63 replies to this topic

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 November 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

That's simply not true. Nobody complains about SRM6x6 A1s because, while powerful, they have to sacrifice something for that power, generally heat efficiency, and they're generally not moving too fast. The 6xstreak build simply does too much damage too fast for a mech that only has 9 tons of weapons equipped. To put that into perspective, and single UAC5 weighs 9 tons, and while it's a decent gun, it doesn't have the ridiculously fast kill rate that 9 tons of streaks do.

There isn't a simple solution, but if you nerf 6*ssrm-2's until they are balanced, then you have nerfed 2*ssrm-2's until they aren't all that useful. They either need to look at the chassis, or look at how the rules for hardpoints work. Nerfing the weapon is the easier solution though, so that is what's happening.

[Lefty Lucy]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 24 November 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

There isn't a simple solution, but if you nerf 6*ssrm-2's until they are balanced, then you have nerfed 2*ssrm-2's until they aren't all that useful. They either need to look at the chassis, or look at how the rules for hardpoints work. Nerfing the weapon is the easier solution though, so that is what's happening.

9 tons of one weapon system should be about as useful as 9 tons of a different weapon system.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Lefty Lucy, on 24 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

9 tons of one weapon system should be about as useful as 9 tons of a different weapon system.

I don't think it scales in a linear relationship though. Three medium lasers are more than three times as useful as one medium laser, and six streaks are more than six times more useful than one streak. So it's complicated, and I think the nerf bat needs to be used with care. Like a nerf scalpel instead of a bat, or a nerf sniper rifle.

Edited by Warrax the Chaos Warrior, 24 November 2012 - 05:25 PM.

[ollo]

I'd say reduce shake and maybe increase cooloff time al ittle.

[Asmosis]

Diablobo, on 24 November 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

There are way too many close-fighting areas in the maps to make "stay at 270+ meters" a decent answer. It is a lazy answer that doesn't address the issue. I personally don't have too much trouble with them, but I try not to play slow mechs that can't disengage or use cover.

If your a light mech (the most vocal complainers) then its pretty easy regardless of the map. Unless they like, sneak up on you or something which only demonstrates a lack of awareness on your part.

Lefty Lucy, on 24 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

9 tons of one weapon system should be about as useful as 9 tons of a different weapon system.

9 tons of ML's beats 9 tons of ssrms in a duel. 9 tons of SML's beats 9 tons of ssrms in a duel. 9 tons of machine guns (after the buff) will beat 9 tons of ssrms. Also if all weapons where equal in all areas (heat, dps, weight) there would be no point in choosing weapons you just slap anything on and be effective.

Edited by Asmosis, 24 November 2012 - 05:33 PM.

[Lefty Lucy]

Asmosis, on 24 November 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

If your a light mech (the most vocal complainers) then its pretty easy regardless of the map. Unless they like, sneak up on you or something which only demonstrates a lack of awareness on your part.



9 tons of ML's beats 9 tons of ssrms in a duel. 9 tons of SML's beats 9 tons of ssrms in a duel. 9 tons of machine guns (after the buff) will beat 9 tons of ssrms. Also if all weapons where equal in all areas (heat, dps, weight) there would be no point in choosing weapons you just slap anything on and be effective.

9 tons of MLs will overheat you before you kill the cat, and if you do manage to alpha the ear off, you have godlike aim, or the cat was simply not moving enough.

I didn't claim that weapons should be "equal in all areas" but that weapons should have reasons to exist. If a weapon does big damage, it can be offset by weighing a lot, having long recycle time, producing a lot of heat, etc. Take the ML for example. It doesn't weigh a lot, and does OK damage, but these factors are offset by lack of range and heat inefficiency.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Asmosis, on 24 November 2012 - 05:30 PM, said:

9 tons of ML's beats 9 tons of ssrms in a duel. 9 tons of SML's beats 9 tons of ssrms in a duel. 9 tons of machine guns (after the buff) will beat 9 tons of ssrms. Also if all weapons where equal in all areas (heat, dps, weight) there would be no point in choosing weapons you just slap anything on and be effective.

