41 replies to this topic

[Ethan Kell]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Maybe. But I know I am going to die inside a little (or a lot) when I see Clanners focus firing a single mech instead of doing 1 vs 1 combat...

Yeah, but I'm sure you know well enough that the adherence to this honor system varied greatly as the war progressed.

If the developers really make this a part of the game I hope they're willing to modify it as the timeline progresses.

[Jenin]

This thread is relevant to my interests...

I have been pondering my position in this game for awhile now, with so much talk about clans, houses and units and such. My interest in Battletech/Mechwarrior came from the days of tabletop, up to some of the computer games, but I never got drawn into the lore quite as much as I did just the straight up tactics and combat of the mechs itself. I think, for the purpose of seating myself in this game, I will be suited best as a merc. I have no real allegiance, I just enjoy the teamwork, combat and winning.

[Sassori]

Lightfoot, on 05 May 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

How do you fight Clan-Tech? Salvage, the Black Market (PGI), and Mech-Lab. Just put together a cross-tech IS 'Mech. Clan 'mechs have low armor for higher speed mostly, but I am sure most Clan pilots will run to Mech-Lab and trade those big engines for MAX ARMOR! So cross-tech and "Mech-Lab will be the IS pilot's response. Of course all this requires C-Bills and battlefield hours. I am looking forward to it immensely!

You /do/ realize you can't just 'slap clan tech into an IS mech' right? They don't work that way, they aren't compatible. Hell they can't even really reverse engineer it to /be/ compatible otherwise the IS could have stepped up into the fight a /lot/ faster than they did.

Cross-tech isn't a realistic option. At best we'll have IS tech, aka lostech, which is good but still severely disadvantaged to Clan. Take the best IS ER PPC, 15 heat, 10 damage. Clan is 15 and 15. Eventually the Lyrans come up with the Heavy PPC, which is 15 heat, 15 damage, but lesser damage the further distant it is. A brawlers PPC if you will. Still not as good as Clan ER PPC.

If the IS could just swap over clan ER PPC, they /would have/. They can't. The technologies aren't the same and aren't compatible.

So no, the 'Mech-Lab' is not the IS pilot's response. They just don't have the tools.

[Lightfoot]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

You /do/ realize you can't just 'slap clan tech into an IS mech' right? They don't work that way, they aren't compatible. Hell they can't even really reverse engineer it to /be/ compatible otherwise the IS could have stepped up into the fight a /lot/ faster than they did.

Cross-tech isn't a realistic option. At best we'll have IS tech, aka lostech, which is good but still severely disadvantaged to Clan. Take the best IS ER PPC, 15 heat, 10 damage. Clan is 15 and 15. Eventually the Lyrans come up with the Heavy PPC, which is 15 heat, 15 damage, but lesser damage the further distant it is. A brawlers PPC if you will. Still not as good as Clan ER PPC.

If the IS could just swap over clan ER PPC, they /would have/. They can't. The technologies aren't the same and aren't compatible.

So no, the 'Mech-Lab' is not the IS pilot's response. They just don't have the tools.

I disagree, but I will not debate it further. No point anyway. However. It would be a major and total divergence from all previous MechWarrior games for Mech-Lab not to have the ability to swap a Clan for IS Gauss Rifle for example even if it comes at a premium cost. The ability wouldn't be in all previous games if it were outlawed by Battletech. FASA created this ability you know?

Also, they won't be able to balance IS and Clan without some limited Mech-Lab cross-tech modding since everyone will just join the Clans the instant they arrive. Look into my eye, you know this to be true!

Edited by Lightfoot, 05 May 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Steel Prophet]

Ethan Kell, on 05 May 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

I simply hope that there's a mutual understanding and acceptance. I don't want to feel persecuted against because I'm not a role player, and I certainly don't want to see role players persecuted against for whatever reason.

Mutual is the correct term in this case...

[Sassori]

Lightfoot, on 05 May 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

I disagree, but I will not debate it further. No point anyway. However. It would be a major and total divergence from all previous MechWarrior games for Mech-Lab not to have the ability to swap a Clan for IS Gauss Rifle for example even if it comes at a premium cost. The ability wouldn't be in all previous games if it were outlawed by Battletech. FASA created this ability you know?

Also, they won't be able to balance IS and Clan without some limited Mech-Lab cross-tech modding since everyone will just join the Clans the instant they arrive. Look into my eye, you know this to be true!

Disagree all you want, it's written. They are trying to stick to TT rules as close as they can, that's a TT rule.

As for limiting the Clans, that's not even true. Like I said, 3 lances vs 2 stars is fairly comparable. 3 Lances vs a Lance and 3 points (8 mechs) would be even closer imho.

For Clan vs Clan then of course you can do 3 star's vs 3 star's or whatnot.

