55 replies to this topic

[hashinshin]

Bluten, on 22 November 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Your thread is too late. AC 20 got nicely buffed, twice. Rest still got a very nice ammo boost. The Ultra now auto-unjams. ACs are actually good now. I have trouble picking one out. Since the scatter change I like the LBX for close encounters but when I want distance, the 5, Ultra, and 10, are all now good choices too.

I like all of them except the 2 but that's mainly an issue of range. You need to be in the 1-2k meter area for the AC 2 to be worth anything, and you'll never be so far away while still able to hit a target... assuming you can see them at all. The maps are tiny, and they offer extreme amounts of cover. Enemies can easily keep you blocked until they reach you, after which they will start shooting you with much better guns that kill you much faster. Even at Caustic if you camp the base and shoot enemies out in the open you won't need the range this gun features. It sacrifices damage for excess range. If the AC 2 did get a damage boost, then people would just use 2-3 up front and spam them; which isn't their intended purpose. The issue is that it's a sniper's gun for what is largely not a sniper's game. At the ranges currently provided by the maps as a whole and from most fights I've seen, you rarely need a gun past 1,000-1,300 meters unless its missiles that can fly over terrain. ERPPC may have a shorter range... but it hits significantly harder and you don't need that extra range.(It doesn't benefit you anything) There's also travel time contraints with any projectile at max ranges. You'd have to be an AC 2 grand champion to hit anything with this thing at 1500-2k. The upside is that you get lots of ammo... so pewpewpew if that suits you.

except the math actually in this very thread proves what I said in that gauss still out damages AC20 by a long shot, and that's not even including the fact that (again) it's easier to hit with, and has more range.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

hashinshin, on 22 November 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

except the math actually in this very thread proves what I said in that gauss still out damages AC20 by a long shot, and that's not even including the fact that (again) it's easier to hit with, and has more range.

No it doesn't. Let me fix it for you.
AC 20 = 20 x 14 damage= 280(16 tons)
Gauss=15 x 10 damage=150(16 tons)
There's equal weight, but notice that the top gun is almost twice as high. Want to try again?
17 tons:
20 x 21=420
15 x 20=300
Nope. Again, perhaps?
18 tons:
20 x 28=560
15 x 30=450.
Nope. The Gauss with a laser does equal up to the AC 20, but where am I going to put it? We don't have limitless Energy hardpoints. You're "just add a laser" argument is moot.

What else were you saying? Oh? That heat and range? Well I'm in your face, what exactly does the range matter? I'm obviously ignoring the heat and range here... but that's why there's the Gauss. Point is that for a <270 meter fight, AC 20 wins. Your point is that the Gauss is always the winner, which is no longer the case. GL trying to match the burst of an AC 20 user that is in your face if you're concluding the Gauss is always better. I personally like my AC 20 after the buffs its gotten and with double heat sinks the heat issue is pretty much non-existent now. My Hunchback, with an AC 20 and 2 Medium Lasers, has a 1.35 efficiency rating. I pretty much fire this thing(And the lasers) non-stop until I run out of boulders in the ammo boxes. Switching to an AC would only get range I don't want and less heat that I don't need. If I followed you, I'd nerf my Mechs close range brawling. No thanks.

Edited by Bluten, 22 November 2012 - 09:38 PM.

[hashinshin]

you should get in to politcs bluten. You just rambled for about 5 minutes there and never once addressed the entire point of why gauss is so much better than ACs. In fact, you defiantly ignored it.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Actually AC/20 nor GR is winner.Winner is Jenner running through you and shooting from inside of you .

[JediShoki]

I agree that Guass is better in many situations. Range, sustained fire (due to low heat).

On an assault mech it is usually better as you have so many guns to heat you up that a "free" 15 damage when you are running hot is a great thing.

BUT there are builds which suit the AC20 or other AC Better. You half to remember that not all your shots will hit. No
Matter who you are. So AC2 gives you high rate of fire when you have 2 ballistic slots instead of just 1. This allows you to correct your shots and not suffer as much due to 1 vital missed shot. This approach why I have moved to chain firing lasers like on the hunch 4P (that and heat management).

