53 replies to this topic

[Sybreed]

It seems PGI aren't seeing the issue from the correct angle.

Any decent weapons, if boated, can become OP. (well, except for MGs and Flamers)

It was medium lasers, then small lasers, then LRMs during closed beta. SRMs were also borderline OP and got their trajectory nerfed (bigger spread). Now, SSRMs are the OP weapon thx to boating Cats.

But all these weapons were declared OP when boats started abusing the hell out of them. No one would have ever dared declare the AC/2, AC/5 as OP weapons. Actually, everyone said they were just fine for the last 2 patches.

Now, the CTF-4X comes in, everyone starts boating these ACs and the OP accusations are thrown left and right.

One consequence of PGI nerfing the weapons themselves are that non-boats become less viable. When they "hotfixed" (and broke hit detection) LRMs, my Centurion and my Catapult were borderline useless and I switched to SSRMs on my Centurion. Now, SSRMs will be nerfed again thanks to StreakCats and my Centurion will feel it again. Did anyone accused me of using an OP Centurion build? Nope.

Still, the point is that not everyone are boaters, and these people shouldn't be punished for the few who are. Let's just hope PGI does the right thing...

Edited by Sybreed, 25 November 2012 - 06:30 PM.

[xRaeder]

Been saying this for awhile.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sybreed, on 25 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

It seems PGI aren't seeing the issue from the correct angle.

Any decent weapons, if boated, can become OP. (well, except for MGs and Flamers)*SNIP*

HE, Would like to talk to you!!!!

[Roughneck45]

The problem with that is that boats have their place in the game.

Custom built mechs with one goal in mind are a good thing for deep team play.

The problem comes when these boats can wreck pug matches on their own. Its going to be a long road, and a lot of tweaks to get everything feeling just right. Even when things are right, something is STILL going to be OP. Its just the nature of competitive games.

Edited by Roughneck45, 25 November 2012 - 06:43 PM.

[Sybreed]

Roughneck45, on 25 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

The problem with that is that boats have their place in the game.

Custom built mechs with one goal in mind are a good thing for deep team play.

The problem comes when these boats can wreck pug matches on their own. Its going to be a long road, and a lot of tweaks to get everything feeling just right. Even when things are right, something is STILL going to be OP. Its just the nature of competitive games.

don't try to change the issue and say PUGs are the problem. A boat, in a group or not, vs a group or not, can wreck matches on their own if played by a decent pilot.

[shintakie]

How do you propose to stop boatin while not limitin customization and not breakin stock variants that actually were boats?

[Roughneck45]

Sybreed, on 25 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

don't try to change the issue and say PUGs are the problem. A boat, in a group or not, vs a group or not, can wreck matches on their own if played by a decent pilot.

Tell that to LRM boats.

Laser boats are not too hard to deal with now.

Gauss boats are always going to be deadly, but they are going to make them more delicate, so we will see how that goes.

I can only assume you are complaining about streak boats, which i think are out of hand right now. Either reduce the shake and disorienting effects or reduce the damage. Having both with the ez aim is just too much.

A good pilot will always be effective, no matter what they bring. The real issue is that when boating, you should have a very clear disadvantage. Those disadvantages are not all equal, like gausscats only being as bad as the pilots aim, compared to a laser boat actually having to worry about heat and holding their aim to get full effect.

Besides, the only way to eliminate boating would be to completely remove the mech lab. Would you want that? I hope not...

Edited by Roughneck45, 25 November 2012 - 06:52 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sybreed, on 25 November 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

don't try to change the issue and say PUGs are the problem. A boat, in a group or not, vs a group or not, can wreck matches on their own if played by a decent pilot.

How do you ruin a game where the objective is to kill every sorry SoS on the other team? I know a guy who destroyed 10 Omni Mechs (all classes) with 10 Piranha! Imagine how embarrassed those Clanners were when a bunch of Machine Gun Boats killed their precious Omnis!!!

