97 replies to this topic

[_Rorschach_]

Deadoon's post inspired me for an idea. What if locks had a 'quality' to them. As they are now either you have a lock or you don't.
How about this: after acquiring a lock you get a percentage value between 100% and, say, 50%. This value fluctuates over time.
When you fire all fired weapons go into cooldown, but only the percentage of missiles corresponding to that value actually launch. So after you get a lock you either wait for a good percentage value and fire all or most of your launchers for the greatest effect or you stagger your shots to put out a constant stream of missiles accepting that you will not do as much damage as you could since for some of your launches you will have a low percentage.
To remove the random element from this (fluctuation of the value) a lock could start out at maybe 75% and drop by 20(?)% per fired launcher, regenerating over time up to 100%.

[Bobzilla]

I don't use missle boats, but im starting to feel bad for them. First you nerf their LRM's, so now they use streaks and you wanna nerf them too. Then they will just load up with srm6's and you'll wanna nerf them. This idea for the ssrms is a good one, shoulda been something like that for the LRMs too because everytime you nerf one weapon your making the others more powerful and weakening a mech that uses a viriety to be rounded. The ssrms wouldn't be used so much if the lrm's didn't get nerfed. And i would rather fight a LRM boat that you can just get close to or hide from easy rather than trying to stay away from or running from a ssrm boat.

[Voidsinger]

DeadlyNerd, on 26 November 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

Funny PGI was so bent over canon and overlooked this.
Also streaks need to be doing single body part damage or their damage needs to be spread evenly, in decimal values. Currently it seems to me that they're doing 1 minimum damage to body parts around the one they hit, meaning they do more than what they're intended to do.

To tell you the truth, I've never actually looked at how damage from Streaks was applied. I know PGI was probably trying to make each weapon unique in some way, but sadly, that may have gone a bit noverboard, and the Streak may just need to be simplified back to a 100% SRM.

pack wolf, on 26 November 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Now that I've thought a bit more about it and read the new comments here's what I think now.
Increasing lock time really seems to create quite a few problems, since we only have one lock in game for LRMs and SSRMs.
Breaking lock after firing might be even worse for mechs mounting both kinds of missiles when engaging at ranges between 180 and 270 meters, where both are effective. Loosing lock after firing would render the LRMs ineffective when they are fired together with the SSRMs.

Yes, I'm not sure how PGI implements this. It's one reason why I liked Scatx's suggestion of a percentage chance a launcher may not fire. Taking that a step further, maybe at the start of game, the number of Streaks on a mech or in a group can be calculated to give a 'passover chance'. If a launcher passes over, it generates no heat, and uses no ammunition, but must go through cooldown time before attempting to fire again. For group fire rather than chainfire, the entire group may fail to fire, or just a percentage of launchers. Basically a law of diminishing returns. The more you stack, the greater the chance the one or more Targas will fail to lock in.

As I said, I have no idea as to what is technically possible, or what is playable. Best we can do is give options that fix the problem over the long term for PGI to kick over in their offices.

pack wolf, on 26 November 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Using cooldown time increases instead of lock time increases seems a pretty good solution. It might even be a solution to boating in general, not just for missiles.
To me it makes sense that a guided weapon would go for center of mass. So while I can see that some more spread out damage by missiles is desirable I think the distribution should look somewhat like this: 3% for each leg (missiles don't fly so low), 7% for each arm, 10% for each shoulder, 15% for each side torso and the remainder (30%) for ct. Numbers are placeholders but you get the idea . If the anti-boating measures work well this might not even be necessary but I thought I'd write it down anyway.
I also like the idea of SSRM launchers 'misfiring' and going into cooldown without having launched their missiles. This could work for both chainfiring, normal firing via multiple weapon groups and alphaing by increasing the misfire chance for each launcher mounted instead of each launcher in the group. Or maybe have the chance depend on how many launchers where fired within the last x seconds?

I like it, another option for them to look at.

pack wolf, on 26 November 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

A lot of interesting ideas here to explore. I really like this thread

edit: I also just realized one of my old laptops is manufactured by a company called Targa. Ummm, does this mean I can fix a rocket launcher to my car now? ^^

They still do laptop bags. Why go for having to drive around, when you can simply carry it beside you at all times. :-)

[Voidsinger]

Deadoon, on 26 November 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

I thought of an interesting add-on to this, had an idea about combining this with all lock on systems.