When taking account Chassis as well you're dealing with hard points vs omni points, so the Clanners have a large advantage there as well... unless the Clanners were limited to published Variants only.

That'd be sweet. Another way to limit Clanners without giving clan tech to IS right there.

Anyways, back on topic of RP vs non-RP, when the game starts the RP community will be shunted to the side just like in every other online game really. RP'ers realize this, specially since there won't even be server sets. As for facing in game 'flack' over not being an RP'er? You're just going to have to take that as it comes, but playing a Clanner and not behaving like a Clanner? That /will/ upset some people. Know that going in.

[Absit invidia]

I just hope that the stars will align and people will be respectful. The last thing this game needs is a bunch of 12 year olds spouting the word ****** like a homophobic machine gun.
As far as the RP vs. nonRP goes i really cant have a opinion on it.

[Adridos]

Just calm down a little. I know this is one of the more arguing topics about the game, but if we want to disuss it, we have to be civilized (and because most of you are adults, you shouldn't have problems with that).

Noone is going to force anyone into reading books, or watch endless tutorials. That doesn't make sense from the modern game-designer point of view. You don't have to know why do factions want to kill each otehr, what they are fighting for, or how do mechs work.

The bits of lore making it into the game are going to be easily accepted, as they have their place and they are features to make the game better, not to give it more bookish feel. It's a win/win situation, because all the sides will be happy. Take the Clans, for example. Lore wise, they have to follow the rules, or they won't let them to the good stuff and they will be stuck with crappy mechs using IS technology. This will please all the sides, because RP'rs will get the same war they read about in books, players will have balanced matches against Clans and devs will have easy time making the game more interesting and balanced. Same goes for everything and I don't think anyone would ask what mech factory produced my mech in the heat of battle.

[Listless Nomad]

I don't have a problem with casual gamers. I don't have a problem with people who don't care about the lore and just want to blow stuff up. What I have a problem with are people that don't respect the IP.

It's the people that rant about shields, want gundam beam swords, or want invisibility power ups that I have a problem with. You don't have to care about the lore - but don't agitate to turn the game into something else. This is battletech not hawken.

[Lightfoot]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 09:50 AM, said:

Disagree all you want, it's written. They are trying to stick to TT rules as close as they can, that's a TT rule.

As for limiting the Clans, that's not even true. Like I said, 3 lances vs 2 stars is fairly comparable. 3 Lances vs a Lance and 3 points (8 mechs) would be even closer imho.

For Clan vs Clan then of course you can do 3 star's vs 3 star's or whatnot.

When taking account Chassis as well you're dealing with hard points vs omni points, so the Clanners have a large advantage there as well... unless the Clanners were limited to published Variants only.

That'd be sweet. Another way to limit Clanners without giving clan tech to IS right there.

Nah. In online gaming when you give one side overwhelming, powererful items, a Clan tech 'Mech in this case. That's the side everyone joins.

It doesn't matter that the IS get one more junky 'mech per match. Where are you going to get the pilots who like junky 'mechs?

Nope, been there, done that. MechWarrior league units with long time members, it made no difference. Everyone joins the side with the mostess until the junky faction is vacant of players. If there is no way for an IS 'mech to go toe to toe with a Clan 'mech of the same weight, there will be no IS faction for the Clan to play against. The speed that this transition occurs with will take everyone by complete suprise. Even faster in an MMO where players have less patience due to the need to grind XP/items.

I say, 'look into my eye' because I have seen the above scenario play out in multiple online games. MMO's, MechWarrior 4 Leagues, it made no difference. The faction with the obviously elite items is where everyone will go.

I am not going to derail the thread further. Say it isn't so. Say it won't happen again, not here. But it always happens. Everytime. They will have to figure some way for IS tech to equal Clan tech other than added numbers of junky 'mechs on the field of play. That's not TT, but TT is not an MMO that needs to keep every player it can, happily grinding.

GL&GH

[Sassori]

Sure, except for those of us who don't want to play the Clans and won't, and when we get matches instantaneously 12 vs 10 or 8 or whatever, and the popular clanners have long queues to get a single match in...

It'll work out. Or the Clans will destroy themselves with in fighting.

The great thing about a multi-faction system is that the underdogs get more games.

[JP Josh]

i always found the fun in piloting my mech against a opponent in the same mech so it came down to our play stiles tactics and skill in handling our mech. then again its always fun to be a dinky scout and butt rape a lone atlas newb player from behind.

for me facing the other pilots will be the joy not the explosions or winning.

