42 replies to this topic

[Skyfaller]

Lege, on 22 November 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

We had LRM online for a couple days after the Artemis patch, but then LRMs got nerfed so hard within two days they were as bad as they have ever been.
But gauss rifle online is fine and we are going to do it for months?
How about bumping DHS up to 1.6 and seeing if people use gauss rifles any less?
Maybe just reducing heat on PPCs by 2 could work.
Medium lasers heat should be reduced to 3.5 too, since large lasers have a higher damage to heat ratio now.

I agree.

I use gauss in my K2 because its the only thing that makes sense to use. Dual AC20 just dont cut it due to heat issues.

If PP's were viable i'd be using them. I even loaded a quad PPC on the K2, put an XL145 engine on it (only 2.5 tons) and stacked every possible slot with heatsinks.

Fired one quad salvo... and the heat went up to 98%.

Gee... PPC 40 damage per 100% heat cooldown timer..vs gauss 30 damage no heat. What a no brainer.

[CycKath]

AC, on 22 November 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

The simplest way to bring the Gauss into balance is to increase the recycle time. The issue is that other weapons are heat balanced for the most part. (even UAC 2's right now) But gauss don't have that issue. Never needing to worry about heat means the fire as fast as they reload. And in general the reload times in MWO are WAY lower than in the previous MW game. Simply adding a second to the recycle time would balance the gauss.

Totally agree

[MavRCK]

Threads like this annoy me. The gauss is probably the most balanced weapon in the game. If you're focused on a weapon, then perhaps the issue is your skill level. It's not a hard game. Man up and improve! (Gender-neutral, of course!!

Edited by MavRCK, 22 November 2012 - 08:34 PM.

[Knyght]

People whining about whining, whether the initial whining is justified or not, is every bit as bad, and indeed worse than the original whining.

The fact that we can whine about weapons being stupid is a good thing. We haven't had that ability in a previous MW game really and because of this we may end up (eventually...) with a balanced game out of it, rather than the retardedness that was MW4. So, stop whining about whining.

In my opinion, gauss is okay. The Catapult shouldn't be able to mount two of them. The problem is that the other ballistic weapons and PPCs need to be made useful so that people will use them instead of gauss. Another problem is that the ballistic hardpoints are silly. Like, a machine gun takes the same space as a gauss rifle? okay... You can't really balance variants using hardpoints because of this. On the other hand, you can't balance them without them, so yeah.

[AC]

While i don't think this is Gauss Warrior Online, there is still some balancing that needs to be done. If Gauss are so balanced, then why don't we see more AC 10's or AC 20's on Centurions and Hunchies?

Gauss has low heat, fast recycle, and fast travel time. I am just suggesting we increase the recycle some. An AC 20 should be able to out brawl a Gauss, but that isn't the case right now. People are using gauss to brawl! If an AC20 mech has to duck and dodge and weave all the way across the map to get to the Gauss mech, at least it should have a fighting chance once it is in range.

[Skadi]

lee, on 22 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

Hate gauss?

-Don't stop moving.
-Don't run at them in a straight line.
-Don't skimp on armor.
-Don't give them a clean shot.
-Have your team focus fire on gasspults.
-Have your lights harass the living hell out of anyone with gauss.

I rarely get hosed by a gasspult unless I'm being an *** or they catch me by surprise. They fire so slowly, you can often harass the hell out of the pilot and get them missing all over the place. I've used gauss on my Altas builds, and it's okay. Sucks as a short range weapon against fast-moving targets. It also weighs 15 tons and you only get 10 shots per ton, making it a gigantic target for anyone who sees you firing it. Boom goes the Atlas' torso when other pilots recognize you're firing gauss.

Running go's out the window when the guass user actualy has a good aim though, although i shouldnt even be speaking for anything after the patch, its been unplayable for me.

[FromHell2k]

I'am sick of reading kiddy-threads about the gauss.
In my opinion, the only player that complain something about the gauss are the players which are to stupid to handle an enemy gaussapult. They are ridiculous easy to kill. 99% of them need to use a XL Engine > LT/RT=Overkill. If not, they are properly at slow-motion. Since the weapons are in located in the LT and RT, they can't aim that fast, outrunning is even possible with 51kp/h.
To mount a gauss, they have to strip off most of the mechs armor, so they are nearly unprotected. (At least if they want more than 3t of ammo). What I want to say, even if I repeat myself..
The strongest indicator to be a successful gauss-sniper is a simple thing: Your stupidity

If you want to flame me now, go ahead. stupidity

Btw. excuse me for any mistake in my text, english isn't my nativ language.