As you hold your target you get ticks on the side of your reticle up to the amount of launchers you have, you can launch your missiles in chain firing if you want, but after the first launch the ticks will start disappearing, and unless you keep firing you will not gain the full benefit of the lockon.

Say you are boating 6 streaks, you lock on for 5 ticks, but only end up chain firing 3 of them, the last 2 ticks will disappear on their own at the same speed as chain firing, then you will proceed to lose lock-on, and have to reacquire. Initial lock will stay the same, but each additional launcher needs another .5-1 seconds to acquire it's own lock-on. This would allow people to have their 2 streaks on a dragon and either group fire them, or chain fire them to disrupt for a bit longer, while making it annoying as hell to catapult boats and make their life hell upon a 6 streak chair, as unless they fire them all at once they will reload their missiles before they can even re-lock on. This method would also make a small oversight on lrm system weight and make a lrm 10 actually better than 2 lrm 5 on a dragon.

A clan mech with streaks could easily get around this weakness with only 2-4 streak launchers, but they would still have the downside of not being able to chain-fire rapidly. Seriously 6 ssrm-6 would be hell to anything, light, medium, heavy, heck an assault would take a pounding from that kind of alpha.

In this way, a alpha of srm will usually regain lock-on before the ssrm are reloaded, thus allowing a cat to have all his ssrm effectively, but f he chooses chain firing it would be in bursts due to the additional locks required.

The only issue I can see with this would be the complexity of implementation, as the cockpit interface would need to be redesigned to handle it.

Since this is a very current issue, and PGI wants to do something about now, simplicity comes into it.

Over the long term though, it might be viable, and interesting for when other weapons may get added like MRMs or some of the epecial types first featured in The Tactical Handbook.

[Voidsinger]

pack wolf, on 26 November 2012 - 06:43 AM, said:

Deadoon's post inspired me for an idea. What if locks had a 'quality' to them. As they are now either you have a lock or you don't.
How about this: after acquiring a lock you get a percentage value between 100% and, say, 50%. This value fluctuates over time.
When you fire all fired weapons go into cooldown, but only the percentage of missiles corresponding to that value actually launch. So after you get a lock you either wait for a good percentage value and fire all or most of your launchers for the greatest effect or you stagger your shots to put out a constant stream of missiles accepting that you will not do as much damage as you could since for some of your launches you will have a low percentage.
To remove the random element from this (fluctuation of the value) a lock could start out at maybe 75% and drop by 20(?)% per fired launcher, regenerating over time up to 100%.

It is nice, however it would break the all or none per launcher canon from all previous Battletech and Mechwarrior games, and encroach on Streak ammunition efficiency territory. Then there are issues of heat to deal with.

It is nice, and the sort of thing I see launchers would in fact head towards. However, it breaks all the BT canon, and is far more complex to handle for the game engine.

[Voidsinger]

Bobzilla, on 26 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't use missle boats, but im starting to feel bad for them. First you nerf their LRM's, so now they use streaks and you wanna nerf them too. Then they will just load up with srm6's and you'll wanna nerf them. This idea for the ssrms is a good one, shoulda been something like that for the LRMs too because everytime you nerf one weapon your making the others more powerful and weakening a mech that uses a viriety to be rounded. The ssrms wouldn't be used so much if the lrm's didn't get nerfed. And i would rather fight a LRM boat that you can just get close to or hide from easy rather than trying to stay away from or running from a ssrm boat.

LRMs tend to have a number of unique issues being the only indirect fire weapon in the game, which will also need to be addressed if and when they introduce artillery.

Spread is probably the main control used for both LRMs and SRMs. This doesn't work so well with Streaks, exccept in regard to not all hitting so close to centre torso. Ammunition costs also works well for mass boating of LRMs and SRMs, but not so well on Streaks, being designed on the concept of ammunition efficiency. Heat also comes into play with mass boating of larger launchers, as well as the mass of launchers.

I think we saw the LRM equivalent to the Streak problem in the immediate aftermath of the Artemis release, mechs dropping vertically, avoiding all AMS and rendering cover unusable.

[Boris The Spider]

Bobzilla, on 26 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't use missle boats, but im starting to feel bad for them. First you nerf their LRM's, so now they use streaks and you wanna nerf them too. Then they will just load up with srm6's and you'll wanna nerf them. This idea for the ssrms is a good one, shoulda been something like that for the LRMs too because everytime you nerf one weapon your making the others more powerful and weakening a mech that uses a viriety to be rounded. The ssrms wouldn't be used so much if the lrm's didn't get nerfed. And i would rather fight a LRM boat that you can just get close to or hide from easy rather than trying to stay away from or running from a ssrm boat.

