63 replies to this topic

[RragnarR40k]

Ectar, on 21 November 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

AC2 knocking has no physical justification.



Well Gauss has 1200 m/s, not much slower then 2000, but slug is MUCH heavier and travel pretty much the same distance, but there is no knock, almost none, By all laws of physics small mechs should be just nailed to the nearest rock by Gauss slug ....l but it is not happening, so can somebody explain to me why?

Here is my explanation that AC/2 knock is pure fake

KE = 1/2 (M * (V * V))

1/2 (100kg * (1200^2)) = 72000000 Joules For Gauss

1/2 (13.3kg * (2000^2)) = 26600000 Joules For AC2

1/2 (142kg * (750^2)) = 39937500 Joules For AC20


AC2 has 3 times less then energy then Gauss....what kind of VERY HIGH KINETIC IMPACT are you talking about ?

This is a GAME...

You can't base balancing on physics, there are too many other factors that play a role in game balancing.

FI. Laggy crap pc's, internet latency, network coding vs the hitboxes in this game and so on...

Physics and game balancing would go well together if you let all weapons auto hit and equated everything for all players. Now that would be quite a game ehh??? **** fun stuff- not sure that I know many who would play that game...

So forget about calculations like those to justify game changes...

They DON'T work in praksis in pc games...

Edited by RragnarR40k, 22 November 2012 - 06:00 PM.

[Sir Roland MXIII]

RragnarR40k, on 22 November 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

So bacause you get focused by ac2 or ultra ac5 fire you automatically assume that the shaking makes the weapon broken???

That's kinda lame...!!

SRM - shakes
SSRM - shakes
LRM - shakes


SSRM pults do more damage and shake you just as much if not worse, excuse me, but I fail to see how a weapon like an ac that actually takes a little skill to hit with, unless your target is a dullwit standing still shooting duck, is in anyway op or too good because of the shake...

Also for everyone that is so focused on the dps of AC2's and 5's, - these weapons are not autohit - they require skill to use. DPS is fine if you hit but **** if you miss. Bigger damage weapons focus down single armour locations much faster than fast fire rate projectile weapons due to the weapon being harder to aim at the same location when shooting a moving target...

The shaking actually doesn't shake your aim at all, so if you stay cool and don't panic and just keep your reticle at the center of the red square as good as you can manage if the target is moving you'll still hit just as nice as before. Meaning, DON'T panic and you'll do fine..

I recommend trying these weapons out for real before you cry nerf...

I'd like to see you do 600+ dps with 4 ac2's - haven't seen that yet...

Lots of other builds that outperform ac's on full battles.

And keep in mind - AC's are heat ********, you will run hot unless you equip a lot of heatsinks/double-heatsinks.


Only weapons that are op and broken imho are the SRM and SSRM

6 x 15 damage SSRM pult - crazy damage to a mech and especially when most missiles hit the same location when fired on close range...

Agree with everything said here, minus the SRM / SSRM are OP bit. ACs require skill and patience... just like any other weapon, to varying degrees.

[RragnarR40k]

Sir Roland MXIII, on 22 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

Agree with everything said here, minus the SRM / SSRM are OP bit. ACs require skill and patience... just like any other weapon, to varying degrees.

I may be exaggerating a bit on the SRM, since they actually balanced them slightly, but SSRM are just a bit too good. My friend runs an SSRM pult with 4 SSRM and 2 medium lasers. He usually does between 600 and 1000 damage per match with that setup and accounts for 4-7 kills on average. Auto hit on SSRM is a bit too good...

Last patch boosted SSRM with 100% accuracy, less spread on the rockets and more damage. (according to the devs they did less damage than intended)...

Edited by RragnarR40k, 22 November 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Dagnome]

xXBagheeraXx, on 21 November 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

quad ac2's ARE troll builds...i was nearly in tears laughing on coms when i made a 2 ac2 dragon and watching assault mechs unable to return fire....as they said the dps is fine, the knock is simply too much.


@Arks that trick only really works at close range, in the open your hosed... :/

Actually with the Cataphract my quad AC2 build can average between 300-600 damage a game, no troll there.