Edited by FromHell2k, 22 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

you know i have 2 k2 catapults actually....if the ppcs were anything like they were in the other mechwarrior games, id use my ppc cat hands down....fast moving...no ammo...If the double heatsinks I crammed on that K2 were worth a dam it would be very cool running, and the Emp effect when it hit was more disorienting than the Knock from these blasted Ac2 builds... Perhaps if there were popuplar alternatives than Cheesy Ac2 builds to the gauss cannon, you wouldnt see so many issues with them. Some good points were made here tho...The gauss DOES fire a bit too fast...even if it does fire that fast in TT, for the sake of balance they should be slower firing...the heat is FINE, one of the advantages of ALL the ballistic weapons was low heat build up...but if you are going to slow down the fire rate, perhaps one point or so of extra damage to compensate would be good...then it would be too slow firing to risk brawling with it, but very rewarding for players who have decent aim. Also, perhaps moving the ballistics slot on the k2 to the arms would also get rid of the ac20 builds, but still alow gauss cats. However the gauss rifles will be in a vulerable positon, and easily k.o.ed.....however before this is done something needs to be reworked about the Ac2 knock spammers...Im getting tired of these so callled "Pros" rocking quad ac2's on Cataphracts...as it stand the best way to deal with them it to eat thier face with an ac20 or hit them from range with a gauss cat...making those changes to the K2 before the knock issue is fixes is only going to make players all switch to ac2 Cathy's, which wil lead to even more raging...

[FromHell2k]

xXBagheeraXx, on 22 November 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

you know i have 2 k2 catapults actually....if the ppcs were anything like they were in the other mechwarrior games, id use my ppc cat hands down....fast moving...no ammo...If the double heatsinks I crammed on that K2 were worth a dam it would be very cool running, and the Emp effect when it hit was more disorienting than the Knock from these blasted Ac2 builds... Perhaps if there were popuplar alternatives than Cheesy Ac2 builds to the gauss cannon, you wouldnt see so many issues with them. Some good points were made here tho...The gauss DOES fire a bit too fast...even if it does fire that fast in TT, for the sake of balance they should be slower firing...the heat is FINE, one of the advantages of ALL the ballistic weapons was low heat build up...but if you are going to slow down the fire rate, perhaps one point or so of extra damage to compensate would be good...then it would be too slow firing to risk brawling with it, but very rewarding for players who have decent aim. Also, perhaps moving the ballistics slot on the k2 to the arms would also get rid of the ac20 builds, but still alow gauss cats. However the gauss rifles will be in a vulerable positon, and easily k.o.ed.....however before this is done something needs to be reworked about the Ac2 knock spammers...Im getting tired of these so callled "Pros" rocking quad ac2's on Cataphracts...as it stand the best way to deal with them it to eat thier face with an ac20 or hit them from range with a gauss cat...making those changes to the K2 before the knock issue is fixes is only going to make players all switch to ac2 Cathy's, which wil lead to even more raging...

Thats exactly what these whiner wanted: Dual-AC/20 Cats. Now they should enjoy the 102132 complaiments about dual-gauss. It's just natural selection.. We'll kill these game-trolls with everything...

[No7]

In case PGI reads this,
gauss is fine, K2 is fine.

Actually, gauss was nerfed a bit too harshly since it breaks down just by looking at it. Might be a bit excessive.
Make it a tad bit sturdier and it is fine.

Oh, and I'm a bit surprised but LRM is just fine as well.

I could even say that all versions of lasers are fine as well. LLaser is actually a useful weapon now.

PPC on the other hand is horribly broken.

[Kobura]

Nobody seemed to notice that the Gauss has the worst DPS-per-ton-of-gun of all the autocannons...

https://docs.google....5QRHd5Wnc#gid=0

The AC20s in the torsos are kinda the best of bad worlds, considering it disallows XL engines and thereby limits the fatcats' speed.

Gauss are only really a problem when used as a spammy main gun because of the best-damage when it comes to longrange burst, but then so are the AC2s because of certain accommodating attributes of both of these guns (damage, crit size, tonnage considerations etc). The AC2 is more risky, but more rewardy too, with a currently insane reliable DPS.

AC20 out-DPS's all the other ACs once it's in range, but it's a short range with a long run through AC2 and Gauss infested waters.