I'm not going to shed a single tear for them, we are in beta and weapon values are going to be in flux for a very long time. My LRM boat hasnt changed config since the arival of artermis, if I kept changing it out every time a weapon value changed, apart from it being frustrating, I would no longer be testing the changes, I would be powerbuilding to whatever the latest fad is.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 26 November 2012 - 08:51 AM.

[Deadoon]

Voidsinger, on 26 November 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

The only issue I can see with this would be the complexity of implementation, as the cockpit interface would need to be redesigned to handle it.

Since this is a very current issue, and PGI wants to do something about now, simplicity comes into it.

Over the long term though, it might be viable, and interesting for when other weapons may get added like MRMs or some of the epecial types first featured in The Tactical Handbook.

It would be fairly simple, you add little ticks outside the lock-on reticle, once it coalesces it adds on a meter to the side of sorts which adds tick marks that when full turn green for ready to fire, but before that the marks are yellow for incomplete.

Graphically it would be simple, coding wise it would take a while to be server-side authorized and not exploitable..

[Voidsinger]

Deadoon, on 26 November 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

It would be fairly simple, you add little ticks outside the lock-on reticle, once it coalesces it adds on a meter to the side of sorts which adds tick marks that when full turn green for ready to fire, but before that the marks are yellow for incomplete.

Graphically it would be simple, coding wise it would take a while to be server-side authorized and not exploitable..

Interesting. Definitely could be done.

Only drawbacks I can see would be time to recode interface and teaching new users how to use it. Another possible drawback, which as a high ping Australian user I would notice is serverside authorisation perhaps causing issues, so playability for overseas players would need to be tested.

[Relic1701]

It's been an hour since the last post, so gonna bump this excellent proposal .

[Squidhead Jax]

There are tuning issues to sort out, but overall I support this proposal.

[TickingTimeTit]

After reading the entire thread, I think all of these suggestions have merrit. My personal preference would be to replace lock-on increases with cooldown increases with similar increments, in addition to removing the cockpit shake. This drops DPS without having to do any major gameplay overhauls, no interface modifications, and keeps the lights/mediums happy, and nerfs the C1 deathboats without completely killing the SSRM as a viable weapon.

Thanks Voidsinger! This has been one of the best reads all-day.

[Wales Grey]

Voidsinger, on 24 November 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

This one is straight out of Solaris VII tabletop rules.

For each additional Streak launcher on a firing circuit, it requires an additional second to lockon.

Now, this is something that would make 2-3 Streaks still playable, but above that, lockon times would really reduce the rate of fire. (After all, the data needs to be updated to the missiles constantly until they are fired).

Add in a breaking of lock after missiles are fired (clearing of buffer data?), and you get Streaks still being extremely useful in small numbers for self-defence, and light mechs (ammunition and heat conservation).

Given they are looking at multiple weapons of the same type in the same location generating more heat (which is a function of the hardpoint system, and beyond player control), I think the extra time would be reasonable, and more balancing.

ATTENTION: I have reread the actual Solaris VII rules on this. They did actually state it is a +1 penalty to the target number per extra launcher, not a time penalty. I am sorry I mislead people. However, that said, because Streaks do not fire without a lock, this does translate well to extra time being required for a lock, and my original recommendation that PGI look at this stands.

A good idea, but a friend recommended the lock-on time be based on the number of streak tubes being locked, rather than the number of launchers. This solution would not only help fix SSRM/2 spam, but it would also prevent SSRM/4 and SSRM/6 spam, while also having a clear role for the SSRM/2: a quick-locking weapon to tell lights to 'buzz off' with.

[BlacKcuD]

*bump* like the idea. 1 second may be a bit much since it kinda defeats the purpose of streaksrms being usable as anti-light defense mechanis for heavy/assault mechs, but I like the general direction this is going.

[Voidsinger]

Wales Grey, on 26 November 2012 - 01:47 PM, said:

A good idea, but a friend recommended the lock-on time be based on the number of streak tubes being locked, rather than the number of launchers. This solution would not only help fix SSRM/2 spam, but it would also prevent SSRM/4 and SSRM/6 spam, while also having a clear role for the SSRM/2: a quick-locking weapon to tell lights to 'buzz off' with.

