55 replies to this topic

[ConnorSinclair]

Just fought a match made up entirely of Catapults.

We had teamwork, there was cohesion, there was decent builds, there was skill.

They face rolled us.

I was the only one with a kill on my minmax Atlas with a lucky alpha, we were in a nice broad formation in cover. They were walking around in the open on caustic in the valley.

You'd have thought this mech was designed by Kerensky himself. The catapult outperforms every mech in every role, even mechs designed entirely around a specific role.

I should never question a close range fight with a k2 in slug match. But good lord, 2 AC20s? That just turns my stomach. The armor, the weight, the critical slots, the wide variety of chassis, It's unreasonable.

I kept quiet with what they did to SRMs, UAC5, when they failed to make proper meta with the LRM. I still believe LRMs do not deserve indirect fire at the damage they have.

The way things are it's like PGI has never played a mechwarrior game and I'm probably not wrong with that assertion.

[Bhael Fire]

I'm really not sure what all this uproar about catapults is about. I pilot a K2 gauss, as well as a variety of other mechs. While my K2 is awesome at long-mid range...it's just too damn slow and fragile in a close range fight. I just do not see it having any all-encompassing advantage that people keep clambering about. Yes, it's a really nice mech...but its weaknesses leave plenty of reason for a pilot to choose another mech over it depending on their style of play.

Out of curiosity, what are you primarily piloting when you get annihilated by these cats?

[Kobura]

Against AC40/Gausscats I've unsuccessfully piloted:
Commando
Jenner
Hunchback
Centurion
Catapult (I do not and have never owned a K2)
Atlas

Many different designs, as I am a tinkerer and not necessarily a minmaxer, many different roles and intents.

The best fighters were the Cats, all except the A1 which was only very effective with Streaks against lighter frames. The mobility, narrow torso profile, high top speed, all combine to make it unfortunately terrifying in a fight with.

That's let alone the bastardization that I see inflicted on the K2 (the owners of which very frequently top out the board in damage/kills)

[Alex Wolfe]

Bhael Fire, on 23 November 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

I'm really not sure what all this uproar about catapults is about.

Utterly broken hitboxes (near-nonexistant side torsos) and 280 degree torso range of motion, which only Catapult has.

The mech already has amazing hardpoints and JJ capability going for it. Hitboxes need to be fixed, and the twist brought in line with other mechs (if not made Centurion/Commando-like) if other mechs are to compete with it. As it stands, Catapult is amazing fire support (rightfully so), great brawler (what?), missile boat (supposed to be), heavy ballistic boat (NOT supposed to be). It's a top-heavy, sluggish support mech. There's no justification for it having 140 twist to each side, while even Raven for example (a dedicated, light scout/EW platform) only has 120.

It has its cake and eats it. I've been using Catapults often and enjoying them in MW4 and MW4M, but came to hate it in MWO. Too much of a good thing.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 23 November 2012 - 10:55 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Just because it's a versatile mech doesn't mean it can have all those things on a single build.

A guass cat, for example, is freakishly slow and often takes a performance hit on armor making it useless at close range compared to other heavy mechs.

Because of its weight, the amount of JJ's required to make it agile in a close fight pretty much renders it ineffectual payload-wise.

The point being, yes it's a versatile mech, but not without a price.

[Volthorne]

Alex Wolfe, on 23 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Utterly broken hitboxes

Oh, you mean the obnoxiously large CT and cockpit? Yeah, sure, keep complaining about the L/R Torsos when you can headcap a Catapult quite literally 1000% easier than any other 'Mech.

[Parnage Winters]

I ran into a match full of cataphracts of various loudouts. How is that different? While you can argue the ability of twin ac20''s or gauss on the k2 to blame defeat on the catapult is kinda hilarious. To then claim the past mechwarrior games had much if any semblance of balance is not only willfully ignorant but downright silly. I don't think we need to bring up the "amazing" balance of three and four.

The tabletop can not be the end all be all dogma in a game like mechwarrior. It doesn't work well. You don't have a problem with the catapult. You have a problem with the hardpoint system from what it sounds like. The catapult can be many things, so can any mech with enough c-bills. I've seen LRM hunchbacks, Awesomes that can break 80kph and want to brawl with you and atlas sniper platforms. You see some crazy builds in this game, some of them like the twin ac20 cat frighteningly effective.