Only one mech can mount 9 tons of medium laser; that mech has to carefully aim, and it needs a whole lot more heat sinks than you need ammo, so it is a lot more than a 9 ton system. Absolutely nothing in the game right now can mount 9 tons of small laser or machine gun, and those are also still things that have to be aimed. The only thing I can think of is that you must be an absolutely horrible streak cat pilot if you think those things are equal to 6 streaks in killing efficiency. Which is saying something when you are talking about an auto-hit weapon.

[Helmer]

Merged.



Cheers.

[Asmosis]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 24 November 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Only one mech can mount 9 tons of medium laser; that mech has to carefully aim, and it needs a whole lot more heat sinks than you need ammo, so it is a lot more than a 9 ton system. Absolutely nothing in the game right now can mount 9 tons of small laser or machine gun, and those are also still things that have to be aimed. .

I wasnt commenting specifically on chassis. Obviously for SML's if you want to compare chassis your comparing 3xssrm2 to 9 sml. guess which one wins there?

Quote

The only thing I can think of is that you must be an absolutely horrible streak cat pilot if you think those things are equal to 6 streaks in killing efficiency. Which is saying something when you are talking about an auto-hit weapon

hrm not exactly. This sort of thing only happens because people are disorgansed (most matches) and run into duel at ssrm range with weapons that have effective ranges up to 1km.

Spoiler

I think 800 dmg in a match is my record so far with a 6ml Jenner, not playing it atm because of the leg damge thing. I'd imagine 9ml hunchbacks can do better. I dont die to streakcats myself in Jenner because i leave them to the assults to deal with. its all about choosing your battles.

Edited by Asmosis, 24 November 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Asmosis, on 24 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

I wasnt commenting specifically on chassis. Obviously for SML's if you want to compare chassis your comparing 3xssrm2 to 9 sml. guess which one wins there?

Wait, what? When did we start comparing 9 small lasers to 3 streaks? Because we are talking about six streaks. And the 9 small laser boat pays for that firepower with heat, with needing to aim, and with sacrificing armor/speed/range/ and flexibility. The streak A1's firepower comes cheap, you don't need to make very many sacrifices (except maybe rearm cost, but that doesn't matter on the battlefield.) Even the short range comes with plenty of speed to close on almost anyone, plus no need for heatsinks, plus plenty of shots per ton, plus *ahem* auto hit still.

[Asmosis]

Here, i'll write it in steps for you.

Lucy was talking about comparing weight of weapons, she used 6 ssrm vs ? anything as an example.

I simply stated that weight for weight, 9ml's can beat 6 ssrms or, weight for weight 18 SML's probably can as well. These are what you'd call theoretical situations as they wouldnt normally appear in MWO (but do in other mech games).

weight for weight, 9 SMLs are the same weight as 3 ssrms. I hope that clears it up for you.

This is a statement of opinion rather than fact, i disagree with the gap between "dps on paper" and "dps ingame" between two pilots with equal skill levels and the difference aiming has on that. The only time a streakcat is vastly harder to hit is when you are being outpiloted/outskilled.

Edited by Asmosis, 24 November 2012 - 06:03 PM.

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

Asmosis, on 24 November 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Here, i'll write it in steps for you.

Lucy was talking about comparing weight of weapons, she used 6 ssrm vs ? anything as an example.

I simply stated that weight for weight, 9ml's can beat 6 ssrms or, weight for weight 18 SML's probably can as well. These are what you'd call theoretical situations as they wouldnt normally appear in MWO (but do in other mech games).

weight for weight, 9 SMLs are the same weight as 3 ssrms. I hope that clears it up for you.

