13 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

There are some variants of these mechs that are glaringly more awesome then the others, and available during 3049.

The AWS-9M moves at 64.8kph, has a trio of ER PPC's, Streak SRM's, and is cooled by double heatsinks.
The CN9-D moves at 97.2kph, uses an LBX-10 and an Artemis IV FCS for the LRM launcher.
The CPLT-K3 replaces the 2 PPC's with ER versions, and replaces heatsinks with double heatsinks.
The HBK-5N adds CASE and DHS.
The AS7-K is... well, not available at launch but very soon after. Too much LosTech to count.

Microtransactions allow you to purchase C-Bills with real money, and some people will undoubtedly do it. It is stated by PGI themselves that you cannot "purchase tactical advantages". Will these versions only be available via excessive grinding, will they cost 50+ million C-bills, will they even be allowed? How will they be balanced?

Edited by Zakatak, 06 May 2012 - 10:22 PM.

[Sassori]

Well in general, lostech isn't a damage upgrade over original tech. ER Large Laser still does 8 damage, ER PPC still does 10, etc etc.

The difference is in range and heat, an ER Large Laser generates 12 heat for that 8 damage, 15 heat for an ER PPC. The biggest advantage that Lostech brings is XL Engines (For those that want to risk destruction at /any/ torso coring) and double heat sinks.

Inner Sphere Ferro Fibrous isn't all that great and takes up 14 critical slots, Endo Steel (While better than FF in my opinion) also takes up 14 critical slots. XL-Engines take up 6 additional crit slots. So by just having an XL-Engine and Endo-Steel internal structure you have 20 less crit slots than otherwise.

Then when you move to double heat sinks they take up /3/ crit slots each, so once you go past what your engine can hold on it's own, you're eating up tons of crit slots there as well.

This is why there is a portion of people who don't use Lostech weaponry. The damage output is the same as the old stuff, and the heat isn't worth it to them. Just because something is newer, doesn't always mean it's better. Especially in the world of Battletech.

[Azantia]

I have found the following to be true :

Even with the amount of HARDCORE battletech fans around here, the majority do not understand the logic or rules regarding the construction of battlemechs because many of them did not get into custom designs. Alot of players go ape-**** when you start mentioning the helm memory core updates, lostech and all the other "non-level-1" tech. I played in several battletech tabletop leagues and I can tell you, ER weaponry, and XL engines dont make as much of a difference as you think. In fact, XL engines in the tabletop (and I hope in MWO) make you so easy to take out, that half the time, they are not worth the weight.

I think the biggest glaring issue people SHOULD have a problem with more than ANYTHING else is Double Heat sinks. You can give a design double heat sinks and not add a single heat sink and be able to dissipate 20 heat per round, which is insane via tabletop, let alone add 1 to 3 tons of heat sinks to gain 22 to 26 heat dissipation, which mind you, if you carry a balanced payload is usually alot more than you will ever need.

Think about it this way : The Catapult CPLT-K2 utilizes 2 PPCs, 2 Medium Lasers and 2 Machine Guns. It is backed by 20 single heat sinks, which is 10 extra tons of heat sinks. By giving this design double heat sinks, you can have the same level of heat dissipation (20) and free up 10 tons to go towards engine, weapon and armor upgrades.

XL engines do allow lighter mechs to push higher speeds which can allow them to be more difficult to be hit, and with the space saved you can invest more in armor or electronics, however, to say that a AWS-9M, CN9-D, CPLT-K3 or AS7-K is "glaringly more awesome" than other designs is hogwash.

A CPLT-K2 vs a CPLT-K3 will come down to who is the better pilot

A CN9-A vs a CN9-D will come down to who is the better pilot

so on and so forth.

to get technical :

The difference in a PPC vs ER PPC = Same damage, +5 heat for 7/14/23 as opposed to 6/12/18 = each hex 30m = 150 meter difference.

Is it an advantage?

Yep!

Is it match ruining like say world of tanks where you can barely even hit a tank 2 tiers above you and they can one shot you? hardly.

okay my opponent has a 150 meter advantage on me, I need to maneuver under cover, bring myself into 540 meter range (by tabletop ranges) and then I will actually have the advantage, as my weapon builds less heat (unless of course he has double heat sinks).

