53 replies to this topic

[Eumenes]

I can attest that 4X's do die and die often. It has weaknesses, and often is stripped of armor after a slug match with another heavy, multiple kills is rare. I've found an ok build for mine now (AC/10, Gauss, MLas), but I won't keep it around once I max the general pilot tree. My 1X is much more fun to use.

Back to topic, the best suggestions I've seen for balancing streaks is to either make breaking lock happen quickly when the crosshairs are not on target, and delaying the firing rate a bit. Another option could be increasing the lock-on time.

- Eumenes of Cardia

[Lefty Lucy]

The OP is simply dead wrong. Let's do a simple thought experiment: would a CAT A1 be very scary with 3x SRM4 and 3xSRM2 (non-streak). No. It wouldn't. It is still technically an "SRM boat" and has just as much tonnage devoted to SRM launchers as the streak-cat does to SSRM launchers.

"Boating" is not the problem. The weapon is the problem.

[Czardread]

Drakken, on 25 November 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

As for streakcats, the answer is one of those "duh" solutions, really: decrease the number of missile slots on it. I mean, really...or here's an idea...blow its darn arms off! Without missile pods, there can't be any missiles....nuff said about that, I think.

yeah sure, reduce it to 4 slots so it can be EXACTLY like its other variant, except with no laser hardpoints and by default worse than the other variant. or yeahm just blown theyr armas off, it's just so easy to aim your dual ac/20 and shoot each arm while being rocked the **** out and with black smoke covering your screen. and those pods are just paper tissue when fired with anything else rights? THAT'S THE DUMBEST ADVICE I EVER HEARD. unless you're firing at an static cat with LL or better, it will NEVER be just walk over there and shoot it, and with any lights you be dead before you have time to aim. the only 2 tactics effective against streak cats is: mount a heavy hit sniper and core him before he closes in or wait till its attacking someone else and core him from behind, wich is impossible to do if he's playingwith ANY level of cooperation on he's side.

Drakken, on 25 November 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

For every one person that cries "foul" about boating, there are three tactics that could render that particular boat inert, or less effective - again, assuming all the equipment is in. So no...don't nerf the weapons. Heck, don't even nerf the boats yet! Just get the rest of the darn equipment in and see how it all balances out first! THEN start tweaking the balance. You cannot look at the game as it is now and start whining...at least wait until all the equipment is in before you do...

or we could nerf the streaks NOW and buff then again when the rest of the equipment is optmized and it becames too weak.

honestly, just put a lock on penalty for multi streak builds like suggested in the thread i mentioned above, streak thenselves are fine, is the streak boat that needs nerfing.

[Corvus Antaka]

stock does not mesh well with c6. anyone PLAYING mechwarrior games the last 20 years KNOWS this.

figure it out.

the hardpoints on certain mechs are the problem. the 4X has 2 ballistic slots visually, it does not need 4 ballistic ports.

the A1 is the same. ditto with the machine gun /dual gauss K2 that should be fielding 2 ppc, not dual gauss.

[HRR Insanity]

Boating isn't the problem. It's weapon convergence that's the problem.

8 MLs aren't an issue if they don't hit the same spot.

Add Cone of Fire for groups of weapons or weapons fired in close temporal proximity.

Boats fixed. Weapons back to TT values. Armor back to TT values. Game fixed.

I've been asking for this since Beta.

Insanity

[Czardread]

Lefty Lucy, on 25 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

The OP is simply dead wrong. Let's do a simple thought experiment: would a CAT A1 be very scary with 3x SRM4 and 3xSRM2 (non-streak). No. It wouldn't. It is still technically an "SRM boat" and has just as much tonnage devoted to SRM launchers as the streak-cat does to SSRM launchers.

"Boating" is not the problem. The weapon is the problem.

disagree Lucy, neither the "boating" nor the weapon is the problem, the streakboat cat is the problem. lock on penalty for multiple streaks seems like a great solution to deal with precise problem.