Secondly. Take a hunch 4G. Two are energy hardpoints, 3 shoulder ballistic. And 1 single head laser (with only 1 critical slot meaning at most a medium laser). Unless you stack some LL or PPC on those arms you aren't really generating enough heat with those lasers and an AC20 for it to be worth downgrading to gauss. I pack a 250 engine on, double heat, 2 medium lasers and the AC 20. My role is SHORT range brawler. Moving about at around 90kph with speed tweak I use cover well and pick my fights moving in close and hitting hard CT or an important weapon. The hunch can not survive long in a sustained fight when fire is focused on him so having zero heat to worry about with gauss is less necessary than having maximum burst damage for hit and run strikes.

The important thing is I know my role on the team. I need gauss allies to lay down long range fire that keeps enemies occupied and behind cover so I can flank with a fast strike lance and capture/seek and destroy isolated slower mechs. This mech can never just run out into the lake on river city firing while advancing. Only in the late game will it join a brawl there after snipers have been dealt with or been drawn into the fray themselves.

I know this is just one specific example and I could choose to make it a sniper instead but that's my choice and gameplay style.

I'm not saying I always win, or making claims that it's the greatest build ever. But it is a focused build that has succeeded in it's role within the team often.

Comparing heat generated, fire rates, range and damage does not always translate on the battlefield. If everyone sat still and just fired away at each other then yes. Higher dps or longest sustained fire would always win. But there are variables and you have to move the fight into a situation where your mech and load out excels.

Also just adding lasers does not even out damage. If thy sit still, yes. But if you are attempting to core a centurion moving at 70kph you have a good chance of spreading that lasers damage over the mech. Where as the full 20 damage of the ac20 always hits one part of the mech per hit. It can be a factor sometimes.

[the huanglong]

Slowpoke here, they jam too often.

[Zuesacoatl]

Vagabond Nomad, on 22 November 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Completely agree. PGI needs to get table top purists out of their balancing team, and get people in there that are less interested in implementing purified canon, and more interested in making a "believable" weapons that have a practical purpose. Having a weapon that jams this frequently, in this high-tech universe is beyond re-tarded.

This is not a high-tech universe, most of the weapon systems you are using can not be replicated, the IS literally bombed themselves back to the stone age and are barely able to run the machines let alone recreate them. The advent of the GDMC has allowed the great houses to push some of the lostech out in this current setting, but it was not until the entry of the clans that the IS went into full tilt to bring the glory days of the SL back again.

I am not a purist of TT, though I would like it to be as close as possible, but the fact is, this is Mechwarrior, and in the world of Mechwarrior, though you have technology, it does not mean you know how it works other then pushing a button to make it go boom. UACs are part of that fact, it jams because of lack of knowledge of the weapons system, and it stays in the game because in the end, this is MECHWARRIOR, not COD

[KinLuu]

The AC20 is simply bad.
The AC10 is useable, but completely outclassed by Gauss and UAC5.
The AC5 is useable.
The AC2 is very good, if you can strap 3+ on your mech.
The UAC5 is very good.
The LBX10 is simply bad.
The Gauss is very good.

I consider only three ballistics to be worth putting on my mechs. The Gauss, the AC2 and the UAC5.
Now, the situation does not look much better for energy weapons, but I still believe that the ACs could use some love. Especially the LBX.

[WeekendWarrior]

hashinshin, on 22 November 2012 - 05:04 PM, said:

yes, yes it does diminish the ACs actually. It's in direct competition with the ACs for who gets picked and the gauss always wins. That's actually the entire problem.

Thats actually canon.
If you have the weight for it, the Gauss will beat all ACs except the Ultra AC20, which, coincidently, also weighs 15 tons.

Though the real fun and whining will start when the RAC5 comes...