AC 10 vs LB 10-X AC is even less. The LB 10-X if mounting cluster rounds can find gaps in armor really well (if they actually implement this?) but using the slug rounds is nothing more than a slightly longer range AC, which weights 1 ton less (which is the biggest difference). Again, not match breaking.

Once again I before I go, I will point to double heat sinks as the biggest advantage one gets from "LosTech / Star League" technology, followed very closely by the re-discovering of the Gauss Rifle, Beagle Active Probe (if you played double blind for table top, which is very rare and hard to do), Guardian ECM Suite (which blocks things like targeting computers, streak missiles, Artemis launchers etc) and Anti-Missile System. If you do not believe me, take any other "level 1" design and add double heat sinks. Take any other "level 1" design and add ER / Star League weaponry upgrades. You tell me which one is better.

Mind > Body > Tools of War.

LosTech isnt that big of a deal. Especially when...here is a shocker....you will get it too...eventually.

Edited by Azantia, 06 May 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Cifu]

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Well in general, lostech isn't a damage upgrade over original tech. ER Large Laser still does 8 damage, ER PPC still does 10, etc etc.

The difference is in range and heat, an ER Large Laser generates 12 heat for that 8 damage, 15 heat for an ER PPC. The biggest advantage that Lostech brings is XL Engines (For those that want to risk destruction at /any/ torso coring) and double heat sinks.

Well, those two (XL engine and DHS) are more than enough, but those weapons are still have some issue, the extend range means longer range, and better option for snipe. You forgot to mention the UAC/5 and the Pulse Lasers, where the damage output is doubled, so i believe yea, the lostech are still a very big leap for the combat value...

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Inner Sphere Ferro Fibrous isn't all that great and takes up 14 critical slots, Endo Steel (While better than FF in my opinion) also takes up 14 critical slots. XL-Engines take up 6 additional crit slots. So by just having an XL-Engine and Endo-Steel internal structure you have 20 less crit slots than otherwise.

Well, that an big issue in a heavy or assault mech, in a light or medium mech, you probably run out of free tons faster, than run out the free criticals. And only the XL engine means an average heavy or assault mech got at least 9,5 tons extra free weight (count as 300 rated engine)!

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Then when you move to double heat sinks they take up /3/ crit slots each, so once you go past what your engine can hold on it's own, you're eating up tons of crit slots there as well.

Again: this is a big issue when you got an assault or heavy mech (but still make those Mech a very formadible weapons in the comparison of the TR3025 tech level 1), with lots and lots of weapons, but not an big issue an light or medium mech.

Christopher Dayson, on 06 May 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

This is why there is a portion of people who don't use Lostech weaponry. The damage output is the same as the old stuff, and the heat isn't worth it to them. Just because something is newer, doesn't always mean it's better. Especially in the world of Battletech.

Well, i hardly believe this is true about the XL engines, DHS's and so on, and i point out again: the damage output are not the same in the case of Pulse Lasers and UAC/5, and we need to consider the Arrow IV. artillery too. The extra range of the ER weapons give an another big edge, not to mention the Artemis IV., TAG, C3, ECM, Beagle Active Probe, Anti-Missile System, etc., those things change the face of the battlefield forever...

Edited by Cifu, 06 May 2012 - 11:12 PM.

[El Loco]

Have to agree with Azantia. LosTech, though powerfull, isn't a deal breaker. DHS can ruin your game, if your opponent can add another weapon or two to its loadout without reducing heat efficency, but on the other side, it's easier to take out DHS because they take up 3 times the space of normal ones. XL-engines are something I almost always only used for 'Mechs above 70t. Before that, I usually ended up with too little armor protection to effectively neutralise the disadvantage of 3 engine crits per side torso. And if I maxed out armor, I had only the firepwer of a medium 'Mech. Rather than using XL-engines I used FF and ES instead. The extra range of several of the LosTech weapons can be advantageous, but I'd say it depends on the circumstances. In close quarter combat or any battlefield with plenty of cover, additional range doesn't matter but the additional heat does. As for Gauss, electronic warfare equipment, pulse lasers and Ultra-AC's, they tend to be either bulky, heavy, or ammo inefficient or a mix of it. The pulse laser won't get its bonus 2 on die rolls, which made it an incredible weapon in TT.