[Drakken]

Czardread, on 25 November 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

yeah sure, reduce it to 4 slots so it can be EXACTLY like its other variant, except with no laser hardpoints and by default worse than the other variant. or yeahm just blown theyr armas off, it's just so easy to aim your dual ac/20 and shoot each arm while being rocked the **** out and with black smoke covering your screen. and those pods are just paper tissue when fired with anything else rights? THAT'S THE DUMBEST ADVICE I EVER HEARD. unless you're firing at an static cat with LL or better, it will NEVER be just walk over there and shoot it, and with any lights you be dead before you have time to aim. the only 2 tactics effective against streak cats is: mount a heavy hit sniper and core him before he closes in or wait till its attacking someone else and core him from behind, wich is impossible to do if he's playingwith ANY level of cooperation on he's side.

Exciteable, aren't you? LOL....so here's the deal.

1. I do it all the time in regards to shooting pods off cats. It's not that hard, and there's comparatively less armor on an "arm" than a torso on most (if not all) mechs. It's not my fault you're a lousy shot. If you need schooling, I'd be willing to show you. Better yet, get in a streakcat and I'll show you THAT way. I could use the practice anyway.

2. If you can't do it, then get in a team. I'm sure your team mate would be willing to lend a helping hand. There's even a free teamspeak server, and its easy to drop in and find a group. I do it all the time, and it's a great way to meat some interesting people. Who knows, you might even find your manners along the way.

either way...suit yourself. I don't give a flyin' flip. See you on the battlefield.

Edited by Drakken, 25 November 2012 - 08:07 PM.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

I'm not sure that Boating in itself is necessarily bad... nor is everything about certain boated weapons... cheesebuilds are the problems and they are damn tough to tackle without nerfing non cheese builds as well. I'm a light pilot and I happen to ride jenners (for the simple reason that I spent the time to grind out the xp on them and dont feel like grinding out a different chassis for the same playstyle), that being said the min-maxed 6sl, 140kph, JJ exploiting build is most definitely a cheese build. The problem being that anything done to 'balance' out the cheesebuild makes other honest builds less viable as well.

Further limiting hardpoints is a dangerous game in my opinion, as most TT battletech players really liked the possibilities present in customizing their mechs. There is a point to be made that canon didn't allow for much IS customization at all and certainly not easily, but still reducing customization should be a truly last resort.

[Kadassa]

Not trying to sound like a jerk here but the people that keep complaining about these boats the streak cats in particular just need to learn how to stay out of there range. I mean seriously how hard is it to stay 300 meters away from them and use medium/long range weaponry its like using LRMs at close range only in reverse. They don't do any damage past 300 meters right? Or am I wrong. So easy way to deal with streak cats is keep out of there range and light em up. They'll have at most lasers to shoot at you then... The people who complain about boats of any kind are the ones who don't want to figure out how to effectively deal with them.

[Drakken]

Kadassa, on 25 November 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Not trying to sound like a jerk here but the people that keep complaining about these boats the streak cats in particular just need to learn how to stay out of there range. I mean seriously how hard is it to stay 300 meters away from them and use medium/long range weaponry its like using LRMs at close range only in reverse. They don't do any damage past 300 meters right? Or am I wrong. So easy way to deal with streak cats is keep out of there range and light em up. They'll have at most lasers to shoot at you then... The people who complain about boats of any kind are the ones who don't want to figure out how to effectively deal with them.

THANK YOU! I thought of that after I posted...glad someone else said it.

[Rhent]

Roughneck45, on 25 November 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Tell that to LRM boats.

Laser boats are not too hard to deal with now.

Gauss boats are always going to be deadly, but they are going to make them more delicate, so we will see how that goes.

I can only assume you are complaining about streak boats, which i think are out of hand right now. Either reduce the shake and disorienting effects or reduce the damage. Having both with the ez aim is just too much.

A good pilot will always be effective, no matter what they bring. The real issue is that when boating, you should have a very clear disadvantage. Those disadvantages are not all equal, like gausscats only being as bad as the pilots aim, compared to a laser boat actually having to worry about heat and holding their aim to get full effect.