[AC]

The recycle on AC2's needs to be increased to around .9 second. Right now they fire so fast you actually overheat. That should never be the case on a small cal weapon like that in MW. It would also stop people from using these to brawl with and have them use them more for range like they should be used. It would also make the AC 5 and AC 10 more useful if you wanted more up close punch.

[Kreisel]

I know they increased the recycle time on the AC2 to make them better, but it has gone a bit overboard, to the point the AC runs hotter than the vast majority of lasers and is one of the highest damage per second weapons in the game. Which just feels backward thematically.

It also removes the weapons usefulness for a certain niche... the ability to continue to do damage while you running hot, slowing down how fast you cool off, but letting you keep fighting as you cool. That was always kinda the point of AC's, it was like weapons with personal heatsinks built in. Sure they might not be heat neutral, but they were low heat options for the amount of damage they did. This made them feel unique and distinctive from the lasers, even when the lasers we blasts and not Beams in past games. That flavor is lost when the AC just becomes a supper machine-gun that builds heat way faster than you can deal with it (20 heatsinks just to make 1 heat neutral).

The knock effect is largely a problem because it happens sooo much sooo fast (no one complained about it back when the weapon was slower). So reducing the weapons speed would help with this, as well as the heat problems it creates. The knock effect would be much more interesting, dynamic and 'thinking' weapon if it had a long enough cooldown to where you were timing your shots to try and disrupt incoming fire rather than just holding down the button knowing you foe couldn't respond for as long as you have ammo.

The Ultra AC 5 Jams for a reason. what about the RAC (the one that is SUPPOSED to fire a constant stream of AC 2 bullets, SIX TIMES faster than the Ac2 but be supper prone to jamming and cause a lot of heat for 2 tons more)? If it sticks to lore that would be doing 24 DPS and 12 HPS O_o. If this is the normal AC2 what do you make the Ultra AC 2? 8dps, 4 HPS? They would outclass everything! Even the rest of the teir 2 tech couldn't stand up to that, sure Ultra AC20's might be scary but good luck getting one into range or hitting with it when for a fraction of the weight you can core an Atlas in seconds, while making it impossible for him to move, or even tell what the heck is going on. Sure theses weapons may be literally years away (3057) for IS, but the Clans arrive with them. There is NO room to create these weapons as distinctive from the AC2 when it exits as it does now. The future balance or introducing new and distinctive weapons requires the AC2 have a longer cooldown.

Can you imagine what the stock Jaggermech would be like if it was added with weapons the way they are right now? 2x AC2, 2xAc 5, 2 medium lasers... and lore wise this is a mech that's supposed to be able for fire all of it's weapons while standing still and not generate any heat... it current form it would core mech and overheat both in a matter of seconds.

At the rates were dealing with even very small changes might make a large difference, it might feel much better at even 0.6 (3.3 dps, 1.6 HPS), or 0.75 (2.6 dps, 1.3 HPS), who knows until it's tested but maybe it needs to go all the way back up to 1 sec (2 dps, 1 hps) to feel right. I for one push for jumping it all the way back up to 1 second, making it a moderate damage per second, long range, low heat weapon it was meant to be, When Ultra AC 2 are introduced they would then be close to what the AC2 is now, but at the risk of jaming... and with a pause, double rock, pauses tempo that makes it more possible for intelligent play on both the part of the one firing the weapon and being hit by it.. But right now the weapon simply shoots too fast for the good of game balance. Both because it means there is no longer a moderate weight low heat weapon and because at the current speed it's DPS plus constant knockback combine to keep foes helpless while they lose a tremendous amount of armor very quickly, even at long enough ranges where many weapons are unable to engage yet.

Edited by Kreisel, 22 November 2012 - 10:52 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Dagnome, on 22 November 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Actually with the Cataphract my quad AC2 build can average between 300-600 damage a game, no troll there.

I average that in a dragon with only TWO of the cannons...TROLL BUILD IS TROLL...You know your a troll build when a streak cat runs away from you...I also rocked a cicada so bad he couldnt even pilot his mech, he kept running into buildings...I should probably hop on coms with my clannies and we can all just do ac2 premades from now on just so people get the point...