[Sybreed]

shintakie, on 25 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

How do you propose to stop boatin while not limitin customization and not breakin stock variants that actually were boats?

I don't have a precise answer, but I would perhaps tweak the hardpoint system a little to give a bigger disadvantage to boaters.

Roughneck45, on 25 November 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Tell that to LRM boats.

Laser boats are not too hard to deal with now.

Gauss boats are always going to be deadly, but they are going to make them more delicate, so we will see how that goes.

I can only assume you are complaining about streak boats, which i think are out of hand right now. Either reduce the shake and disorienting effects or reduce the damage. Having both with the ez aim is just too much.

A good pilot will always be effective, no matter what they bring. The real issue is that when boating, you should have a very clear disadvantage. Those disadvantages are not all equal, like gausscats only being as bad as the pilots aim, compared to a laser boat actually having to worry about heat and holding their aim to get full effect.

Besides, the only way to eliminate boating would be to completely remove the mech lab. Would you want that? I hope not...

No, I don't want that.

And no, I'm not complaining about streak cats, as I haven't found them to be too much of a problem (got lucky so far I guess). What I'm "complaining" about is how PGI always punishes non-boaters because of actual boaters. It's like a teacher punishing the whole class because one student cheated on an exam...

[Bagheera]

My favorite part of all of this is after months of "Ballistic weapons are pointless!" comments, the 4X comes along and everyone wants to nerf it. Rediculous people, make up your mind.

[Roughneck45]

Sybreed, on 25 November 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

It's like a teacher punishing the whole class because one student cheated on an exam...

And what punishment would that be?

My favorite rides are all mixed loadouts. The only thing that annoys me slighty with the weapon changes so far is the crap spread or SRMs, but it is a minor detail, and I can adapt and deal with it.

I understand the sentiment of punishing non boaters by nerfing a boated weapon, but that is literally impossible to avoid.

Edited by Roughneck45, 25 November 2012 - 07:06 PM.

[Ghosth]

Don't nerf the weapons, add a penalty for firing more than 1 of any given weapon in a group.
Make it add a reasonably small amount of heat. Less for smaller weapons, more for bigger.

So firing 8-9 medium lasers could be significant.

Encourage diversity, don't sit there and play the flavor of the week, or whack-a-mole. (which weapon gets nerfed/buffed this weak.)

Get ahead of the game.

[xRaeder]

Bagheera, on 25 November 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

My favorite part of all of this is after months of "Ballistic weapons are pointless!" comments, the 4X comes along and everyone wants to nerf it. Rediculous people, make up your mind.

That kinda proves the point about the boating being the problem, not the weapons themselves.

[shintakie]

Bagheera, on 25 November 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

My favorite part of all of this is after months of "Ballistic weapons are pointless!" comments, the 4X comes along and everyone wants to nerf it. Rediculous people, make up your mind.

That's not really how the the progression worked though.

Originally ballistic weapons were pointless, unless they were gauss or UAC/5 before jams, because they actually were pointless. They did **** poor damage, gave too much heat, were weaker than other more Gauss like weapons, and had terrible fire rates.

Granted, all of these still apply to the AC/20 and AC/5 while marginally still applyin to the AC/10 (it has its uses I've found), but then they buffed the AC/2 to actually be a viable weapon.

Edited by shintakie, 25 November 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[Colonel Tie]

nerf nerf nerf ... nerf Gauss, nerf Streaks, nerf LRM, nerf Boats, nerf Lights ... nerf nerf nerf ... boring!

[Patrick Wolf]

Ghosth, on 25 November 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

Don't nerf the weapons, add a penalty for firing more than 1 of any given weapon in a group.
Make it add a reasonably small amount of heat. Less for smaller weapons, more for bigger.

So firing 8-9 medium lasers could be significant.

Encourage diversity, don't sit there and play the flavor of the week, or whack-a-mole. (which weapon gets nerfed/buffed this weak.)

Get ahead of the game.