I think in the end what happens will be up to the devs, in what they can do, and what they see as balanced.

I see definite merit in the idea, in that it does scale properly.

When I first wrote what I did, I did so based on the Solaris VII original rules, which did not include clan weapons due to the release date (Kind of like how Battletroops didn't include clan, released at the same time, but in planning for months before). So, the larger launchers weren't included in the rule. As I said, a logical extrapolation based on balance.

[Voidsinger]

Paul has updated the Weapons Balancing Thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

Given what he has stated in the second post, what we suggest could be helpful to the devs.

Keep them coming, keep them civilised, and let the devs know what we feel might be able to be done.

[Sulf]

Absolutely this!

[Czardread]

Bobzilla, on 26 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

I don't use missle boats, but im starting to feel bad for them. First you nerf their LRM's, so now they use streaks and you wanna nerf them too. Then they will just load up with srm6's and you'll wanna nerf them. This idea for the ssrms is a good one, shoulda been something like that for the LRMs too because everytime you nerf one weapon your making the others more powerful and weakening a mech that uses a viriety to be rounded. The ssrms wouldn't be used so much if the lrm's didn't get nerfed. And i would rather fight a LRM boat that you can just get close to or hide from easy rather than trying to stay away from or running from a ssrm boat.

actually i think lrm are now quite well rounded after the last patch. every salvo of a lrm 15 takes off 3% armor from varied locations, discount ams, cover and other means to preventing it, they cause quite a damage, but not enough to overkill like before. they found its balance, though i do think that artemis might need some little tweaking, really not seeing much advantage to it now, except maybe if you need to burn through money on the mech lab.

[Czardread]

keep buzzing the button voidsinger, seems they are leaning in your thinking direction.

[Stavinsky Elyas]

The very same thing we were thinking with a friend of mine on the Team Speak
those last days, as we keep going against more and more Streak Cata boat with 6
launchers and dazillion ammoes with the highest speed aviable for those. And
they even seems to never break the acquisition even when you manage to break the
line of sight.

Actually I have just got into 4 games in a row with teams of 4 guys using all the same exact
fit -> 6 streak srm 2 + anti missile on ultra fast catapults.

No way to survive or even get close for a light and if you run into them by the
time you turn away or try to escape you are dead meat. Especially with the insta
locking some people seems to have.

Surely not the way the dev where thinking those supposed secondary weapons would be used.

When you pick in fact the rules in the interlocking of missiles, it say +1 for every streak
added to the locking.

If we take a 'simple' calculation

1) The average Inner sphere pilot values : piloting 5, gunnery 4

2) A Raven speed of running -> 9 hexagone = roughly 97 km/h

3) The shooter, a running Catapult

The situation

A catapult run face to face with a Raven, and start to try to shoot
at 270m range (max range of the missiles)

Running Cata = +2 to hit
Running Raven for 9 hexa = +3
Range (long) = +4

Let's say it's a flat area, nothing in the sight to prevent the targeting so those +4
for the long range is the only other buff

That make a result of

4 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 13 -> A regular pilot with average gunnery skill can't even lock 1 streak.

Let's say it's a clan pilot with a gunnery skill of 2

2 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 11 -> He has 8% chance to lock it's streak launcher.

Now if he interlock 2 streak -> the value get up to 12, that make a ~3% chance of locking them.


So to hope to lock 6 streak srm by the Table top rule you have to have

1) an Elite Clan pilot with gunnery of 2
2) A target that has traveled less than 60m over the round (21.6 km/h) (+0)
3) A stationary shooting Catapult (+0)
4) a target at 270m (+4)
6) 6 Streak srm to interlock (+5)

For a result of : 2 +0 + 0 + 4 + 5 = 11
That give the Elite clan pilote an average 8% chance to acquire the Lock

Not exactly what we see in game, do we ?

So I really think that adding a scalable timer to the interlock depending on the number of
streak and a couple of other ideas would be the best.


My proposition would go this way :


What ever the number of streak srm you have :
- No way to lock over 300m
- Clearing of the targeting buffer after 3 seconds if the target get over the 300m
and you can't get him under the 300m range in those 3 seconds.


