65 replies to this topic

[ZliDiabetichar]

i don't cry often about the game balance, but something needs to be done about it.
For the x-th time, when playing the game, an enemy cat flies from behind the hill with his jetpacks, aims at me in the mid air, fires 2xlrm 20 salvos at me and does 60+ dmg to me. When i finally have a position to use my weapons, am already half dead with half of my weapons destroyed, and the ******* has more or similar speed as i do, just he is going backwards.

Am using 2 ac 20,my optimum range is 0-270m, if i hit with both i do 40 dmg. I have standard 200 engine, max speed 53 kph, 63 (or 9 tons of ac20 ammo, 7 shots per ton).

He has 2 lrm 20, optimum range 180-1000m, if he hits full he does 70+ dmg, he can mount an xl engine and has 9 shots per ton. And yea, he almost has auto aim. And thats without artemis.

So what i am saying is, the ******* can lock me, 300-450 m away, use the jumpjets to stay in the air for 3 sec (for lock), and do 70 dmg to me (from 300-450m its almost impossible to dodge the missiles in a 53kph mech), and becomes "invisible" (behind the hill) again.

So, am gonna try to add some constructive proposition how to fix this, because its not fun not having a chance.

1: make using jumpjets create shaking of the cockpit or render lock impossible while using them
2: using a weapon in fly mode (jumpjets) creates major instability on the mech (force from firing a weapon makes a force that intefers with the force from the jumpjets making a discrete change in resultant force that is imposible to compansate and creates the instability/shaking) that would cause almost 100% of braking the lock
3: reduce the maximum reverse speed on mechs
4: reduce the speed of the rockets (making them easier to dodge)
5: increase the time for the lock
6: reduce the time for braking the lock
7: make the missiles less smart, when the lock is broken, they continue the last know path or self destruct
8. increase the minimum range of LRMs to 500m, and create MRM that would go with optimum range of 180-500 m but with different stats. Creating that would force support cats to balance the range creating better balance for the rest of us, while keeping the stats/usefulness of support weapons such as LONG RANGE weapons.

Currently LRMs only bad point is the price of the lrms and the minimum range of 180 m that is a joke for xl engine lrm cats (vs some med/heavy/assault mechs). The only way to kill a lrm cats is to get it in the open and run head on to try to decrease the range (or if the cat is caught unguarded). They are more then balanced weapons when compared to other weapons especially since they are both support and damage weapons with short lock timers and low need to maintain the lock vs slower mechs. Damn for a precise hit i need a 1.5-2 sec (aiming and waiting for the torso to align with my aim) and he needs 3 for autoaim. That he can go have a cup of coffee while i need to run to find cover. Just think about it.

So manual aim, vs almost autoaim, then i need to run while he waits for his fuel to reload in a perfectly safe conditions. If i get closer, he outruns me. Sounds fun?

Currently i see little to no satisfaction in playing a close range mech because am killed/disabled in 2-3 salvos from a lrm cat from 200-500 m.

And the interesting fact is that lrm atlases don't cause similar problems because of their lack of mobility. On the other hand hunch's have the mobility, but not the jumpjets, and can't carry so much lrms.

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 02 December 2012 - 08:42 AM.

[Fuzzyhead]

sry but you forced me to do this! nr108

[Kain]

I don't see this as a balancing issue, just tactics.
although the jump,lock and fire feature is pretty cheeky, i haven't seen that , only on streakcats..

but a LRM boat is just a role on the battlefield, and you need tactics to destroy it, just like streakcats, light mechs and brawlers.
-keep behind cover and advance
- let him deplete all his ammo
- use lights to get a lock on him to call fire support.
- etc..

Your mech is a slow brawler, so you also don't want to have the intention to take the lrm mech on your own
you need to advance carefully, and your teammates need to distract/destroy their long range fire support.

Maybe they can tweak the lock, but I have no problems with LRMs, and i'm a hunchie brawler, they are annoying and can do a lot of damage, but when i die due to LRM fire, i know that I was not using cover, and my team don't target the lrm mechs.

[Cpt Jason McCarthy]

Need to change/destroy every mechanism related to LRM and the JJ just because you loose sometimes against some players using them effectively.

L2P and stop QQ. Or Leave !

[Xendojo]

Yea this is a non-issue.

