't help make the game better, don't bother posting it. Calling people out, trolling, flaming, accusing the devs of this or that bad intention, threatening to quit, etc. have no place on this forum, especially not during BETA testing. If you have an issue specific to your account, contact Pirhana Games directly through their customer support channels. Again, the relationship with the devs is important: show that you respect the opportunity you have been given by rising to the occasion and posting things more substantial than just you grinding an axe. No one wants to hear it anyway.

These are just a few of the things to consider before providing feedback on the forums. Let's raise the bar on our participation in this BETA test.

PS> Just as a point of clarification, I am not a PGI employee or otherwise affiliated with the development of MWO in any way. These opinions are mine alone.

A vote for sticky please.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Free bump.
Sticky would be nice.