97 replies to this topic

[HurlockHolmes]

+1
Finally somebody with a good head on their shoulders putting forth fair and decent ideas.

PGI could use more people like you.

[Scratx]

The basic idea sounds good, but there's a catch. How would we deal with the fact that Streaks and LRMs would have different locking-on speeds?

Perhaps a simpler solution would actually be to add a chance for an individual streak missile not to fire which is zero when you have 1 launcher but then grows as you add more. After a certain amount of streak launchers it's not worth adding more.


Mind that I am not convinced boating streaks is broken by itself, but there are a few things that can be done to streaks to make them less appealing to boat, for example giving them less of a knocking around effect.

[Ciel Noir]

Voidsinger, on 24 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

This one is straight out of Solaris VII tabletop rules.

For each additional Streak launcher on a firing circuit, it requires an additional second to lockon.

Now, this is something that would make 2-3 Streaks still playable, but above that, lockon times would really reduce the rate of fire. (After all, the data needs to be updated to the missiles constantly until they are fired).

Add in a breaking of lock after missiles are fired (clearing of buffer data?), and you get Streaks still being extremely useful in small numbers for self-defence, and light mechs (ammunition and heat conservation).

Given they are looking at multiple weapons of the same type in the same location generating more heat (which is a function of the hardpoint system, and beyond player control), I think the extra time would be reasonable, and more balancing.

ATTENTION: I have reread the actual Solaris VII rules on this. They did actually state it is a +1 penalty to the target number per extra launcher, not a time penalty. I am sorry I mislead people. However, that said, because Streaks do not fire without a lock, this does translate well to extra time being required for a lock, and my original recommendation that PGI look at this stands.

I am for this. But what happens when they introduce the larger Streak launchers?

[Voidsinger]

Scratx, on 25 November 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

The basic idea sounds good, but there's a catch. How would we deal with the fact that Streaks and LRMs would have different locking-on speeds?

Perhaps a simpler solution would actually be to add a chance for an individual streak missile not to fire which is zero when you have 1 launcher but then grows as you add more. After a certain amount of streak launchers it's not worth adding more.


Mind that I am not convinced boating streaks is broken by itself, but there are a few things that can be done to streaks to make them less appealing to boat, for example giving them less of a knocking around effect.

I definitely agree with the spirit of what you are saying.

Heck I don't even know if PGI *could* implement what I'm saying.

The effect of what you are saying could be similar to what I was proposing. The problem would be that unless you lose the lockon, holding down the mouse would keep on firing whenever there were Streaks ready, and the lockon in place. In effect a combination of groupfire and chainfire.

The reason boating Streaks is such an issue is 100% hit probability. Multiple low mass, low heat, moderate damage weapons with 100% hit probability amounts to potential power issues.

It wasn't a problem in Battletech, because that was still decided launcher by launcher.

It became a potential issue in Solaris VII when they introduced Target Interlock Circuits (weapons groups).

It is definitely an issue in MWO, because targeting is achieved with a manual reticle, and thus firing 6 Streaks is as easy as firing 1.

[Voidsinger]

It just struck me, that there is another solution, which combines what Scratx suggested.

That some Streaks may not fire when the group fires.

This could work if all Streaks in the group went into cooldown mode for the 3.5 or whatever seconds whether they fired or not.

Sadly, this does not solve the issue of chainfire, unless there was a universal chance that a launcher in the chain would not fire (going into automatic cooldown). Sadly, making it a universal chance would mean that it might not also work for mechs with 1 or 2 launchers.Which means you may lower the chance of all Streaks launching. A fixed percentage fail rate would effectively still give (100-x%) of the firepower on average. Could we discriminate by number of launchers in a group, or better on the mech to avoid just splitting Streak groups into say 2 of 3 on a Streakcat?

Thanks for the great ideas Scratx.

Edited by Voidsinger, 25 November 2012 - 11:23 PM.

[focuspark]

While I like the concept and it is thinking outside the box, which we do need more of, I don't feel it actually solves the problem because SSRM2 needs to be comparable to SRM2. This means either a damage reduction, reduced rate of fire, or something to make SSRMs on par with equivalent SRMs. Until PGI solves this, they're sunk.

