24 replies to this topic

[hashinshin]

Here are things I've realized no new player knows:

ER weapons generate far more heat.
Shooting more weapons at once generates more heat.

I ALWAYS see 4x ER large laser or 3x ER PPC mechs shooting and generating 60% heat in one volley and over heating. The ER weapons really need to tooltip "GENERATES WAY MORE HEAT" in there, and somewhere it needs to be stated to put your weapons in to 2 groups to minimize heat gen.

[Calmon]

Why do you think shooting weapons at once generate more heat then expected?

[Vermaxx]

I really wish people would stop spreading this rumour without testing things.

Firing weapons generates stated heat (unless the weapon is broken). There is a chart with weapon heats in it. Firing more than one does NOT add "mystery" heat. In fact lasers technically come out LESS heat than stated because the heat applies over the entire duration of the beam, but so does cooling.

[DeadlyNerd]

the only reason why chain firing weapons seems to generate less heat is because just that split second the heat will drop a bit. The alpha just goes straight to the top value of all fired weapons.

[hashinshin]

Or because PGI put in a patch note wayyy back in beta that firing all your weapons at once would generate more heat to counter laser boating.

You can ask them if its still in game. I will assume it was since I've read every patch note since then and note seen it taken out.

[Reoh]

hashinshin, on 21 November 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

Here are things I've realized no new player knows:

ER weapons generate far more heat.
Shooting more weapons at once generates more heat.

I ALWAYS see 4x ER large laser or 3x ER PPC mechs shooting and generating 60% heat in one volley and over heating. The ER weapons really need to tooltip "GENERATES WAY MORE HEAT" in there, and somewhere it needs to be stated to put your weapons in to 2 groups to minimize heat gen.

The mechbay needs to give more info on modules like heat, damage, effective and minimum ranges. I believe an update for these are on the list.

[Star Colonel Mustard Kerensky]

hashinshin, on 21 November 2012 - 07:23 AM, said:

Or because PGI put in a patch note wayyy back in beta that firing all your weapons at once would generate more heat to counter laser boating.

You can ask them if its still in game. I will assume it was since I've read every patch note since then and note seen it taken out.

It wasn't a patch note, it was a forum post.

[RedHairDave]

it seems to, my 4 LL atlas does get one less volly if i just alpha, if i volly and only one at a time, i get off 4 more laser shots. its considerable.

[Taryys]

This is something that they were looking at and I do not know if they implemented it.
This would be great to know if they implemented.
I do not expect they did. This is something that could be tested.

[Wakdjunkaga]

You should test this then-

Take 3 ER PPCs. Load up enough DHS's that you are sitting at 0% heat while sitting still.
Find a safe spot where you will not FF on your team while doing the test as they set up.

Fire all 3 at once, count the seconds to get back down to 0 heat.

Chain fire (using the chainfire {backspace} option) all three, count the seconds to get back down to 0 heat.

Fire 1, count to '2', fire 1, count to '4', fire 1- and count the remaining seconds to get back down to 0 heat.

All three ended up the same didnt they.

If you are basing the 'total heat created' from an alpha of all 3 you are forgetting that there is heat dissapation while waiting for the others to fire. In the long run they will create the same heat and it will take the same amount of time to return to 0 heat.

[wanderer]

Astroniomix, on 21 November 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

It wasn't a patch note, it was a forum post.

And it was a suggestion at that which never went through in the first place.

"Firing multiple weapons of the same kind at the same time = extra heat" is a myth.

Taryys, on 21 November 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

This is something that they were looking at and I do not know if they implemented it.
This would be great to know if they implemented.
I do not expect they did. This is something that could be tested.

It was. It never happened.

RedHairDave, on 21 November 2012 - 07:32 AM, said:

it seems to, my 4 LL atlas does get one less volly if i just alpha, if i volly and only one at a time, i get off 4 more laser shots. its considerable.

That's because firing them in chain fire mode gives you more time to cool down.

[Taryys]

They may have also messed with the engine dHS value too, that may be the issue you are seeing.

[RedHairDave]

Wakdjunkaga, on 21 November 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

You should test this then-

Take 3 ER PPCs. Load up enough DHS's that you are sitting at 0% heat while sitting still.
Find a safe spot where you will not FF on your team while doing the test as they set up.

Fire all 3 at once, count the seconds to get back down to 0 heat.

Chain fire (using the chainfire {backspace} option) all three, count the seconds to get back down to 0 heat.

Fire 1, count to '2', fire 1, count to '4', fire 1- and count the remaining seconds to get back down to 0 heat.

All three ended up the same didnt they.