[RragnarR40k]

Kreisel, on 22 November 2012 - 10:37 PM, said:

I know they increased the recycle time on the AC2 to make them better, but it has gone a bit overboard, to the point the AC runs hotter than the vast majority of lasers and is one of the highest damage per second weapons in the game. Which just feels backward thematically.

What is thematically backward about a fastfiring AC2 causing huge amounts of heat. I have never heard of any largecalliber weapon that was fast firing and not producing vast amounts of heat...??

Dagnome, on 22 November 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

Actually with the Cataphract my quad AC2 build can average between 300-600 damage a game, no troll there.

Exactly what makes that op??

3-600 damage is pretty decent and not op if you stay alive long enough to actually have a real fight and make a difference. And like I posted earlier I have yet to see any quad AC2 builds hit 600+ damage...

xXBagheeraXx, on 22 November 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

I average that in a dragon with only TWO of the cannons...TROLL BUILD IS TROLL...You know your a troll build when a streak cat runs away from you...I also rocked a cicada so bad he couldnt even pilot his mech, he kept running into buildings...I should probably hop on coms with my clannies and we can all just do ac2 premades from now on just so people get the point...

Not interesting to hear what you average with 2 ac's + other weapons...!

And besides if you managed to hit a cicada so much he couldn't steer and kept running into buildings I kinda thinks your thinking a bit too much of yourself. The Cicada pilot was either a total noob or standing still if that was the case.

Cicadas are fast and difficult to hit with ac's so stop boasting troll talk...

Edited by RragnarR40k, 23 November 2012 - 02:25 AM.

[RragnarR40k]

Plase make AC2 premades from now on btw. Still doesn't beat SRM or SSRM premades, or even a nice sniper / mixed premade (depending on the map)...

[RragnarR40k]

RragnarR40k, on 22 November 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Also for everyone that is so focused on the dps of AC2's and 5's, - these weapons are not autohit - they require skill to use. DPS is fine if you hit but **** if you miss. Bigger damage weapons focus down single armour locations much faster than fast fire rate projectile weapons due to the weapon being harder to aim at the same location when shooting a moving target...

The shaking actually doesn't shake your aim at all, so if you stay cool and don't panic and just keep your reticle at the center of the red square as good as you can manage if the target is moving you'll still hit just as nice as before. Meaning, DON'T panic and you'll do fine..

I recommend trying these weapons out for real before you cry nerf...

I'd like to see you do 600+ dps with 4 ac2's - haven't seen that yet...

Lots of other builds that outperform ac's on full battles.

And keep in mind - AC's are heat ********, you will run hot unless you equip a lot of heatsinks/double-heatsinks.

On my Atlas RS I use 4x Large laser and 1x Gauss, I average 500-1000 damage per match.

On My Phract 4x I use 4x AC/2, I average 300-600 damage per match.

Excuse me but I simply fail to see what is op about the AC2???

[grayson marik]

Anyway, no matter if physically justified.... there must be some knock for gauss and ac 20 / 10 as well.
And from the lore and the physics alike, the knock of the bigger, more energy rich, balistic weapons should be bigger than that of an ac2.

In general is see it like this:

Ac2 a soft but almost constant rattle, because of firing speed.
Uac5 more rattle but still manage able, yet annoying due to the 2 shots possibility
Ac 5 like uac5 but without the firing speed of course.

Ac 10 bammm! You have been hit and you should know it! a rattle that leaves you off target for ~.2 sec

Ac 20 / gauss:
What a blow!
Even you torso twisted some 5 or 10 degree to the side you have been hit. or you mech getting 10 kph slower for .5 sec if hit into center line.