This is a statement of opinion rather than fact, i disagree with the gap between "dps on paper" and "dps ingame" between two pilots with equal skill levels and the difference aiming has on that. The only time a streakcat is vastly harder to hit is when you are being outpiloted/outskilled.

Again, we aren't talking about 3 streaks, we are talking about 6. If 3 were a problem, people would be complaining about streak commandos, and they are not.

[Smokin Dragon]

Broceratops, on 24 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

if you can't beat them, join them! perhaps you will find there are a lot of mechs which can counter then pretty easily.

exactly this

1.make your own SSRM cat.
2. find out which mechs kill you easily.
3. ??????
4. profit.

[the huanglong]

the huanglong, on 24 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Patience is wearing thin for streakwhore's point and click adventure. If you catch one in either tunnel or cave, what mech even has a fighting chance against one? I should not auto die for coming face to face with one. Nothing else in the game is that punishing.

[MetaMaxy]

lol. Noobs cry about this...Meanwhile as I hit them with my LRM's and Autocannon's from 270m+ they pop very very easy. I love seeing streak cats helps my K/D when I play against them =)

[Valore]

Truth be told I was getting more fun out of seeing the rage of frankly average players being killed by my streak cat than because the streak cat is a particularly effective build.

Efficiency wise other than the fact that it helps me be more lazy because I don't have to lead targets to deal with my 300ms ping as much, my SRM cat and my las jenner and las hunchie are not that much different efficiency wise to the streaker.

But hey, having someone to blame their mediocrity on makes people feel better, with the added bonus of letting me fight finger pointing whingers deficient in skill forever.

Not like its doing me any good though. Fighting crap people makes your skills rusty. I'll be switching back to my SRM cat soon enough

[Vermaxx]

the huanglong, on 24 November 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Patience is wearing thin for streakwhore's point and click adventure. If you catch one in either tunnel or cave, what mech even has a fighting chance against one? I should not auto die for coming face to face with one. Nothing else in the game is that punishing.

I personally fear brawler Atlases that demonstrate they are a good player more than streak cats.

I've been playing a streak cat all day. I've had a handful of 'omg' games where I had 3+ kills, and i think -two- where I had 4 or greater. MAYBE three.

The mech has SERIOUS flaws - the ears are easy enough to blow off, I run out of free ammo, I can overheat with burst fire instead of chain, I have no dueling weapons if someone is right on top of me within missile turn range, and coordinated teams know to shoot the shart out of me as soon as they see me.

The mech shines when someone else has all the attention and it is ignored. IE, teamwork. The mech is pretty impotent when it is the center of attention. I've been on teams with other streaks and we still don't get much done. At the end of the day it's still just chain firing SRM2's.

Fix the netcode, reintroduce collisions. Lights will go down, and the appeal of the streak will lessen. Increase their cooldown, FORCE their hit come to spread EVEN FURTHER, and the appeal will lessen more. I won't say the cooldown needs raising, I will admit that if LRM lost cockpit shake then SRM should lose it too. I personally think the mech is not as big as it's hype.

Like someone said, nerfing 6xstreak to manageable levels just tanks the people using two. Like SRM6/SRM4 mechs that downgraded to save weight but up hit probability.

As far as the C1 being a 'broken' chassis - the Jenner can carry six lasers, the Hunchback nine, the Awesome nine, several others are at five. No one complains about these mechs being ridiculously broken because they carry five-plus of one thing. People hate the streak cat because they die to it. You die to it because you run into one alone, or because you are playing a team and the pilot knows how to exploit uncoordinated pugs or lesser skilled teams.

My first match with a streak cat, I ran into one in the ice tunnel carrying 4 and two lasers. We slap fought for like two minutes before I barely won - with no armor left on center torso and banged up everywhere else. EVERY TIME I start chain firing someone, I am consistently underwhelmed by how often I lose the kill.