I predict a drop in knockabout, and for the AC2, a reduction in refire rate to a .75s cooldown, bringing it inline with the desired role (as well as damage per second per ton of gun, etc). A good fix for the Gauss would be to make its reload not infact a "re-"load, but a "pre-"load, where a charge is accumulated by held trigger, and discharged after a brief period, and otherwise not messing with it. It's annoying because you get 30damaged every time you poke your head out, instantly, without fail, versus gausscat. If they actually have to prepare for you to do so, you can mind-game your way to strategic victory against them, something not currently possible, as well as incurring a mental tic for the use of the weapon (have to pay attention and make it a lifestyle when a primary gun instead of clickboom 30damage), putting it effectively in the 'support' or 'secondary/tertiary' weapon role. Sure, you've got mental wherewithall to do your gauss thing in your Atlas-D as you close on your ML range, but once you're ducking and weaving... no free 15-damage cakewalk for you, without >actual< (and most importantly, learnable) skill involved.

[xXBagheeraXx]

FromHell2k, on 22 November 2012 - 10:28 PM, said:

Thats exactly what these whiner wanted: Dual-AC/20 Cats. Now they should enjoy the 102132 complaiments about dual-gauss. It's just natural selection.. We'll kill these game-trolls with everything...

We do NOT under any curcumstances need dual ac20 K2's...that build needs to die in a fire...with the current loadout constraints, the only way to keep the gauss cat and get rid of the ac20 builds is to move the ballistics to the arm mounts. But as i said, not until the ppcs are brought up to snuff...and that blasted firing delay is fixed.

[FromHell2k]

xXBagheeraXx, on 22 November 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

We do NOT under any curcumstances need dual ac20 K2's...that build needs to die in a fire...with the current loadout constraints, the only way to keep the gauss cat and get rid of the ac20 builds is to move the ballistics to the arm mounts. But as i said, not until the ppcs are brought up to snuff...and that blasted firing delay is fixed.

You are one of those who cried for it by flameing the gauss. If they fix the heat-issues on the (ER) PPC, I'll just snipe guys like you with them. At least, if I play my K2 Cata-x4 with Dual AC/10, Quad AC/2/5 is pretty awsome
If you and the other trolls also want to cry about this build.. Well, just cancel your membership or cry until there are no more weapons. No weapons=No balance-problems=no crying, unskilled trolls.

I've forgotten..
Dual ERPPC in the K2 are even more poweful than dual-gauss. Wanna know why? No ammo Just need to care a little about the heat, but thats no problem

Edited by FromHell2k, 22 November 2012 - 10:58 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Thorn Blackwell, on 22 November 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

This is what I see wrong with this community. Only the whiners seem to get any of the devs attention, because they spam the boards with an incessant drone.

Oh, shut up. This isn't just whining based on some gut feeling. If you actually use some metrics to measure different weapon's performance, you will notice that the Gauss Rifle outperforms the PPC and in general the high heat weapons underperform compared to ballistics and missiles (short as ranged).

There are many ways to fix it, but one would be to give us heat sinks that provide 0.2 dissipation/sec. Ideally that already be the single heat sinks but I take DHS doing that as well.

What I definitely do't want to see is some inane Gauss nerf like giving it more fragility. It explodes when destroyed, that's all it needs, and it already does that. The other weapons must be fixed.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 November 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[No7]

Kobura, on 22 November 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

without >actual< (and most importantly, learnable) skill involved.

I'm curious, how do you propose we turn the LRM into a skill based weapon?

and if you play with any 'sniper' based weapon such as gauss, ppc, ac2, etc, you should probably know that it's not fire and forget mode weapons. You actually have to position yourself, finding the target, seeing the target, checking targets movement, leading the shot, hitting the same area for each shot, hiding between shots, timing it with the reload time, etc. It is not that easy at ranges over a few hundred meters.

Now compare that with LRM.
point towards the enemy hitbox, wait a second, click. repeat.

7

[pied]

Gauss Rifle Online. I could only wish. I havn't seen but a handful of gauss rifles in game since the update. Everyone is on this rapid-fire AC kick atm.

I'm against K2 using big ballistics simply because I pilot Hunchbacks most of the time. If my one AC20 shoulder in founders hunchy makes my RT the biggest hitbox on my whole mech, it should be the same for K2.

[Kreisel]

Guass might not be top damage per second, but it IS top damage per heat by a long shot, and since heat is a MAJOR limiter on DPS right now... and since it delivers that large damage all at once to a single location and MWO is a game where not every shot hits and we are often not firing our weapons as fast as possible because we are ducking in and out of cover... Dual Gauss is especially potent when you only need to click a weapon group twice to accurately dish the damage to destroy a side torso on heavy mechs at one of the longest rangers in the game...

Ranges at which only the ERPPC, AC2 and ER Large Laser and LRM's can fight back. All of which have some distinct disadvantage, in most cases heat, in many cases spreading damage out, and for the LRM's the ability to miss entirely because you walked backwards 2 step after taking your shot and they lost their lock. Unlike many of these weapons the gauss also has NO drawback when foes close with you.