[Hyperion Adama]

I have to agree with lightfoot. Using the MW4 Mercs configs and designs (pre mektek)

The Ryoken was one of the uiltimate medium mechs and the Cougar was a light mech without compare. The MW4 merc setup of a Ryoken could bring Assault class firepower in a Medium frame. Granted you had shittons of heat problems but if you were taking out anything under 80 tons in one or two salvos it didnt matter too much. The Cougar properly equipped could hold its own against a lot of things. Up to about 60 tons.

The Madcat/timberwolf is the symbol of Mechwarrior for a reason. Its one of the most iconic designs and it is one of the craziest of the heavy mechs in terms of what it can do. Clan tech is an overwhelming advantage if you take their most known mechs into account. IS mechs do have some advantages but not many. Lightfoot is right on how big a concern this SHOULD be.

[Evgeny Bear]

why is this a clan against IS discussion again?

[Hyperion Adama]

Andar: The debate started off as clan units enforcing clan rulesets. This sparked off a chain debate that began to spiral into this. The possiblity for factional imbalance can shatter units who are steeped in Roleplay.

[Saren21]

Christopher Dayson, on 05 May 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

The great thing about a multi-faction system is that the underdogs get more games.

Yeah I think your right.

If its any thing like some "other" MMOs i have played most underdog factions get alot more game play. One thing i have found is alot of the players on the underdog faction go from the faction who gets smacked down all the time to the faction that is a pain to deal with beucase there mechwarriors know the "tricks of the trade" they become experts at the maps and hit and run tactics. why? becuase over time they get more play time then the guys who are stuck waiting in que for 30mins becuase there faction numbers are so damn high.

[Evgeny Bear]

but the thread creator was about to say that he want more non-roleplay support of simple gameplay...
and game wont start with clan invasion and is not even finished now, I think there are enough hypothetical "clan vs IS" threads.

but maybe I missunderstand something here

Edited by Andar89, 05 May 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Sassori]

Hyperion Adama, on 05 May 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

I have to agree with lightfoot. Using the MW4 Mercs configs and designs (pre mektek)

The Ryoken was one of the uiltimate medium mechs and the Cougar was a light mech without compare. The MW4 merc setup of a Ryoken could bring Assault class firepower in a Medium frame. Granted you had shittons of heat problems but if you were taking out anything under 80 tons in one or two salvos it didnt matter too much. The Cougar properly equipped could hold its own against a lot of things. Up to about 60 tons.

The Madcat/timberwolf is the symbol of Mechwarrior for a reason. Its one of the most iconic designs and it is one of the craziest of the heavy mechs in terms of what it can do. Clan tech is an overwhelming advantage if you take their most known mechs into account. IS mechs do have some advantages but not many. Lightfoot is right on how big a concern this SHOULD be.

Nobody is saying that the Clans don't have a tech advantage. They have a /MAJOR/ tech advantage. That doesn't mean that IS should have access to tech gear. It means you balance them in other ways, of which there is a plethora of options.

And yes, this did branch out from RP vs non-RP, I'm just glad that the IS, likely to have more RP'ers ratio per capita since the min-max munchkins will roll Clan.

[Lightfoot]

I'm fairly certain Clan vs Clan matches will be common.

Just remember, MWO is an MMO where you spend many hours grinding for wins. Wins=XP=items=less GRIND-ing hours. If Clan tech is vastly better at this, it sets in motion a game dynamic sort of like Titanic meets Iceberg. There may be a way around it, like IS tech earns double XP and items if they do manage to win, but the lure of kill counts and glory and OP'ness usually win out over handicapping in MMO's. And it did in MechWarrior 4 leagues as well, players who were long-time RP'ers joined the factions that offered the most. So don't think the Clanners will be an all newbie faction. They will be a very competitive bunch of the best pilots.

And to the OP's question. In spite of all the RP debating on the forums MechWarrior is a casual-player friendly game. You find a team, pilot the 'mech, battle some other 'mechs. Simple as that, if that is all you want, but of course MechWarrior has great depth for those who want to delve deeper.

Edited by Lightfoot, 05 May 2012 - 12:09 PM.

[Saren21]

I think of my self as a casual player now. I am not super hardcore i know enought battle tech lore to get by but by no meens am i some expert on the subject matter. That being said there are alot of the hard core guys on thise forums.

In this community I find alot of guys are very willing to explane things about lore or game mechanics now i will admit, most will not hold your hand but they will help you out and tell you were they found this info or came about getting it . Most people here are friendly and are not trolls.

I asked an advanced member here about a Raven i quickly found out how fast it could go, what kind of equipment it could possably carry and ideas on how it could be used in combat the guy was very cool about it.

I just think alot of the hardcore guys may not realize that in there hurry to correct some miss infomashion they can spark alittle bit of.. anger and show arrogance becuase they may not always do it tacfully. ( but i guess thats just the internet) I honestly think most folks just want to help or don't know how to ask for it.