Occasionally, I have that magic run where everyone I see is partially damaged and the missiles hit JUST RIGHT. Of course, every so often I had that in a gauss mech, or a four-large-laser catapult, or an Awesome, or a TRIAL ATLAS...

[MWHawke]

Freeride Forever, on 24 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

No one can argue they're tough to deal with at close/med range. I pretty much only pilot close/med range builds (none of them Streakcats). So I get killed by Streakcats a lot. They are a lazy & easy way to get good results, but I still don't come in here & whine about it. I ran one during the nerf to unlock a C1 & even then 4 kills was pretty consistent & easy. There are still ways around it. Furthermore, those builds will become targets by all who know what they're capable of & will be dispatched in the proper ways more & more quickly as time goes on. Find the scissors to cut the paper, or the lizard to poison Spock, & instead whine about your mech being left to a gang fu<k because you're looking at your desktop instead of helping your brahs who are also fu<ked now because you unwillingly left the game.

There are bigger problems people. Whine about those instead please!

Totally agree!

[MWHawke]

Vermaxx, on 24 November 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

I personally fear brawler Atlases that demonstrate they are a good player more than streak cats. I've been playing a streak cat all day. I've had a handful of 'omg' games where I had 3+ kills, and i think -two- where I had 4 or greater. MAYBE three. The mech has SERIOUS flaws - the ears are easy enough to blow off, I run out of free ammo, I can overheat with burst fire instead of chain, I have no dueling weapons if someone is right on top of me within missile turn range, and coordinated teams know to shoot the shart out of me as soon as they see me. The mech shines when someone else has all the attention and it is ignored. IE, teamwork. The mech is pretty impotent when it is the center of attention. I've been on teams with other streaks and we still don't get much done. At the end of the day it's still just chain firing SRM2's. Fix the netcode, reintroduce collisions. Lights will go down, and the appeal of the streak will lessen. Increase their cooldown, FORCE their hit come to spread EVEN FURTHER, and the appeal will lessen more. I won't say the cooldown needs raising, I will admit that if LRM lost cockpit shake then SRM should lose it too. I personally think the mech is not as big as it's hype. Like someone said, nerfing 6xstreak to manageable levels just tanks the people using two. Like SRM6/SRM4 mechs that downgraded to save weight but up hit probability. As far as the C1 being a 'broken' chassis - the Jenner can carry six lasers, the Hunchback nine, the Awesome nine, several others are at five. No one complains about these mechs being ridiculously broken because they carry five-plus of one thing. People hate the streak cat because they die to it. You die to it because you run into one alone, or because you are playing a team and the pilot knows how to exploit uncoordinated pugs or lesser skilled teams. My first match with a streak cat, I ran into one in the ice tunnel carrying 4 and two lasers. We slap fought for like two minutes before I barely won - with no armor left on center torso and banged up everywhere else. EVERY TIME I start chain firing someone, I am consistently underwhelmed by how often I lose the kill. Occasionally, I have that magic run where everyone I see is partially damaged and the missiles hit JUST RIGHT. Of course, every so often I had that in a gauss mech, or a four-large-laser catapult, or an Awesome, or a TRIAL ATLAS...

Wonderfully well written. Agree to everything.

[MayGay]

Nachtigall, on 24 November 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

Sorry, but it is enough.
Carapults with Streak srm2. Only Streak SRM2. It is impossible to fight them.
All the the time the own mech is shaking. Nothing to see because fire in front of cockpit.
Find a way against this. Reduce the the Kinetic Burst und the firerate or make it impossible to have so many of Streak-srm.
It´s sucks

stay outside of 270m, SSRMS auto detonate once their range has maxed

use AMS (works at mid to long range...sort of)

juke in and out of cover, they can't shoot through buildings, hills, atlases, est.

he can only shoot one person at a time, where is your team?

only fighting him? shut down as he can't shoot you if he can't lock (unless he has BAP)

Edited by James Griffin, 25 November 2012 - 08:21 AM.