Edited by Parnage, 23 November 2012 - 11:19 PM.

[ConnorSinclair]

Parnage, on 23 November 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

I ran into a match full of cataphracts of various loudouts. How is that different? While you can argue the ability of twin ac20''s or gauss on the k2 to blame defeat on the catapult is kinda hilarious. To then claim the past mechwarrior games had much if any semblance of balance is not only willfully ignorant but downright silly. I don't think we need to bring up the "amazing" balance of three and four.

The tabletop can not be the end all be all dogma in a game like mechwarrior. It doesn't work well. You don't have a problem with the catapult. You have a problem with the hardpoint system from what it sounds like. The catapult can be many things, so can any mech with enough c-bills. I've seen LRM hunchbacks, Awesomes that can break 80kph and want to brawl with you and atlas sniper platforms. You see some crazy builds in this game, some of them like the twin ac20 cat frighteningly effective.

Heres a run down

Basic atlas

AC20
2 Llas
2 mlas
2 SRM6

78 damage with gauranteed overheat in alpha, you're wide, slow and your dps is in your chest

K2 AC20 brawler

40 DPS, pinpoint accuracy, good recycle, great range of motion, no fear of overheat after repeated alpha.

11/10 - Odds are with this K2

Then you've got your streak cats and this just goes without saying.

As for complaining about table top, WHO BROUGHT UP TABLE TOP?

I BROUGHT UP MECHWARRIOR and although MW4 had its share of problems, Never would I imagine a 65 ton mech outperforming heavy and lighter chassis in their specified roles. This isn't rocket science, this is common sense, the kind of complaint some one would have in a shooter if a handgun was outperforming machineguns and assault rifles in their roles. And like I said the major fixes for the cata would be adjusting the chassis itself, many of the suggestions here have been insightful.

Also whats with the sniping comment about the Cataphract? Cataphract has been a breathe of fresh air on MWO, I hate fighting them but they aren't at all so bad. I just think Catapults hate fighting them because they carry enough AC5/2's to give even an Atlas Parkinsons at any range.

[DeadlyNerd]

I think you're bashing the wrong variant of the CAT. While the gauss or AC20 CAT may be a killer option to assaults, you still need to aim with it. You don't go charging one of those 2 loadouts straight on cause you'll get punished for that, with a good reason.
I have little to no problem in killing the gauss nabs, it's the "aimbot" streak boats that are annoying as maps are still too small for it to become ineffective on some.

[Thorn Hallis]

Wait a second...how can a match made up entirely of Catapults when you were running an Atlas?

[ConnorSinclair]

Thorn Hallis, on 24 November 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

Wait a second...how can a match made up entirely of Catapults when you were running an Atlas?

No idea, but we had a hunch and some phracts and they had none.

DeadlyNerd, on 24 November 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

I think you're bashing the wrong variant of the CAT. While the gauss or AC20 CAT may be a killer option to assaults, you still need to aim with it. You don't go charging one of those 2 loadouts straight on cause you'll get punished for that, with a good reason.

I'm an Atlas designed by Alexander Kerensky himself, I'm covered in armor and carry a frightening array of weapons for point blank urban slug matches. I'm the minotaur in the maze.

You are a fire support mech, a man with a bow and arrow, I'm a knight with a flail.

there is no reason your 65'er modified for some close range support should beat my dedicated 100 ton berserker with a claymore. The idea of the K2 was to give the cata some more options for logistic reasons and probably for flavor, not so that it could challenge 100 ton close range war horses.

I wouldn't be miffed if this was a Bushwacker with an AC10, blowing my rear armor out thanks to its ECM and some quick piloting.

No, its a Catapult, winning a faceroll against a mech that was designed for that sort of thing.

[Alex Wolfe]

Bhael Fire, on 23 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Just because it's a versatile mech doesn't mean it can have all those things on a single build.

Streak A1 with endo, DHS, XL315. About 75 kph speed, jump jets, breaks other mechs in half (not just lights). Try it, it's fun (for one person).

Bhael Fire, on 23 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

A guass cat, for example, is freakishly slow and often takes a performance hit on armor making it useless at close range compared to other heavy mechs.