The mech weight of the mech that got the hit should be considered though.
So have some multiplicator for smaller mechs like:
Assault mech 90 - 100 ton: effects like described.
80 -85 tonns: +2%
60-75 +4%
50 - 55 + 6%
40 -45 +8%
<40 +10 %


As for the recoil, one could use the model from above with values cut to 1 /5 for the firing mech. ( and yes, i know gauss might be an exception when it comes to recoil - but for balance sake i would include it )

P.S. also posted this under suggestions

[RragnarR40k]

grayson marik, on 23 November 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Anyway, no matter if physically justified.... there must be some knock for gauss and ac 20 / 10 as well.
And from the lore and the physics alike, the knock of the bigger, more energy rich, balistic weapons should be bigger than that of an ac2.

This thread is about the AC2 and not the Gauss, it sounds to me like your trying to promote a boost to the Gauss over AC2 and other AC's which in my honets oppinion is not really justified. The Gauss is very very good and deadly if you utilize it correctly.

Also The Gauss actually does have the same knock. I don't know if you realize this but it actually makes a difference if you shoot someones legs, arms, torso or cocpit. The knock is much much worse on some locations than other...

[Slanski]

Screen shake needs to be proportional to AC size and Mech size. If you get hit by an AC20 in a light there should actually be a chance to be knocked over (like in Battleforce/Mechforce). On an Atlas an AC2 round should barely register in shake. This would give much more immersion and feel to the interaction in the game and balance the Assault's broad, easily hittable frame.

I also currently am not quite sure if the refire rates and adapted varied DPS of the smaller calibres compared to AC10 and 20 doesn't make the big guns obsolete. In MWO you basically only purchase frontload damage with the 14 tons of AC20, but hardly any more DPS than a 6-9 ton gun. On top, you sacrifice range. To me the trade offs and balance currently do not appear right and afford medium-heavy mechs excessive damage advantages over the Assault class, whose privilege the ultra heavy weapons should be (a medium/heavy that mounts it needs to sacrifice a lot to get it).

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

grayson marik, on 23 November 2012 - 02:55 AM, said:

Ac2 a soft but almost constant rattle, because of firing speed.
Uac5 more rattle but still manage able, yet annoying due to the 2 shots possibility
Ac 5 like uac5 but without the firing speed of course.

Ac 10 bammm! You have been hit and you should know it! a rattle that leaves you off target for ~.2 sec

Ac 20 / gauss:
What a blow!
Even you torso twisted some 5 or 10 degree to the side you have been hit. or you mech getting 10 kph slower for .5 sec if hit into center line.

Agreed 100%!

The game needs to be fun, and the current levels of shake from light ACs are not fun.

[FAX MACHINE]

I came around the corner and got hit by Quad a/c 2, turned my Cat's main body red (and I was full armour with Ferros Armour Enhancement). There are 2 issues I have with this;

*While you screen is been bounced from AC/2 fire, a person can't snipe or even shoot properly.

*Damage from combined AC/2 becomes excessive when considering things like weight, cost, ammo payload & cost, rate of fire, etc.

The AC/2 is a fire supressant weapon, and as such the damaged should be mitigated to a much more reduced level. I think a weapon like this needs to be in the game, when used properly it can really rattle the cage of LRM frigates or Snipers (hence the AC/2 rage), and this is all part of tactics. But you shouldn't be able to almost kill a sniper before they even has a chance to reverse thier engine.

I'm going to dig out my old RPG books and dust of some of the pages, I'm certain there was a reason a build like this didn't work in the past.

[FAX MACHINE]

Just quickly, for using more than 1 of the same weapon a fix could be as simple as one of the following;

*increased chance of damage weapons when recieving fire
*increased chance to miss
*increased scaling in heat (i.e. One unit = normal*1, Two unit = normal*1.25, Three unit = normal*1.75, Four unit = normal*2.5)
*increased scaling in weapon jam chance/jam length

Otherwise a mech will be outgunned unless you are using ssrm.

[Vechs]

I've been running a Triple AC/2 Cataphract, (I ditched the 4th AC2 in favor of more sinks and ammo so I can spam the triple mount non-stop).

I think the damage is just fine -- it rewards a player for keeping on target constantly -- Doing all the damage at once is a big advantage for AC20, 10, Gauss, and PPC.

What is totally broken is the knock-around.

