29 replies to this topic

[EmCeeMendez]

LennStar, on 26 November 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Thats very interesting because I manage to hit an AMS protected mech with a single LRM5 - how so?
In my experience its one or two LRM that hit the target out of a LRM5 (would mean: 3 shot down, 1 misses sometimes). If running in my LRM-Raven (2x5LRM) I do a respectable ampount of dmg even on AMS protected mechs. Two days ago I fired a few volleys before seeing that there are 2 more mechs - so in the end 3 AMS were firing at the missiles and even then I scored hits.
Thats possible if an AMS destroys 3 LRM - 3+2+1 lets say from teh 3 Mechs. It does not work if it is 7 - 7+2+1 would be enough and they were close enough together.

Besides the number of 7 is highly averaged. There is a big difference in the number if LRM hit betwenn running 100+kps to or from them.
As a scout I know the effects from the other side. A 10LRM will hit me even if I run away. A 5 mostly gets killed. So here, too, not 7 LRM intercepted (standstill counting) or in running away the 10LRM would be killed.

I don't know how else to tell you that 7 standard LRM's are intercepted per volley. This is not an average, this is a data point.

Obviously running one way or the other affects the number, as well as running a mech that can physically dodge LRM's or even using cover.

However, when given the full 200 meters to do their job, and not fighting Artemis IV LRM's, it can intercept 7 LRM's per volley. I have tested this time and again, and have always had the same results.

I have no idea why an LRM 5 can hit an AMS protected mech. My guess is that it was not what actually hit your target. Keep in mind you have teammates with better things to do than waste time with an LRM 5.

AMS does not intercept a percentage, it fires at a max rate and does the best it can with that fire rate. Please, the next time you're getting LRM'd, notice the speed with which you spend AMS ammo, and whether it changes based on the size of a volley. If it goes 1/4 speed when intercepting an LRM 5 instead of an LRM 20, or even 1/10 the speed for a SSRM 2, please post in this thread.

Edited by EmCeeMendez, 27 November 2012 - 05:51 PM.

[semalferuzA]

EmCeeMendez, on 27 November 2012 - 04:32 PM, said:

If it goes 1/4 speed when intercepting and LRM 5 instead of an LRM 20, or even 1/10 the speed for a SSRM 2, please post in this thread.

Rate of fire is irrelevant if the accuracy improves as the cloud of missiles grows larger.

[EmCeeMendez]

semalferuzA, on 27 November 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

Rate of fire is irrelevant if the accuracy improves as the cloud of missiles grows larger.

It doesn't. Also, I don't think you understood the point of my quoted sentence.

Edited by EmCeeMendez, 27 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Aym]

MC where's the data about 7 missiles per volley? I thought the dev's said it was a percentage.

[EmCeeMendez]

Bajillions and bajillions of drops, with anecdotal evidence. Also, when we had 8 mans, we were lucky enough to do an 8 v 8 where I tested it. 7 was the magic number then, and according to my eye, that is still about the max AMS can handle.

[bashpr0mpt]

Konril, on 25 November 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

Two LRM-10s will fire a second faster than an LRM-20. At least according to the data, It's 3.75s recycle as opposed to 4.75. So if you are firing from a position where you can keep sensor lock, it's going to be 20% faster DPS.

Does Artemis add 20% more DPS? If it provides less than a 20% boost then it is more worthwhile using LRM-10's without arty by far. The problem is, like everything to do with this game, the devs give us EXTREMELY vague details and if it weren't for intelligent players snooping through source code we would have NO real hard figures to base things off realistically. The beagle, artemis, tag, etc, all the perk type modules are still vague as hell as to what they do. I mean from what I saw a guy demonstrate from the code of the game the beagle didn't really even look worth using.

Does Artemis add a hard % boost to damage? Or a guestimate value? From the sounds, 20% is a pretty big number, so I am assuming that LRM10 boating is vastly superior and saves you almost a million cbill and god knows how many tonnes and slots!!

Konril, on 25 November 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

About the AMS issue, I'm not so sure. An alpha fired mix of two 10s shouldn't be any different in flight than a 20, assuming the mech was originally designed for the 20. If you are firing a 20 out of a mech that originally had just a 10, then it will get split into two groups of 10 and fired that way. The difference between the alpha and the chain fired against an AMS means that the AMS has more time to shoot down more missiles when they're chain fired.

Here's the kicker and why LRM's / SRM's are 'broken' and boating doesn't work (when using a mech that IS a missile boat besides maybe the catapult?) it fires in a volley as big as the holes available on the mech. The AMS deals with each volley and defeats 80% of all missiles fired. So if you have 6 holes on your mech and have 3 LRM 20's shooting 60 rockets that's ten volleys of 6, an AMS will defeat 100% of your 60 missiles.

This is purely based on what I have observed playing heavy missile boat (by default (bought that way)) mechs. My LRM's are just not effective at all compared to say, my Raven with 2 PPC's which can pull 800 damage a match whereas my Stalker LRM boat (even in SRM boat configuration!) pulls maybe 300-400. That said I have a STK-5S with two AMS systems, I have literally seen the sky go white with 3 LRM boaters shooting 200 or so missiles my way only for my dual AMS systems to eat that **** up, I'd get maybe 10 or so break through. I wouldn't even move out of the way in the 5S if I hear 'incoming missiles' because I know my two AMS will defeat 100% of everything unless I am going up against a catapult or a mech that fires it's LRMs in volleys of 9+ which few mechs by design will do.