[Voidsinger]

focuspark, on 25 November 2012 - 11:27 PM, said:

While I like the concept and it is thinking outside the box, which we do need more of, I don't feel it actually solves the problem because SSRM2 needs to be comparable to SRM2. This means either a damage reduction, reduced rate of fire, or something to make SSRMs on par with equivalent SRMs. Until PGI solves this, they're sunk.

Okay, this is where the issue lie. The SSRM2 is a modified SRM2 with it's own targeting and tracking computer, the Targa/7.

In Damage terms, the Streak is equivalent to the SRM2 where both missiles hit.
It is heavier, which it should be.
It is more expensive, which it should be.
The ammunition costs double, which it should.
In heat terms it is the same when fired, which is correct.

Where the Streak has problems is that they are being massively boated, and the special effects.
Flight time aside, a Streak shouldn't have so much smoke, and definitely should not rock the mech more than an SRM2 does. Even a fast missile massing 10 kilograms is not going to rock even a 25 ton mech. We won't even get into LRM rocking with 5.6kg missiles. They will make a noticeable bang, but should not shake the mech. Especially when a pure kinetic energy round like a gauss is barely noticeable.

In terms of why the boating is a problem, the real issue is that people chain fire these solely to keep the special effect going. Lose the special effect, and a great deal of the complaints about Streaks go down.

The Centre torso hit is the other main complaint. I don't really see a need for it to be honest. Each SRM/SSRM should hit a random body part.

Your issues are part of what needs to be solved. However, the boating issue is part of it, since the continual fire is what cripples people on the receiving end. Without that, I think you'd start seeing far less Streaks, especially without the automatic centre torso targeting. Make them slower, but keep 100% mech hits, or the Streak is useless. Decoupling the special effects and centre torso hits would also make clan versions manageable (if any thing as overpowered as clans could be).

[Asmosis]

sure, right after lagshield is fixed so other weapons are viable to combat light mechs.

[focuspark]

Voidsinger, on 26 November 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

Okay, this is where the issue lie. The SSRM2 is a modified SRM2 with it's own targeting and tracking computer, the Targa/7.

In Damage terms, the Streak is equivalent to the SRM2 where both missiles hit.
It is heavier, which it should be.
It is more expensive, which it should be.
The ammunition costs double, which it should.
In heat terms it is the same when fired, which is correct.

Where the Streak has problems is that they are being massively boated, and the special effects.
Flight time aside, a Streak shouldn't have so much smoke, and definitely should not rock the mech more than an SRM2 does. Even a fast missile massing 10 kilograms is not going to rock even a 25 ton mech. We won't even get into LRM rocking with 5.6kg missiles. They will make a noticeable bang, but should not shake the mech. Especially when a pure kinetic energy round like a gauss is barely noticeable.

In terms of why the boating is a problem, the real issue is that people chain fire these solely to keep the special effect going. Lose the special effect, and a great deal of the complaints about Streaks go down.

The Centre torso hit is the other main complaint. I don't really see a need for it to be honest. Each SRM/SSRM should hit a random body part.

Your issues are part of what needs to be solved. However, the boating issue is part of it, since the continual fire is what cripples people on the receiving end. Without that, I think you'd start seeing far less Streaks, especially without the automatic centre torso targeting. Make them slower, but keep 100% mech hits, or the Streak is useless. Decoupling the special effects and centre torso hits would also make clan versions manageable (if any thing as overpowered as clans could be).

First thing I'd like to point out is that I don't care about canon. If this is going to be a successful game then choices need to be meaningful and right now you'd have to be daft to chose a SRM2 vs a Streak 2. Hell, you'd be pretty daft to choose a SRM6 vs a Streak 2. Streaks are broken and need to be brought in line with everything else.

What are we going to do when Streak 4 and Streak 6 show up? They need to balanced in a meaningful way and now. I recommend reducing their damage and rate of fire so that even though they're guaranteed to hit their DPS is on par with a standard SRM 2 (used by a decent shot) over a fixed, but short, period of time (perhaps 20 seconds).

I understand that in canon Streaks are an improvement over standard SRMs but this is a massively multiplayer online video game and having obviously better options meaning choice isn't meaningful. Devs need to remove other SRMs or fix Streaks.