1 Streak :
- Actual Timer
- No penalities

2 Streak
- Locking time +1 seconds
- No clearing of the buffer after shooting

3 streak
- Locking time +3 seconds
- Clearing the lock after the shoot
- + 1 heat

4 Streak
- Locking time + 5 seconds
- Clearing of the lock after the shoot
- +2 heat

5 Streak
- Locking time + 8 seconds
- clearing the lock after the shoot
- +3 heat

6 Streak
- Locking time +10 seconds
- Clearing the lock after the shoot
- +5 heat

7+ streak
-> Mechanical prevention to avoid so many launchers


To explain the heat -> The computer needed to interlock so many launcher and all
the equipement to acquire the data and process the missiles trajectories would
require a lot of calculation power, especially knowing the state of the
technology at the time.


That solution should get the game rid of those players who abuse games mechanics
"ad nauseam", making the streak only boat unusable but without hurting the
players of medium to assault mech using them as they are supposed to be used
(secondary weapons) and without hurting light mech who use them with a mix of
other short range weapons (like a commando with 2 streak and one lrm with
lasers, or droping one of the launcher for some other energy mix).

And this would surely be usable with the more advanced version of the streak
that could come in the future. And if Streak SRM 4 and 6 would come I think
something should be done depending on the number of missile the launcher is
using to avoid the same problem of game mechanic abuse when those new system
come into game.

It would also make some specific mech being fitted for a more 'versatile' and
usefull role instead of having streak boats that suddently run out of missile
and have no other weapons to help their team.

That would make the experience much more enjoyable for everyone as the actual
situation with sometimes up to 4 players with full Streak Cata focusing 1 target
after the other make the game really really boring and kill the fun of it.




Addendum For Streak SRM 4

1 Streak :
- Timer the dev choose to put on
- No penalities

2 Streak
- Locking time +2 seconds
- No clearing of the buffer after shooting

3 streak
- Locking time +6 seconds
- Clearing the lock after the shoot
- + 1 heat

4 Streak
- Locking time + 10 seconds
- Clearing of the lock after the shoot
- +2 heat

5 Streak
- Locking time + 16 seconds
- clearing the lock after the shoot
- +3 heat

6 Streak
- Locking time +20 seconds
- Clearing the lock after the shoot
- +5 heat

7+ streak
-> Mechanical prevention to avoid so many launchers


Addendum For Streak SRM 6

1 Streak :
- Timer the dev choose to put on
- No penalities

2 Streak
- Locking time +3 seconds
- No clearing of the buffer after shooting

3 streak
- Locking time +9 seconds
- Clearing the lock after the shoot
- + 1 heat

4 Streak
- Locking time + 15 seconds
- Clearing of the lock after the shoot
- +2 heat

5 Streak
- Locking time + 24 seconds
- clearing the lock after the shoot
- +3 heat

6 Streak
- Locking time +30 seconds
- Clearing the lock after the shoot
- +5 heat

7+ streak
-> Mechanical prevention to avoid so many launchers


Those times could be tweaked, but they take into account that the computer doing
the calculation has to do them for a much larger number of missile as EVERY of
the missiles needs some specific informations, all depending on their position
on the mech, and to avoid the collision at the launch and then in flight. (Idea
picked from one of the Technical readout, from a tank launching lrm that had
needed some special positioning of the launchers AND computer to avoid collision
of the missile at the launch time.)



Edit :

I was thinking about the LRM boating some people are speaking,
and I mus disagree, the LRM rains can be escaped if you play well
and if the players stay grouped with multiple AMS working togethers.

The introduction of the artemis was correct, but the high flying profile
of the missiles was the wrong situation. When they nefed the value
AND come back to the previous flying profile they overnerfed the whole
system.

And if I think the LRM boats are not to be nerfed too bad, it's because
they are supposed to be dangerous. Look in the books how the Archer was
feared, especially in the hands of some good pilots.
Or how Kai Allard acting as a spotter in the Outreach training
got the lance of Victor Davion, Gallen Cox, Hohiro Kurita and Shin
leveled almost without taking damage to his own team.

Yes there must be a balance, but not to the point that some people
can just let the AMS down as they are not even really usefull now.

And if we push the idea further, if Clan LRM come into the game
we would surely see some mech with up to 4 clan LRM 20 mounted,
like the clan Archer, but more on some Clan equiped Catapult.

Just my 2 cents.


Edit 2 :
Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks to all who get through it.
I know I take the time to argue when coming to such things.

Edited by Stavinsky Elyas, 26 November 2012 - 06:49 PM.