Same reason chain firing sucks, that constant stream of missiles looks cool and overheats you less, but the bottom line is you're giving AMS time to eat those suckers up. Then the few that pass through AMS do measly damage anyway.

I have an LRM boat which launches an LRM80 volley. At 1KM I can get 2 maybe 3 volleys in the air. That's 240 inbound missiles for the enemy to chew on. First volley hits, their health goes down maybe 2%. By the end of all 240 missiles they go down maybe 4-6%. I get my chicken walker Raven with it's two PPC's and **** a similar target and I'm pulling 8-10% per strike. I don't see why a mech I paid AUD$40 IRL for with millions upon millions worth of tech does less damage than a 1 million POS Raven I bought while in cadet stages, but hey, if there's one thing we can all agree on it's that the devs really don't seem to care for player feedback. I am starting to wonder if they even play the game now though.

[scJazz]

Holy Thread Necro!

[Aym]

Not only MASSIVE necro, but really unaware of all the balance changes that have happened in the OVER SIX MONTHS since this was left dead on the wayside.

For the uninformed, LRMs have been nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed, nerfed AND buffed again since the last constructive post in this thread. Additionally AMS has been buffed. LRMs are due for some more buffs apparently, and it seems CERTAIN that the AMS shoots down missiles by doing damage to them while they are withing 200-300m of their target, I Forget the exact number. However it seriously appears to target one missile at a time (per AMS) and therefore is much more effective against smaller salvos, either from smaller launchers or hardpoints with less tubes available. Once again it appears that mechs designed to shoot large volleys of LRMS (IE the Catapult A1, Stalker 5M) are better at it. They're not currently "good" builds but at least know what you're getting into.

[Nebelfeuer]

bashpr0mpt, on 11 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Same reason chain firing sucks, that constant stream of missiles looks cool and overheats you less, but the bottom line is you're giving AMS time to eat those suckers up. Then the few that pass through AMS do measly damage anyway.

untrue 2xLRM5 fired in one volley wwill be eaten by your dual AMS - however chainfired the second one will hit while the first will be eaten.

bashpr0mpt, on 11 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

I have an LRM boat which launches an LRM80 volley. At 1KM I can get 2 maybe 3 volleys in the air. That's 240 inbound missiles for the enemy to chew on. First volley hits, their health goes down maybe 2%. By the end of all 240 missiles they go down maybe 4-6%. I get my chicken walker Raven with it's two PPC's and **** a similar target and I'm pulling 8-10% per strike. I don't see why a mech I paid AUD$40 IRL for with millions upon millions worth of tech does less damage than a 1 million POS Raven I bought while in cadet stages, but hey, if there's one thing we can all agree on it's that the devs really don't seem to care for player feedback. I am starting to wonder if they even play the game now though.

You are comparing apples and bannanas here. LRMs would allow you to fire indirectly out of cover meaning you will not take any dmg in return if done right. 1KM is not the best figting distance for them either.High dmg on a 2xppc build(the max number of ppcs that grant a substained dps + and not a boat for that matter) is mostly a matter of poor aim and does not indicate effectiveness.
That being said boating builds suck most of the time since they are limited to a single role and the mobility of a stalker does not allow you to get out of situations your boating build is not suited for. Sometimes less is worth more. Try combining 2 ppc with 2xLRM 10 and you might see increased performance - though not raw dmg neccesaryly since LRM tend to aim better then you obviously do.

[Konril]

bashpr0mpt, on 11 June 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

Does Artemis add 20% more DPS? If it provides less than a 20% boost then it is more worthwhile using LRM-10's without arty by far. The problem is, like everything to do with this game, the devs give us EXTREMELY vague details and if it weren't for intelligent players snooping through source code we would have NO real hard figures to base things off realistically. The beagle, artemis, tag, etc, all the perk type modules are still vague as hell as to what they do. I mean from what I saw a guy demonstrate from the code of the game the beagle didn't really even look worth using.

Does Artemis add a hard % boost to damage? Or a guestimate value? From the sounds, 20% is a pretty big number, so I am assuming that LRM10 boating is vastly superior and saves you almost a million cbill and god knows how many tonnes and slots!!

Yes, since I wrote this thing back in November LRMs have gone through a LOT of balance changes. But I can at least tell you, or maybe "show" you about the DPS of Artemis vs. non-Artemis. I would love to do a full updated LRM report, but should that happen, it's going to be in its own thread with an obvious date on it.

Launcher: Artemis LRM 15, 720 ammo (4 tons)
Vehicle: Trebuchet 7M
Target: Left side of a testing-grounds Atlas



Result: Target dead in 1 min. 12 sec (72 sec). 240 missiles used. (Estimated 16 shots, & 68 sec. actual firing.)

Launcher: Standard LRM 20, 720 ammo (4 tons)
Vehicle: Centurion D, 10 tube hard point
Target: Left side of a testing grounds Atlas



Result: Target dead in 2 min. 14 sec (134 sec). 460 missiles used. (Estimated 23 shots, over 110 sec. of actual firing.)

It looks like pretty clear results, doesn't it? I've actually tried to get the worst angle possible to simulate an Atlas torso-twisting to use its arm as a shield. Directly from the front at about 275m, it seems to take 75 of the Artemis missiles, or 120 of the standard missiles to take down that Atlas. That does suggest that the Artemis missiles have at least 37% more accuracy, and can be as good as 91% better depending on the situation. But this applies for LRM launchers with at least 10 tubes.

And that's the current answer to that specific question, on this day of June 11, 2013. I'll try to re-test soon and make a new post with more detail in a new thread. But I'm not making any guarantees.