[Czardread]

Ciel Noir, on 25 November 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

I am for this. But what happens when they introduce the larger Streak launchers?

simple, even larger lock on times, lets see if anyone will want to boat 6 ssrm 6 if it takes like 10+ seconds to lock on with then all.

add to it a REALLY long cooldown period too, and you have it almost balanced out, only the spread would be left to solve (which i suggest taking with these bigger streak a similar approach of that of the lrm's)

Edited by Czardread, 26 November 2012 - 01:11 AM.

[Czardread]

Voidsinger, on 25 November 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

It just struck me, that there is another solution, which combines what Scratx suggested.

That some Streaks may not fire when the group fires.

This could work if all Streaks in the group went into cooldown mode for the 3.5 or whatever seconds whether they fired or not.

Sadly, this does not solve the issue of chainfire, unless there was a universal chance that a launcher in the chain would not fire (going into automatic cooldown). Sadly, making it a universal chance would mean that it might not also work for mechs with 1 or 2 launchers.Which means you may lower the chance of all Streaks launching. A fixed percentage fail rate would effectively still give (100-x%) of the firepower on average. Could we discriminate by number of launchers in a group, or better on the mech to avoid just splitting Streak groups into say 2 of 3 on a Streakcat?

Thanks for the great ideas Scratx.

you mean jam chance on streaks, like with the UAC's? could work too.

[Voidsinger]

focuspark, on 26 November 2012 - 12:51 AM, said:

First thing I'd like to point out is that I don't care about canon. If this is going to be a successful game then choices need to be meaningful and right now you'd have to be daft to chose a SRM2 vs a Streak 2. Hell, you'd be pretty daft to choose a SRM6 vs a Streak 2. Streaks are broken and need to be brought in line with everything else.

What are we going to do when Streak 4 and Streak 6 show up? They need to balanced in a meaningful way and now. I recommend reducing their damage and rate of fire so that even though they're guaranteed to hit their DPS is on par with a standard SRM 2 (used by a decent shot) over a fixed, but short, period of time (perhaps 20 seconds).

I understand that in canon Streaks are an improvement over standard SRMs but this is a massively multiplayer online video game and having obviously better options meaning choice isn't meaningful. Devs need to remove other SRMs or fix Streaks.

First up, you may not care about canon, but many within this community do. That is what I was trying to do when I started this topic. Give as many possible options to PGI outside of the usual balancing tricks by thinking outside the box, and yes referring to canon. I've seen a few good ideas coming out of that, and it is good.

Canon Battletech never had the problem. However, when they introduced weapon groups, they saw the possibilities of Streak boating being abused, and put in an optional rule to prevent it. MWO has no such mechanism, and thus has the current problem with boating.

Understand, that in canon, Streaks are simply an SRM that will hit with 100% of all missiles, or not fire. Their initial introduction was to prevent excess heat buildup, and to conserve ammunition, both of which they do well. Clan Streaks are a logical extension of that to the other SRM launchers. The special effects added by PGI, and the centre torso lock issue are not in any way part of canon, and for balance sake, should go.

Why choose another launcher? Mass. Inner Sphere Streaks weigh 1.5 times the size of a standard SRM2. Clan Streaks are twice the weight of a clan SRM. If you can afford the excess heat, the extra ammunition, or just need that higher damage potential, standard SRMs still have a place, indeed there is a mech (Arctic Wolf), which carries 6 SRM 6 launchers, 2 SRM 4 launchers + NARC (which works for SRMs too in BT), all on a 40 ton frame.

Why should their damage DPS over time match an SRM2? They were designed to be improived technology, are heavier, and more expensive. Care to nerf the Gauss Rifle until it matches equivalent older technology? As long as improvements don't totally overpower the game, they are fine.

The issues with SRMs currently, mostly relate to missile spread, and .PGI is constantly tinkering with that to try and obtain the effect they want while trying to avoid the Streak in a conventional SRM effect.

Edited by Voidsinger, 26 November 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[o0Marduk0o]

Instead of increasing missile lock time or adding target loss after firing (this would render chainfire useless), I would increase the cooldown for fired weapons for every weapon of the same kind on your mech.
The amount of cooldown increase depends on the weapon.