If you are basing the 'total heat created' from an alpha of all 3 you are forgetting that there is heat dissapation while waiting for the others to fire. In the long run they will create the same heat and it will take the same amount of time to return to 0 heat.

done, more heat from 4 large lasers fired at once, than 4 volleyed . i shut down sooner with the alpha. i misread though, just noticed on the re read. i didnt check for only one volley, but same thing sorta. i got off 4 more shots of LL using the volley method.

Taryys, on 21 November 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

They may have also messed with the engine dHS value too, that may be the issue you are seeing.

all seem to be 1.4, still testing though. its why i think the gauss got to OP now, while before it was fine. with heat the way it is, gauss is just the only way to build a max efficent mech. i used to love my all energy builds, but not as viable anymore, before it was perfect, now its a little off, so in the mean time, i will run gauss on everything that can mount it.

Edited by RedHairDave, 21 November 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Taryys]

That is what I have heard too.
It will be good to know for sure.
I am sure someone can rummage through the game files to find out.

RedHairDave, on 21 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

all seem to be 1.4, still testing though.

[Wakdjunkaga]

RedHairDave, on 21 November 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

i misread though, just noticed on the re read. i didnt check for only one volley, but same thing sorta. i got off 4 more shots of LL using the volley method.

You didn't do the test right. We're not testing how fast you will shutdown.

You need to check the time it takes to return to your baseline heat value. (using only the amount a single alpha would use)

So for your example, fire all 4 LL once- count the time to return to 0 heat.
Then fire with chain fire, but stop after the 4th, count the time to return to 0 heat.

As long as you start counting at the time you started firing and stop when the heat is back to zero- you should find the same result.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Volley vs. chain firing - Most people I've seen forget all about this, they group their weapons and volley fire everything in that group, sometimes even alpha striking with everything. Technically, in BT, alpha strikes are an act of desperation, a do or die situation, or something you do when just about to go into cover, so that you have time to cool some before coming out of cover to fire again.

I have several builds involving 3-4 large lasers, and always have them on chain fire. First, it allows you to manage your heat levels, while still being able to deliver damage continuously. You can rapid chain fire, by tapping the group key quickly, or slow chain fire, by holding that key down. More importantly, you don't blow that volley in a single shot if you happen to miss your target. Fire, miss, adjust, fire, hit, rapid chain fire tapping group key.

Over time, I find that you deliver more constant levels of damage, and are usually able to to keep damage on a target without stop. The target has no down time to maneuver out of damage. They will eventually get under cover, but during those seconds I an constantly harassing them, and possibly they might panic and make a mistake.

As also noted, chain firing allows for each weapon to start it's cooldown while the next is firing, and if you find yourself overheating, all you have to do it take your finger off the key for a few seconds, and your heat drops. Usually, I'm using this time to maneuver to a new position or getting under cover myself.

Mech weapon systems in BT and MW were never meant for continuous volley fire and alpha strike, and chain firing your weapons allows you to varying you wepon firing speeds to manage heat more effectively.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 21 November 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[Taizan]

Maybe I am confusing this - but isn't it normal that firing all weapons at once takes longer for the heat to dissipate than chain firing?

Example:

All 4 weapons at once:
4s for all heat to dissipate

Chainfire all 4 over 4s:
Weapon 1 fired

1s
Weapon 2 fired
Weapon 1 starts to heat dissipate

2s
Weapon 3 fired
Weapon 1 still dissipates heats
Weapon 2 starts to heat dissipate

3s
Weapon 4 fired
Weapon 1 has dissipated all heat
Weapon 2 still dissipates heats
Weapon 3 starts to heat dissipate

4s
Weapon 1 fired again
Weapon 2 has dissipated all heat
Weapon 3 still dissipates heats
Weapon 4 starts to heat dissipate

Personally I try to avoid alpha striking, except I get the perfect opportunity and will not overheat.

[Mu]

you can keep up your continuous fire all you want, I'll be torso twisting and spreading your damage around while you eat my inferior sustained DPS as one big burst in your face.

[Tuhalu]

Strangely enough, I made a chart showing exactly why this is a myth and a false cause earlier today.

If you volley fire, your heat will spike higher than chain fire does for a second or two, but cools off enough to be at the exact same heat as chain firing when that reaches it's maximum heat.

The main difference is that volley fire frontloads the heat and damage, while chain fire spreads the heat and damage out over time. Volley fire tends to put more damage in the same spot, but is riskier to take to high heat where you might shutdown.

[Havyek]

This is why on my 4 erLLAS K2 I have 3 weapon groups.

1 with 2 arm lasers
2 with 2 torso lasers
3 with all lasers and chain fire engaged

What this does is let me front load damage by hitting the same spot with at least 2 lasers, but the continuous fire heats me up. Chain fire lets me still do some damage while trying to find a spot to disengage and cool down.