[MustrumRidcully]

Well, there are ways to "nerf" the Ultra AC/5 without making it useless

I think one fundamental thing I'd personally ditch is the entire deal with the double shot mechanic. Forget that mechanic, and simply give the Ultra AC/5 a rate of fire that's twice of the AC/5. And then give it a jam chance and a jam duration that will balance the advantage (but you must also take into account that the UAC will consume more ammo, produce more heat, and and weighs more than the AC/5..)

Currently, PGI is doing both - give it a higher ROF and give it the Double Shot mechanic.

And regarding the Gauss Rifle - just lower its rate of fire. NO more "fragility" nerf or anything.

And for all the high energy weapons - give us real Double Heat Sinks that work the same inside and outside the engine. If you#re so worried about alpha-striking builds, give DHS only +1 to heat capacity instead of +2, but gie them 0.2/sec dissipation.


Or take a really high look at your weapon balance, like I did, and identify what you need to do.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 22 November 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Deadoon]

Just tried my uac builds that worked fairly well multiple times, and guess what, It was more damage efficient if I mounted 2 ac/2 in their place and replaced the rest of the weight with heat sinks as dead weight/compensation for extra heat gen.

This is an example of over nerfing a weapon, plain and simple. A uac is meant to jam, but the jam mechanism was broken as hell. When they fixed the jam mechanism they made them unjam to quickly(I made a post a long time ago about auto unjaming the uac, but even then I suggested a 5-10X rate of fire unjam timer to balance it). This made it so that it was able to be used without a macro from all hell to be able to utilize.

Heck give me an ultra mode off button and they would be useful, or make it so the jam is in the quick loading system, and not make it entirely useless when jammed.

Or return it to the old mechanics and make the heat generation 2 per shot with no jamming.

Really when you think about it the jamming mechanism now allows for another macro to be used, making it fire exactly 1 time every 1.2 second(to allow for lag in transmition) thus making it a boosted to hell ac/5.

Edited by Deadoon, 23 November 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Black Ivan]

Major problem is the heat system. Simply inreasing rate of while not increasing heat dissipation makes many weapons obsolete.

Lasers and PPCs aren't worth it now. Gauss and SSRMS are the best weapons due to their low heat and good hits.

[Orkhepaj]

Scratx, on 22 November 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

I recall seeing a dual uac5 and dual ac5 cataphract removing my catapult's full frontal armor in like 3 seconds. I beg to differ.

maybe put on some armor next time cause it is impossible

[Deadoon]

Orkhepaj, on 23 November 2012 - 01:46 AM, said:

maybe put on some armor next time cause it is impossible

The uac/5 fires 2 rounds every ~1.1 seconds doing a total of 10 damage, for ease purposes, lets use 1.2 seconds as a base.

10 damage every 1.2 seconds is a dps of 8.33(in double shot mode of course)
The ac/5 has a dps of 2.94(5 every 1.7)
(2.94+8.33) *2(number of each) * 3 (number of seconds) is a total of 67.64 he is not bullshitting you, those 34 TONS of guns will rip through an entire 2 tons of armor in 3 seconds.


Note, all of the above is based on the maximum capability of the weapon system, not the realistically expected capability(1 uac down at a time down drops that down to ~42 damage).

Edited by Deadoon, 23 November 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[John Norad]

Quincy80, on 22 November 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

John do you know the chance to jam in MWO. I'll give you a hit it's a lot higher than 2.8%.

Dude, he was blaming TT purists for it. Learn to read properly, damn it.
Yes I know the chance. It's not the same as in the TT. That was my whole point.

JudgeDeathCZ, on 22 November 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

yes and in TT u cant unjam UAC....which make them useless in MWO

I was replying to someone blaming 'TT purists'.
I was not stating that TT values would be the best solution in this case.

I will also point out that you're obviously unable to read and understand before posting.

Edited by John Norad, 23 November 2012 - 03:09 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

their weapon balance doesn't actually suck so bad except the gauss rifle.

but the boating balance of weapons...well, that does indeed suck.