LRM balance is....well, pretty balanced. Jumpjets need some work, but what adjustments they need will not stop jump sniping. Jump sniping is and has been a part of Mechwarrior for a long time. If you are trying to advance on an LRM boat through open ground and get pelted with LRM the whole time....it is YOUR fault, not the games. As a slow brawler you REALLY have to use cover, and teamwork to get into fighting position. If you are using 2 AC/20 you are in an a K2 or a CTF-4X, and neither of those are fast.

So basically this this all comes down to pilot error. Learn your role, learn to use cover and tactics.

EDIT: And just in case you are wondering, yes i am speaking from experience. Iv'e been playing almost exclusively, slow short range brawlers since August, and have learned how to flank the long range mechs without being detected. It can be done, so really all i am getting out of your post is QQ RAGE QQ.

Edited by Xendojo, 02 December 2012 - 09:36 AM.

[MasterBLB]

ZliDiabetichar, on 02 December 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Am using 2 ac 20,my optimum range is 0-270m, if i hit with both i do 40 dmg. I have standard 200 engine, max speed 53 kph, 63 (or 9 tons of ac20 ammo, 7 shots per ton).

There are such ways to fight missisle boats:
1.Use long range weapons like gauss/er laser
2.Use fast-moving mech and run from cover to cover to reduce distance below LRM minimal range
2a.Use fast mechs near cover to lure boats into shooting at them to waste ammo
3.Use own missisle boats in team and focus fire

There is a 4th way,though.
It requites good teamwork and communication,and knowledge of a map.In some game on Forest Colony I was playing Jenner against 3 missisle boats,and my team had also similar numbers of them.Anyway,the point was it wasn't possible to travel in the open areas for both sides.
How we broke the dead lock?
I told teammates I'll try to sneak past their lines and mark their boats on radar.Instead of direct approach which would be a suicide I took my way through tunnel.Once I get past the boats I DIDN'T ATTACK THEM,but I locked one as target and told my artillery to took it down,meanwhile maneuvering carefully to stay behind the targeted mech to avoid detection.This way we destroyed 2 of 3 enemy boats,which was a breaking point of the match.
You could do the same,and once detected you could demolish a mech or two with your double AC20's.


You fullfil none of the conditions above and you're crying you just can't fight them in frontal assault?With your mech configuration?Dude,wake up!
It's not LRMs are overpowered,it's you are not smart and skilled enough to drive mech like yours properly

Edited by MasterBLB, 02 December 2012 - 09:12 AM.

[ZliDiabetichar]

Shadowpunisher, on 02 December 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

Need to change/destroy every mechanism related to LRM and the JJ just because you loose sometimes against some players using them effectively.

L2P and stop QQ. Or Leave !

I said what i think, and its good to have people agree/disagree with me. And please try to use a valid argument to counter my statement like the fellow mechwarriors before and after your post. I tried to use constructive criticism, and offer some ideas. You didn't do nether nor did you provide a valid contra argument. You just offered a quick reaction that has 0 value.

As for the rest of you, i will reconsider my approach because your views (in my pov) are at least partially valid (my lack of skill). But i still think that lrm jj sniping needs to be changed because it makes lrm a direct damage weapon and not a support weapon, and it does too much dmg for its tonnage and needed skill for a direct damage weapon.

Also read my suggestions for the change, non of them are game braking or some huge nerf, most of them are slight nerfs, that would not brake a role of support mechs.

Btw, can somebody post his view of what a (slower) heavy should be good at? Against what type of mechs and range? Maybe this is the best way for me to learn what i should do (already using cover if its possible, and NOT playing as Rambo ).

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 02 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Xendojo]

Just be happy the K2 didn't get JJ. And also speaking as a long time AC/20 user, you can hit targets up to 500m out. It just takes a whole lot of practice to get the aim and timing down. But you CAN engage targets outside of optimal range.

EDIT: And believe me, it will make people doubt and/or think twice about poking their head out if you connect outside of max range.

Edited by Xendojo, 02 December 2012 - 09:31 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

So ... you got outplayed, suck at zigzaging and that somehow makes catapults OP ... Hm. Let me think. Oh yes. LEARN TO PLAY!

Sorry kids. I just couldn't resist.

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 02 December 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[DEADTH]

You'd hate my 4 x lrm15 - artemis boat, but i get neutralized pretty often. There are drawbacks to fitting out a high damage missile boat, the risk-vs-reward. Sometimes a couple of lights can cut me down before I've had a chance to rain mayhem. Sometimes not. If the other team sucks, good luck.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

sry couldnt resist.If you mean this topic like real my only help is L2P brah.You know if you charge LRM carrier in the open you deserve do be hammered down by his LRM in 10 seconds.