Chain fire FTW then? Seriously tho, this plan of adding heat for using multiple weapons at once wouldnt really help at all, people would either just get really good at chainfiring or drop a laser or two for more heatsinks.

I personally dont see the problems with boating, what happens when the nova/supernova come in? 12 er medium lasers or 6 er large lasers? laser boats right there in canon.

It isnt just the problem with boats imo, it is the fact that we have experienced players, some who have been playing for almost 6 months now, dropping against casual players who only just got into the game. That is a huge problem right there.

[Roughneck45]

Patrick Wolf, on 25 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

It isnt just the problem with boats imo, it is the fact that we have experienced players, some who have been playing for almost 6 months now, dropping against casual players who only just got into the game. That is a huge problem right there.

That is the motivation for half the posts in the forums, im sure lol

[Bagheera]

xRaeder, on 25 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

That kinda proves the point about the boating being the problem, not the weapons themselves.

Not really, see below. I'm pointing out the falsehood of 90% of nerf-calls on game forums. The 4X is a scapegoat right now because it is new, it is first heavy that can effectively hold more than 2 ballistic weapons of a decent size, and those two things combine to mean that people notice it more.

shintakie, on 25 November 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

That's not really how the the progression worked though.

Originally ballistic weapons were pointless, unless they were gauss or UAC/5 before jams, because they actually were pointless. They did **** poor damage, gave too much heat, were weaker than other more Gauss like weapons, and had terrible fire rates.

Granted, all of these still apply to the AC/20 and AC/5 while marginally still applyin to the AC/10 (it has its uses I've found), but then they buffed the AC/2 to actually be a viable weapon.

False. Ballistics have been problematic, but hardly useless. The AC20, even before having its heat adjusted was always deadly in the right hands. The Ultra (once double-tap was activated) has always been a go to, jamming or not. Really only the AC2/5/10 were lackluster in closed beta, and changes came to those things over time.

My point was that people were, incorrectly, complaining about how ballistics were useless (problematic in some ways, sure, but far from ineffectual) and now that there is a platform that can finally boat them effectively - which also happens to be brand new - suddenly it's swung the other way and its ERMAGHERED REMOVE THE 4X!!!

I'm sorry guys, but you're talking about a mech with MAX speed somewhere just shy of frozen molasses and to reach that speed (and carry 4 ACs with decent ammo) is more than likely carting an XL engine behind side torso hit boxes the size of a Commando screaming "Alpha Strike HERE!!!" with big giant flashing arrows all around it.

If you can't think of a counter to that, nerfing mech chassis isn't going to help your game experience.

I love my 4X, but it's hardly OP. They die and die fast in all sorts of situations.

Edited by Bagheera, 25 November 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[Drakken]

This is not a new issue, really. I don't see why no one saw this coming a mile away! Any time you have the opportunity to customize the loadout of your mech without explicit rules restricting it, boating will occur. I agree that a certain amount of boating is needed in the game. LRM boats truly do have their place, and if ECM would have been introduced concurrently with artemis, the affect of LRM boats would have been negated.

I also agree that the weapons should not be nerfed - especially when not all of the other equipment is in. The other equipment that is available goes a long way towards balancing against certain type of boating (the aforementioned artemis issue comes to mind).

As for streakcats, the answer is one of those "duh" solutions, really: decrease the number of missile slots on it. I mean, really...or here's an idea...blow its darn arms off! Without missile pods, there can't be any missiles....nuff said about that, I think.

For every one person that cries "foul" about boating, there are three tactics that could render that particular boat inert, or less effective - again, assuming all the equipment is in. So no...don't nerf the weapons. Heck, don't even nerf the boats yet! Just get the rest of the darn equipment in and see how it all balances out first! THEN start tweaking the balance. You cannot look at the game as it is now and start whining...at least wait until all the equipment is in before you do...

[Czardread]

http://mwomercs.com/...streak-control/

so far the best proposition i've read on the issue.