Besides, the only way to eliminate boating would be to completely remove the mech lab. Would you want that? I hope not...

Specialized boats are very easy to kill. The reason why boats exist is due to the different firing properties of the weapons and having to lead your target for AC/Gauss/PPC and directly firing and holding your fire for Laser and having to maintain a lock for Streaks or LRM's and lastly having to do a longer lead and wait for the fire to take place with a SRM.

I run boats exclusively, however I know their strengths and weaknesses and I only play them. I don't charge a LRM Boat with an AC/20 Boat at 1K. I do however follow behind the brawlers and let them open up and then pop in to start dropping dual AC/20 shots to get some quick kills before everyone focus on me and take me out.

LRM Boats:
-Send in fast moving light mechs to the rear lines and the LRM Boats can do very little to defeat them. The exception is a Catapult w/ 4 Streaks as back up. It then forces the Light Mechs to actually target the Cats arms and blow them off. Support with your teams LRM's and a Gauss/PPC Snipe in the torso before the lights charge in

Gauss Boats
-Send in fast moving light mechs to the rear lines and the LRM Boats can do very little to defeat them. The exception is a Catapult w/ 4 Streaks as back up. It then forces the Light Mechs to actually target the Cats arms and blow them off. Support with your teams LRM's and a Gauss/PPC Snipe in the torso before the lights charge in. At the very least, the light mechs will force the Gauss Boats to expend their extremely limited ammo reserves OR take them out of the fight long enough for other mechs to close and kill them.

Streak Boats
If they are a Catapult boating 6, SHOOT THEIR ARMS off, its easy to do seeing how big they are and then they are useless.

AC/20 Boat
They move exceedingly slow and have a range of 270, max 540. You can very easily LRM one to death OR destroy their AC/20's. Once the torso armor is stripped, the AC/20 is exceedingly easy to destroy. You aren't going to break 50KPH with a AC/20 Gauss Cat boat and have decent ammo to fight.

AC/5 or Ultra AC/5 Boats
If its a 4X, you shoot off their arms, again problem solved. The Ultra's also have a heat and jam issue to boot.

[Justin Xang Allard]

xRaeder, on 25 November 2012 - 07:15 PM, said:

That kinda proves the point about the boating being the problem, not the weapons themselves.

really should just change your tactics. if they nerf boats then players in a team will simply add the weapon to each mech to avoid the penalty. if you just shoot the boats then the problem is solved. streak cats are rediculously easy to disarm. litterally.

[Jonnara]

Sybreed, on 25 November 2012 - 06:30 PM, said:

It seems PGI aren't seeing the issue from the correct angle.

Any decent weapons, if boated, can become OP. (well, except for MGs and Flamers)

It was medium lasers, then small lasers, then LRMs during closed beta. SRMs were also borderline OP and got their trajectory nerfed (bigger spread). Now, SSRMs are the OP weapon thx to boating Cats.

But all these weapons were declared OP when boats started abusing the hell out of them. No one would have ever dared declare the AC/2, AC/5 as OP weapons. Actually, everyone said they were just fine for the last 2 patches.

Now, the CTF-4X comes in, everyone starts boating these ACs and the OP accusations are thrown left and right.

One consequence of PGI nerfing the weapons themselves are that non-boats become less viable. When they "hotfixed" (and broke hit detection) LRMs, my Centurion and my Catapult were borderline useless and I switched to SSRMs on my Centurion. Now, SSRMs will be nerfed again thanks to StreakCats and my Centurion will feel it again. Did anyone accused me of using an OP Centurion build? Nope.

Still, the point is that not everyone are boaters, and these people shouldn't be punished for the few who are. Let's just hope PGI does the right thing...

/in-joke
Yeah us Australians have been sick and tired of the boating issues, we seems to get 3 or 4 a week with around 200 people on each.

They have no ID/passport and want to jump the queue to immigrate here.