This way you can balance weapon boating for every weapon and even different streaks (e.g. later SSRM4/6).

Nevertheless, good ideas.

[Valaska]

Hmm... Nicely done mate, great suggestion.

[Qarnage]

Your system works as well with LRM(-5).

AWESOME.

[Matthew Ace]

Excellent idea, maybe we can get everyone to post this question at least once for Q&A sessions to get it across.

I would like to see what they have in plan for the next Streak adjustments however (as highlighted in Command Chair).

[DeadlyNerd]

Funny PGI was so bent over canon and overlooked this.
Also streaks need to be doing single body part damage or their damage needs to be spread evenly, in decimal values. Currently it seems to me that they're doing 1 minimum damage to body parts around the one they hit, meaning they do more than what they're intended to do.

[_Rorschach_]

Now that I've thought a bit more about it and read the new comments here's what I think now.
Increasing lock time really seems to create quite a few problems, since we only have one lock in game for LRMs and SSRMs.
Breaking lock after firing might be even worse for mechs mounting both kinds of missiles when engaging at ranges between 180 and 270 meters, where both are effective. Loosing lock after firing would render the LRMs ineffective when they are fired together with the SSRMs.

Using cooldown time increases instead of lock time increases seems a pretty good solution. It might even be a solution to boating in general, not just for missiles.
To me it makes sense that a guided weapon would go for center of mass. So while I can see that some more spread out damage by missiles is desirable I think the distribution should look somewhat like this: 3% for each leg (missiles don't fly so low), 7% for each arm, 10% for each shoulder, 15% for each side torso and the remainder (30%) for ct. Numbers are placeholders but you get the idea . If the anti-boating measures work well this might not even be necessary but I thought I'd write it down anyway.
I also like the idea of SSRM launchers 'misfiring' and going into cooldown without having launched their missiles. This could work for both chainfiring, normal firing via multiple weapon groups and alphaing by increasing the misfire chance for each launcher mounted instead of each launcher in the group. Or maybe have the chance depend on how many launchers where fired within the last x seconds?

A lot of interesting ideas here to explore. I really like this thread

edit: I also just realized one of my old laptops is manufactured by a company called Targa. Ummm, does this mean I can fix a rocket launcher to my car now? ^^

Edited by pack wolf, 26 November 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[Qarnage]

Ciel Noir, on 25 November 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

I am for this. But what happens when they introduce the larger Streak launchers?

To my understanding, lock time would be added per launcher. If you use only 1 Clan Streak SRM-6, it would take regular lock time. If you boat somehow 6 Clan Streak-6 on a Vulture or something, well lock time still should be added per launcher basis.

[Deadoon]

I thought of an interesting add-on to this, had an idea about combining this with all lock on systems.

As you hold your target you get ticks on the side of your reticle up to the amount of launchers you have, you can launch your missiles in chain firing if you want, but after the first launch the ticks will start disappearing, and unless you keep firing you will not gain the full benefit of the lockon.

Say you are boating 6 streaks, you lock on for 5 ticks, but only end up chain firing 3 of them, the last 2 ticks will disappear on their own at the same speed as chain firing, then you will proceed to lose lock-on, and have to reacquire. Initial lock will stay the same, but each additional launcher needs another .5-1 seconds to acquire it's own lock-on. This would allow people to have their 2 streaks on a dragon and either group fire them, or chain fire them to disrupt for a bit longer, while making it annoying as hell to catapult boats and make their life hell upon a 6 streak chair, as unless they fire them all at once they will reload their missiles before they can even re-lock on. This method would also make a small oversight on lrm system weight and make a lrm 10 actually better than 2 lrm 5 on a dragon.

A clan mech with streaks could easily get around this weakness with only 2-4 streak launchers, but they would still have the downside of not being able to chain-fire rapidly. Seriously 6 ssrm-6 would be hell to anything, light, medium, heavy, heck an assault would take a pounding from that kind of alpha.

In this way, a alpha of srm will usually regain lock-on before the ssrm are reloaded, thus allowing a cat to have all his ssrm effectively, but f he chooses chain firing it would be in bursts due to the additional locks required.

Edited by Deadoon, 26 November 2012 - 03:47 AM.