[Lege]

Most maps have a tunnel.
LRMs don't need to be nerfed, play an LRM boat for a day and find their weaknesses.

[Mordin Ashe]

Just for the record, even if I play my most LRM boatish Mech (Atlas D-DC), anything heavier than 50 tons charging me up close will kill me. For Catapult, basically any mech within 180m is your death. With all the respect to the OP, LRMs were overpowered back in the closed beta. Today, if you have problems with getting to the enemy, LRMs are going to be the least of your problems.

[Xendojo]

I like your #2 suggestion, it would make complete sense that firing a weapon in the air(not missiles though) would destabilize your mech. Seeing as your gyro has nothing but JJ to counter-balance the force generated when you fire. And those are limited.

Edited by Xendojo, 02 December 2012 - 09:53 AM.

[ZliDiabetichar]

guys, am not saying that LRMs are op in their main role, am saying the current implementation makes them extremely usable for a role they are not supposed to be. Long range support mechs are not supposed to be front mechs that do most of the damage.
And yes, i was outplayed as a noob more then few times because:
i don't fly,
i don't shoot homing missiles,
can outrun other heavy mechs,
and get out of cover and do double damage then all other nonLRM mechs (except srm boats) and then hide behind cover in 4-5 sec from 180-1000m.

But what i can do is get close and do more focused damage and thats what am trying to do most of the time.

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 02 December 2012 - 10:27 AM.

[Flapdrol]

A 2x AC20 cat is not the best choice countering a jumpjetting lrm cat, but hard cover should still work. Anyway, I hope the jumpjets will be fixed soon, only needing one to lift a cataphract from the ground is a bit ridiculous.

[Inveramsay]

No, the lrms are fine. This is a problem on your side completely. Play with a well rounded build like you're meant to and you won't have problems like this.

[Stormgut]

This is your fault for running a cheesy dual AC/20 Cat. Getting eaten for free by LRM cats is one of the prices you pay for running a super-slow, super-short-range mech.

Do you have no common sense? If you stood a chance against LRMs in that build, how awful would they be against someone who is actually a decent counter to LRMs?

As for this:

Quote

Long range support mechs are not supposed to be front mechs that do most of the damage.

The best LRM pilots are those that keep up close behind the front line brawlers on their team and provide support against targets 300-400m away, not the cheesy boats that sit on a hill and click on targets from 800m. They do more reliable damage, and aren't a liability for the team when enemy scouts break through the line to harass them.

TL;DR: They're doing it right, you're doing it wrong.

[ZliDiabetichar]

Stormgut, on 02 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

This is your fault for running a cheesy dual AC/20 Cat. Getting eaten for free by LRM cats is one of the prices you pay for running a super-slow, super-short-range mech.

How is it cheesy if it super slow, super short range?

Stormgut, on 02 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

Do you have no common sense? If you stood a chance against LRMs in that build, how awful would they be against someone who is actually a decent counter to LRMs?

Try to read the whole topic. And yes, if you are gonna be support or artillery, then a brawler should stand a chance one on one because: it would mean that brawlers aren't needed in this game. If we all play scatted LRM boats, why use a brawler if it isn't better then 1 long range support? U can switch to targets faster then brawler, ur faster then a brawler, u do more dps then a brawler. So scouts and LRM boats, why use anything else?

Stormgut, on 02 December 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

As for this:
The best LRM pilots are those that keep up close behind the front line brawlers on their team and provide support against targets 300-400m away, not the cheesy boats that sit on a hill and click on targets from 800m. They do more reliable damage, and aren't a liability for the team when enemy scouts break through the line to harass them.

TL;DR: They're doing it right, you're doing it wrong.

So you are saying is that LRM boats should rain unavoidable hell, should have more mobility, should have more damage, should be able to move from target to target in 3-4 sec almost not depending on position then the rest us close/medium range mechs?

Am asking you again, why then play anything else? If we are to play, we should stay in caves? LRM are supposed to soften targets NOT TO KILL THEM (especially in 10 sec).

Ok, no problem, them return the head box size, so i can 1 shot u.

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 02 December 2012 - 01:18 PM.

[matux]