I could make a guass cat run 64 kph (average for a mech that size, not "freakishly slow"), with 60 rounds of ammo and nearly max armor before endo-steel. I imagine I could squeeze about 70 kph at least + speed tweak out of it now, with added agility from a bigger engine. You're wrong.

Bhael Fire, on 23 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Because of its weight, the amount of JJ's required to make it agile in a close fight pretty much renders it ineffectual payload-wise.

Amount of jump jets doesn't affect their performance, one makes it as agile as 10. You're mistaken. Besides, a Catapult is "agile in close fight" out of the box, due to its Exorcist-like torso twist that no other mech has.

Quote

The point being, yes it's a versatile mech, but not without a price.

Refuted above. The "price" is a lie .

Volthorne, on 23 November 2012 - 11:18 PM, said:

Oh, you mean the obnoxiously large CT and cockpit? Yeah, sure, keep complaining about the L/R Torsos when you can headcap a Catapult quite literally 1000% easier than any other 'Mech.

The cockpit was made smaller, along with Awesome's cockpit. The big CT is little consolation. It's easy to hit CT on pretty much anything that isn't lagshielded. Chewing throught Catapult's CT means trading blows, and it just isn't an option for most mechs, and that's what you're saddled with because of broken sides and the torso twist capability letting it look at you pretty much all the time. It's same with an Atlas - CT is easy to shoot, but the worst target unless you have your whole team with you.

The fact that you can run an obvious XL engine for "free" and not worry about it being blown up only compounds the issue.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 24 November 2012 - 06:46 AM.

[Kobura]

Bhael Fire, on 23 November 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Just because it's a versatile mech doesn't mean it can have all those things on a single build.

A guass cat, for example, is freakishly slow and often takes a performance hit on armor making it useless at close range compared to other heavy mechs.

Because of its weight, the amount of JJ's required to make it agile in a close fight pretty much renders it ineffectual payload-wise.

The point being, yes it's a versatile mech, but not without a price.

Gausscat doesn't need to sacrifice anything. I'm looking at an on-paper build of a gausscat with 416/422 armor, 60 gauss rounds (few, yes, but hang on) and an XL255.

Nothing sacrificed whatsoever. If I'm willing to skin the arms and nick the legs down to 41/60 armor for MAXIMUM PROFIT, I can fit an AMS with it's ton of ammo in, with 80 shots, or stick with 60 shots (keeping AMS and its ton) I can cram an XL285 in there.

If I forgo AMS as well, it can be an XL300.

For reference, when I used my 'TomCat', 4xML 1xLRM15 (C1), or my SuperTomCat (2xML, 1xLRM15 2xSSRM2) I was using a 315 engine without modifications/tweaks and moving at 80.

And before you complain about maximum damage output from 60 shots of gauss, let's do the math. 15*60: 900 precision damage. That is enough to kill (again for hypothetical reference) five full-to-the-front armored 100-ton battlemechs who otherwise have naught a scratch on them. You could theoretically kill a whole enemy team with that much payload, and yes I've used the Gauss, even with my reputedly poor framerate I could land hits probably 80% of the time when I wasn't ******** and in the middle of combat (and going 75 there's no reason a gausscat should be in the middle of combat)

A note about balancing this by the cost of repairing the XL engine will induce 'wallet warrior' comments about Founders' (and keep in mind I didn't get that gold shield under my profile name for good behavior) since that's immaterial to the in-game reality of getting 100% dominance-danced by a double-gaussing K2 who's "weakness" XL engine you can't take advantage of due to microscopic side torsos.

[Zabadoo]

I almost laugh at what the issue is. I see the influx of streakapult to be alarming. They shoot insanely fast and do the damage of a gauseapult. And can jump. Try killing that Mexican jumping bean.

[Cybercobra]

ok im gonna give my opinion here. from what ive seen in all my time in this beta. according to you guys EVERYTHING that isnt a standard loadout is OP. and i do mean EVERYTHING. it could be quad machine guns on the cataphract and you guys will still call it OP becouse it desimated you when your armor was gone. hunchies are OP. cats are OP. jenners are OP. long range is OP. short range is OP. this gun is OP. this gun is OP. this dohicky is OP. have you guys ever thought of the idea that becouse everything is OP. nothing is OP anymore?

[Alex Wolfe]

Cybercobra, on 24 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

[there are opinions on the internet]

Sometimes people are wrong, sometimes they are right. Think about it rationally for a second.