Until now... now it's fragile, which gives it A drawback... that's good, that's balanced, it makes people using gauss start to think like snipers and not like... they can just brawl without fear as well. It Also makes the AC20 have a distinct role again, as the big gun for up close, instead of just an inferior guass.

The weapon IS incredibly powerful. One only needs to look at how common they are on the battlefield, and how hated the Gausscat is to see it's a build that was migrated to because it worked, because it was effective... because people got kills with it and were frustrated that they couldn't find anything else viable to do with a K2. That might be the fault of other weapons specifically it's energy counterpart the PPC not being good enough.

I for one feel that if the Gauss rifle has been made fragile, good then it's finally found some balance... it's mostly ok otherwise... mounting 2 together is a gimmick to try and 2 shot mechs through a weird weapon/chassis combination and doesn't in itself make the weapon imbalanced, it's a specific use of the weapon that's cheesy, and the twin AC20 K2 is just as bad. It could maybe have a slightly longer cooldown, but since it's most dangerous poping in and out of cover at long rangers, a longer cooldown wont make much of a difference. It's the other weapons that need to be adjusted to be brought into line with about where the Gauss sits, this mostly has to do with fixing heat, but it also has to do with fixing LRM indirect fire to have a way to compete with popup snipers. (LRMs DO NOT need a damage boost... if you catch someone in the open they are MORE than deadly enough... it's too easy to lose locks and waste shots with even minimal, low cover though)

Edited by Kreisel, 23 November 2012 - 12:41 AM.

[Kreisel]

No7, on 22 November 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:

I'm curious, how do you propose we turn the LRM into a skill based weapon?

[snip]

Now compare that with LRM.
point towards the enemy hitbox, wait a second, click. repeat.

You clearly have not fired LRM in a while, It hasn't been fire and forget since before open beta... it is infact now the LEAST fire and forget weapon in the entire game... as if you do not remained solidly locked on the target the entire time until you missiles slowly arc through the air until they impact they are almost guaranteed to miss... even in many cases where your target does not move. Targets often have plenty of time to back into cover... so a lot of skill goes into conserving ammo and knowing which 'clear' shots you can't take because 5 or more second later they will get behind a hill. Also no other weapon has to think about things like AMS and if it's event POSSIBLE to do damage to a AS7-K, or when it's worth it to nerf your damage and shoot at them anyway. Or make the judgement call as to if the members of your PUG are going to keep line of sight long enough for it not to be a waste if you pull the trigger for an indirect fire shot. An LRM boat no longer has the option of switching targets until his shots have already hit, meaning you miss out on targets of opportunity (even moving off target for a quick single small laser shot at the scout who stood still for a moment two a few degrees to the left is enough to lose the lock and waste massive amounts of ammo). This also means you can't use the tactic of turning your torso to the side to avoid incoming damage, because if you twist or do anything other than look directly at them... the lock is lost. Even when you have a solid lock, you have to know when the angle is just wrong, it's not going to get high enough and indirect fire is just going to unload itself into a hillside uselessly, or if it's going to be timed right to chase a scout around the hillside in a curve.

So yeah... walking forward... see target... put target in crosshairs, maybe lead it a little bit... click button... know if you hit or miss instantly, walk back in cover... THAT is waaaay more fire and forget that spend 3 seconds getting a lock and maintaining it on a changing battlefield for as many as 15 seconds after you fire (yes I have counted, that's how roughly how long it takes LRMs to reach a target at max range, it's common to see them in the air for 12 seconds at 800-900ish range, min range, or around 200 takes 3 seconds from launch to impact). Sure it's free damage if your foe is stupid or distracted and just stands out in the open... but it is by no means lacking in skill or work to use LRM's well nowdays.

also it takes about 3 seconds to lose a lock... if you have line of slight, it's lost instantly if you don't have LOS. If you don't have a spotter and fire on a Gausspult at 1000 ranger... he can shoot at you almost 4 times before your first volley hits, unless you duck under cover and just let your attack be wasted. You can spot them first, fire first and easily be cored before your attack lands... oh and it gives them a warning your shot is coming now.

Edited by Kreisel, 23 November 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

there is only 1 reason why the gauss should not have heat proportional to what it does in damage, exactly like the AC20

TT

give the gauss the same relative heat, or up the recycle time heavily.

in terms of video game balance its a disaster - and the gauss needs a governing balancing factor that does not involve it becoming a glass canon that shatters once armour is gone.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 23 November 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[Tarskin]

I don't have any problems with Gaus/UAC's and what not, I would like the energy weapons to build less heat however as currently the damage per ton ratio of ballistics is very very ****** for all energy weapons if you include enough heatsinks to make weapons heat neutral.