Need to bring back temporarily protecting visas under the Howard Government and have only just open off shore processing again now. /in-joke

[Kadassa]

Well I take it back the slower mechs would have problems with them and the shaking is a bit annoying but I always manage to outrun them in my Cent then just keep my distance and chew em up with my Large Lasers on my CN-9 AL and once you identify one call it out so people know its there they get ganged up on pretty quickly after that

[Khobai]

Quote

Boating isn't the problem. It's weapon convergence that's the problem.

This. Convergence has always been the problem.

[Rhadamanthus]

Patrick Wolf, on 25 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

Chain fire FTW then? Seriously tho, this plan of adding heat for using multiple weapons at once wouldnt really help at all, people would either just get really good at chainfiring or drop a laser or two for more heatsinks.

I personally dont see the problems with boating, what happens when the nova/supernova come in? 12 er medium lasers or 6 er large lasers? laser boats right there in canon.

It isnt just the problem with boats imo, it is the fact that we have experienced players, some who have been playing for almost 6 months now, dropping against casual players who only just got into the game. That is a huge problem right there.

LoL you forgetting the other boats out there like for instance the Kraken with 10 ultra ac/2 and I cant remember off the top of my head but I am sure there are other boats out there that are built around missile launchers

[Trauglodyte]

Kadassa, on 25 November 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

Not trying to sound like a jerk here but the people that keep complaining about these boats the streak cats in particular just need to learn how to stay out of there range. I mean seriously how hard is it to stay 300 meters away from them and use medium/long range weaponry its like using LRMs at close range only in reverse. They don't do any damage past 300 meters right? Or am I wrong. So easy way to deal with streak cats is keep out of there range and light em up. They'll have at most lasers to shoot at you then... The people who complain about boats of any kind are the ones who don't want to figure out how to effectively deal with them.

That's all fine and good in heavy mediums through assaults. But when you're piloting a light scout or a Cicada scout, having an equally fast mech on your behind with Streaks means the end and there isn't anything that you can do about it. And if you happen to join the assault and turn the corner (see Lake City) and come face to face with a Streak Cat, a Cent sports two Steaks, or the prior mentioned Light Streaks, you're just as screwed. There just isn't anway to get clear of them and until ECM comes around or AMS has an effect and LOS breaks lock or the lock time is lengthened (I like the linked suggest, btw), Streaks are going to be abused and made more OP.

As for Boating, it is a problem. It is a problem the second that PGI allowed people to go off path with their mech designs. Aside from a few specifically designed mechs (Swayback, Pirahna, Vulcan, etc), mechs are designed to fill a niche or they're designed around long distance engagement and short distance engagement. In the later, you don't fire your heavy ranged weapons when your target is in medium or short ranges. Players don't play like that, hence all the ******** about heat sinks, nor do they design like that. Its why there are Cats with two streaks and 4 lrg lasers in the nose and bastardized designs like that. If PGI were smart, they'd put size limitations on the hard points or restrict the weapon available to the hard points. There is such thing as artistic freedom and there is such a thing as pushing it beyond rediculous.

[Nanolight]

The boat is not the issue, it is the streaks them selves.

You can get equally good results when using a Commando or Jenner, but that could be more related to the lag shields they seem to have; I haven't made up my mind yet how much it contributes.

[BoomDog]

My problem with streaks is that you can be a TERRIBLE player and still hit every time.

I once spectated a Jenner pilot with a couple lasers and a streak. He was lucky to even nick his target with the lasers, but he'd fire that streak, no matter how far off target he was, and still hit him.

[topgun505]

The only 'boat' I've been seeing which doesn't make sense is the 6-hardpoint Catapult.

The laser-boat Hunchback at least makes sense because it was DESIGNED from the onset to be exactly that.

But the Cat has what .... 2 LRM-15 or 2 LRM-20s in those arms to start with? How then does that translate to 6 missile hardpoints??? Are they saying 1 LRM-15 = 3 LRM-5 launchers? That is rather silly. Yes it would actually be 1 ton lighter to do so but it would be less heat efficient as well so would be better (from an engineering standpoint) to just make it a single rack launcher.