Catapult has 280 degrees torso twist. Other mechs have 180-240, including lighter (and supposedly more agile) ones.

XL engine is a big risk for mechs, except for the Catapult, because it has some of the hardest-to-hit side torsos in the game.

Now tell me what exactly is it that makes those two things alright. Especially for a mech that has excellent hardpoints, decent speed, and jump capabilities for most of its variants.

Seems to me like Catapult is the Holy Cow of MWO - untouchable balance-wise .

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 24 November 2012 - 11:48 AM.

[Kobura]

Cybercobra, on 24 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

ok im gonna give my opinion here. from what ive seen in all my time in this beta. according to you guys EVERYTHING that isnt a standard loadout is OP. and i do mean EVERYTHING. it could be quad machine guns on the cataphract and you guys will still call it OP becouse it desimated you when your armor was gone. hunchies are OP. cats are OP. jenners are OP. long range is OP. short range is OP. this gun is OP. this gun is OP. this dohicky is OP. have you guys ever thought of the idea that becouse everything is OP. nothing is OP anymore?

Actually you're forgetting the flamer. http://mwomercs.com/...with-artemisiv/

You're also forgetting the facts: https://docs.google....5QRHd5Wnc#gid=0

Are people justified in being shocked and awed by quadAC2? Yes, they are the second highest player-controlled DPS in the game bar none (LRMs don't count because other than some minor tricks, they will always miss X% of their output which is not factored into my numbers) and only losing to the AC20, and I'm glad they do.

I've never complained about any Hunchback, besides the fact that they're really difficult to excel with.

Catapults are a fast 65-ton jumping machine with narrow side torsos, making XL a foregone conclusion, and good hardpoints. Yes, they are performing well outside their deigned role at the moment.

Long range isn't OP, it's that Gauss does better DPS compared to the PPC, and has a tremendous damage-versus-charging-enemy-at-max-range (my Effective Damage While Closing) statistic.

SRMs do insane quantities of damage for their tonnage and critical obligation, but they are (generally) inaccurate beyond about half their listed range. AC20 is hugemongous, can't be mounted in an articulated arm, and precludes mounting an XL engine when in a torso... that gun is almost anti-balanced by design (fortunately the heat lessening helped, and its' ROF is good)

"this gun" is actually a glock 23, and is certainly not OP-- oh, you were just spouting, I thought you were actually saying something meaningful.

"this gun" again. 40cal is a wonderful cartridge, but it's balanced by the only middling capacity per magazine, as well as an only upper-average delivery of joules. If I had my wouldas, I'd have a sidearm in 7.62x54, but that is a silly place and we shall not go there. (yes I'm familiar with the Obrez, yes it's a silly place)

this dohicky is a razer naga epic thank you very much, and was balanced by its' purchase cost of lots-of-IRLbills.

[IceSerpent]

Cybercobra, on 24 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

have you guys ever thought of the idea that becouse everything is OP. nothing is OP anymore?

They can't - admitting that mech that just killed them isn't OP would lead to an obvious conclusion that they got killed because of their own mistakes (in other words, because of them just being baddies), and that is not a thought these folks are able (or willing?) to entertain.

[Fiachdubh]

Different mechs should have different torso twist restriction but being a long range mech would not think that the Cat would be designed which such an extensive twist capability but does not bother me.

More importantly Cats are one of the hardest mechs to kill, I am completely sure I have killed less of them then any other non light chassis. I have pounded away on their torso with AC20s, lasers and srms with little affect, in brawls Cats always take down my Hunchie and that was even before those ridiculous Streak Cats.

[Bhael Fire]

Alex Wolfe, on 24 November 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:

Refuted above. The "price" is a lie .

I admit my K2 is devastating at long range and pretty good at mid-range, but I get my *** tore up pretty good in any close-range fight. My top speed is 47.3 kph with standard structure and SHS. With FF armor, I can only fit about 302 points of my 422 max. I know that's not the most optimal build, but it's all I can afford right now (I'm spending all my money on getting to Master on my Jenners). I'll revisit my opinion on the cat once I start advancing its skill tree a little more (only have Basic unlocked for one variant now). But for now, my opinion (based on my experience piloting it and fighting others piloting it) is that it's not over-powered.