According to lore, an AC/2 is something like a 30mm or 40mm cannon, just above the 20mm and .50 cal range of the machine guns. A 40mm shell is not going to rock a 100 ton chunk of metal like it currently does.

I think PGI should do the following:

Base the transfer of screen shaking on both the weight of the mech, and the damage of the projectile.

So the lightest mechs are shook around more (while at the same time being the ones most able to dodge the shells... there's the balance for you).

And the heaviest shells confer more shaking (while at the same time being the slowest firing... again, balanced.)

An AC/20 should knock a Jenner of it's feet, while an AC/2 should barely vibrate an Atlas.

Something like an AC/10 hitting a Hunchback should confer the current level of shaking we have now.

[Spido]

I too agree that the AC2 needs a fix, just for the fact that in comparison to the logical upgrade(AC/5) would be in reality a downgrade. You sacrafice more C-Bills, more weight, get less ammo per ton, less range, slower slug speed, need more crit slots and what do you get a lower DPS gun? The DPS is absurd on the AC/2, as the lowest caliber balistics weapon (real balisitcs, no machine guns) has the same DPS as the AC/10 which is kind of unlogical. Why would then anyone mount the AC/5 or AC/10?

The damage is one thing and the other is cockpit impulse/rock/dimming. It can be just me but i have a feeling that the the impulse/rock
is the same on the AC/2, AC5, AC10 and AC/20. Well with small diffrences at best. With 4xAC/2s and their ROF you are in a constant rattle and your screen is so dimmed that even if you heavent panicked and kept you crosshairs on your target you practicaly wont hit becouse your enemy is moving but you just see a shacking dimmed screen which is enormously frustrating. That seems to be the biggest problem with the AC/2. The damage is a smaller problem but need also tweaking.

[MaddMaxx]

RragnarR40k, on 22 November 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

This is a GAME...

You can't base balancing on physics, there are too many other factors that play a role in game balancing.

FI. Laggy crap pc's, internet latency, network coding vs the hitboxes in this game and so on...

Physics and game balancing would go well together if you let all weapons auto hit and equated everything for all players. Now that would be quite a game ehh??? **** fun stuff- not sure that I know many who would play that game...

So forget about calculations like those to justify game changes...

They DON'T work in praksis in pc games...

I would agree with the Physics angle being a poor model but how about a practical application of say shell weights. Even a dummy like me can figure that if I get hit with a 5 pound rock, it will hurt less and rattle me less than a 50 pound rock. Let's look at the projectile weights just for fun then. It appears RoF is the gauge being used.

AC20 round = 285 lbs - RoF = 4
AC10 round = 133 lbs - RoF = 2.5
AC5 round = 67 lbs - RoF = 1.7
AC2 round = 26 lbs - RoF = .5
Gauss round = 200 lbs - RoF = 4

So if we extrapolate just a bit, given the .5 rof versus 4.0, and a 26lb. slug fired 8 times more often than the 4.0 rof weapon (despite arriving on target in singles), somehow converts a 26lbs projectile to provide the same Impulse factor as a single 200lb slug.

Or a 67lb slug fired 43% more often than the 4.0 generates the same impact force as a 100lb slug.

How about balance the Impulse based on the slug weight and multiply by the base RoF... The result would be the same but it would require the smaller calibers to have to hit every time, in succession, to maintain a rocking that would be a pain.

An AC2 that generates the same Impulse as a AC20 just doesn't make any real sense, Game or otherwise...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 23 November 2012 - 07:36 AM.

[Kobura]

The thing that drives the need for differing impulse for me is the number of shots per ton, and the equal damage inflicted by all compared to each other per ton of ammunition save the AC20 (which loses 10pts worth per ton)

75 shots/ton should not produce the same impulse EACH as something 7 shots/ton, no matter the method of damage delivery, neither to shooter nor shootee.

Bit too eager on the 'send' button there.

http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/ <-- this at the bottom states about AC20 "rock you hard" ...so don't sweat the small stuff in the meantime. IT IS A KNOWN ISSUE!... even if that doesn't make "now" any better.

Edited by Kobura, 23 November 2012 - 07:45 AM.