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An Idea: Ballistics, Armor And Physics


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#1 Nephero

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:01 PM

Perhaps we are looking at this issue on weapon fixes all wrong. It seems whenever there is an imbalance in the game, the one thing we run to for a solution is Buffs and Nerfs. I think the solution lies in the physics.

Its not ballistic weapons fault that things are the way they are. They fire fast and hit hard, as we know projectile weapons to do. But I don't think we give enough thought to the Armor which is supposed to be designed to withstand punishment from ballistics as this is what armor is for. Armor itself in this game lacks characteristics that would make the relationship between its design as a defense barrier and the punishment it can withstand totally ignorable. When armor is hit, it takes maximum damage from that weapon...and that is the problem.

Perhaps instead of changing the characteristics of ballistics, change the behavior of the armor instead. Armor is supposed to be tough so it would serve it right that ballistics should have a percentage of its damage mitigated by hitting undamaged armor by a percent (say 40%), and to add a ricochet effect for those round that out of a separate percentage, ( say 10% for an A/C 20), do no damage at all and ricochet. This can be based on armor points so the heavier the mech, the more legit punishment its armor can withstand. But this would seem slightly unbalanced... but there is more.

Energy weapons would be the variable to the math above because as lasers are designed (low firing rate, generate heat etc.) they can melt through armor unconditionally, weakening its integrity. So maintain that lasers fire slow, need to recharge and don't have the same damage output as ballistics because they can produce max damage despite any amount of armor. As armor is damaged from energy weapons, it increases the percentage that ballistics hit (decrease in ricochet effect) and increase the chance to produce max damage per round ( increase toward max damage potential of that weapons system).

This change in behavior would cause smaller ballistic weapons to behave as they should toward different amounts of armor. Against Assault mechs and heavies, an A/C 2 or 5 would ricochet a lot more against untouched armor. You can sling a lot more rounds with those weapons but your damage output would be lower the larger the mech. Effective against smaller mechs (if you hit them, they still have speed) but to do max damage you would have to use the variety of energy weapons to weaken armor enough to achieve maximum damage and not ricochet.

Adding this characteristic to armor vs nerfing and buffing ballistics means that pure ballistic type mechs would serve a more specialized role. A pure ballistic mech would have to live with seeing its 4x A/C 5's or 2's bounce and ping off armor that isn't damaged enough, and would force him to balance his mech with energy weapons, or play a support role where his team mates would use what energy weapons they have to make his ballistics more effective.

I wrote as clear as I could tying not to drown the reader in text. Mybad if you don't read it all but I think there is some good value to my idea none the less.

#2 Doomstryke

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:25 PM

This sounds almost like Armored Core where you had shields but instead you could have differen't types of armor availble some better suited towards energy weapons others towards balistics. I think that would almost be easier to pull off then the hybrid ish armor idea your going with (though I agree with it, just think it would be to complicated for them to implement)

#3 Nephero

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:03 PM

Not necessarily hybrid persay, but make it so that using only one type of weapon renders your combat ability only so effective, and using a mixture of weapons maximizes it. By using lasers for base damage and ballistics for high dps or for that big punch needed, you have to use both weapons in tandem. All can be implemented by using percentages. If Im in the beginning of a match and someone hits me with 4 A/C 5, it should take more time to do damage when Im at full armor than when Im at half armor from taking damage from other weapons. IJS.

#4 RainzStorm

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:27 PM

I agree with you...
this game lack of armor type...
Tons of steels is your only protection...

#5 Deadoon

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:20 PM

View PostRainzStorm, on 22 November 2012 - 06:27 PM, said:

I agree with you...
this game lack of armor type...
Tons of steels is your only protection...

The only armors available at this time are ferro-fibrous and standard, they are both ablative armors that are far superior to any modern armors or materials due to their ability to block immensely large shells, rockets and lasers with minimal effort for their weight.

Seriously, reactive armor and reflective(anti ballistic and anti energy armors) are not available yet and almost nobody would use them unless they are using a specialist mech.

Also HE shells rarely will bounce without exploding, the explosion is what matters here due to the nature of the armor, not the ap effects other than the Gauss rifle, which moves so quickly and has so much mass even a ricochet will do significant damage.

Edited by Deadoon, 22 November 2012 - 08:23 PM.


#6 xXDivoXx

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

Not Cannon Herecy! Burn in Hell.....................we should not have a World of Tanks here

#7 EndoDrake 263

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 04:39 AM

The problem with your physics-oriented idea (which isn't bad in and of itself) is that - well. The armor your thinking of is pretty much intended to deflect the force of the attack away, but the 'standard' armour in Battletech is actually ablative armor. It's not designed to withstand damage, per say - it's instead intended to crumble, shatter or vaporize as appropriate in a way that takes the maximum amount of energy out of the attack (ablate) The 'points' of armour on a given body part are literally the 'abstract' amount of damage the armor can take before it's all gone.

More 'conventionall armor does exist in tabletop BattleTech - it's called 'primitive armor'. http://www.sarna.net...Primitive_Armor Essentially, it works only up to a certain point - any attack that deals more than ten points of damage (BAR 10, http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BAR ) - will risk inflicting a critical hit even if armor integrity isn't entirely breached.

There're also several different types of 'advanced' armor http://www.sarna.net.../Category:Armor that might see implementation at some point - in particular the Laser Reflective and Reactive types of armor. Each increases a Mech's resistance to a certain type of weapon while having its own set of drawbacks.

#8 Strum Wealh

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:05 AM

From roughly one year ago...

View PostStrum Wealh, on 06 December 2011 - 08:21 AM, said:

The thing about that is that a lot of the advanced armors come into being later in the canon timeline:
Armored Components - developed by the Free Worlds League in 3059-3061
Ferro-Lamellor Armor - developed by Clan Snow Raven in 3070
Heavy FF Armor - developed by the Lyran Alliance in 3069
Laser Reflective/"Glazed"/"Reflec" Armor - developed by the Lyran Alliance in 3058 (copied by Clan Jade Falcon in 3061)
Light FF Armor - developed by the Free Worlds League in 3067
Reactive/"Blazer" Armor - developed by the Draconis Combine in 3063 (copied by Clan Ghost Bear in 3065)
Stealth Armor - developed by the Capellan Confederation in 3063

The armor types that were developed prior to the game's start point are:
Ferro-Fibrous Armor - reintroduced to the IS by the Draconis Combine in 3040 (the Clans never lost the FF tech from 2571)
Hardened Armor - developed by the Federated Commonwealth in 3045-3047 (copied by Clan Ghost Bear during the invasion)
Primitive Armor - the original BattleMech armor used on the Mackie in 2439; essentially modern (non-Chobham) tank armor
Standard Armor - developed by the Terran Hegemony in 2470; maintained by IS and Clans since

Then there're the Commercial- and Industrial-grade armors...

Depending on how closely the Devs stick to the canon timeline, fancy armors are not going to be around for a while.

IMO, most armor types work similarly to modern Chobham armor while Commercial/Industrial and Primitive Armors are more similar to what is known as "Rolled Homogeneous Armor".

Interestingly, there is a PGI-hosted "MechWarrior/BattleTech Lexicon" that includes Standard, Ferro-Fibrous, Ferro-Lamellor, Reflective, and Reactive armors under its "armor types" category. :ph34r:

Also, this thread and this thread might prove interesting to the OP... :wub:





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