But this discussion is more or less futile. The base assumption is that the game is broken and in need of balancing. The evidence for this assumption comes from either TT (which rules can't be applied 1:1 to a video game) or from the previous MW title. In both cases the evidence presented is invalid, as the object we deal with is 1) not a 1:1 TT adaptation, and 2) not our father's MW. When it comes to the development of MWO I have to quote Darth Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing!

[Cifu]

El Loco, on 07 May 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

I find your lack of faith disturbing!

We are bored to death, so need to do something until:

1.: We have the game, or at least a beta.
2.: We have straight answers for such questions, and we can shift to "ohnononono, this thing is broken and unbalanced, and i hate you!" type of topics.

Edited by Cifu, 07 May 2012 - 12:30 AM.

[autogyro]

Another thing w are forgetting - cost. Lostech trend to be very expensive. I believe the centurion CN9-D is over twice as expensive as the -A. However double heat sinks aren't much more, so im sure they will be the most likely upgrade item.

[William Petersen]

autogyro, on 07 May 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

However double heat sinks aren't much more, so im sure they will be the most likely upgrade item.

Probably one of the biggest problems right here. DHS are a huge part of what over-powered Tech 2.

[Azantia]

Double Heat Sinks are sin, seriously. Glad you guys agree.
Im all for coolant system upgrades and things which might allow you to use them once every few turns (See coolant pods on sarna), or increase your heat efficiency by say, 25 or 50% of your total heat sink value for some tonnage and critical space (20 Heat sinks +50% would be 30 heat dissipation, but would still require 10 tons of heat sinks + the system, way better than 5 tons of DHS) but double heat sinks (as I have always said) are fracking game breaking...

Edited by Azantia, 07 May 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[Siilk]

Zakatak, on 06 May 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Microtransactions allow you to purchase C-Bills with real money

Where did you get that? I don't remember seeing any detailed explanations of what could and what couldn't be bought with real cache...

[William Petersen]

Azantia, on 07 May 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Double Heat Sinks are sin, seriously. Glad you guys agree.
Im all for coolant system upgrades and things which might allow you to use them once every few turns (See coolant pods on sarna), or increase your heat efficiency by say, 25 or 50% of your total heat sink value for some tonnage and critical space (20 Heat sinks +50% would be 30 heat dissipation, but would still require 10 tons of heat sinks + the system, way better than 5 tons of DHS) but double heat sinks (as I have always said) are fracking game breaking...

I think DHS might be balanced if the 'default' heat-sinking capacity was not affected by the type of sinks you have. Just simplify from the TT and give all the Mechs an innate 10 heat they can sink (because honestly, the only mechs that used engines light enough to allocate what were usually internal heat sinks were Lights who have *plenty* of spare crit-space).

If you want more heat dissipation, you have to add heat sinks. Sure you can use those fancy double heat sinks that weight the same tonnage for double the effect, but you're paying three times the crits for them (or two if clan).



I dunno, just an off-the-cuff idea I had a few minutes ago. Might be too stern of a counter-balance (read: "nerf").


EDIT: I had a derp in my thought process. "half the tonnage for double the effect" would be something like quad-heat sinks, or something ridiculous like that. 'tis fixed now. I blame my tired and headache. /nod

Edited by William Petersen, 07 May 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Kanil]

I agree with the whole "10 free heatsinks are single, DHS can't be in engine" balancing. I don't see it happening, though.

Beyond DHS, L2 stuff generally isn't grossly overpowered (discounting Clan tech, of course). XL engines are a little silly, and pretty much most 'mech can fit in and enjoy the benefits of endo-steel... but it's not going to break the game.

There'll definitely be some "pay-to-win" (not an insurmountable advantage though!) on day 1, fortunately it won't be as bad on day 2, and day 3... so on and so forth.

[Randal Waide]

Doesn't matter to me. They said, I believe that matches will be ranked. So tech may have a big deal in what rank you get to shoot at. For me, I can win with either of them. I just need to lose some to figure out what this NEW version of MW is all about. The basics seem to be there I just need time in a cockpit. For that, I will wait patiently for the devs to get it right, and speculate about what I want for lunch instead.

[EDMW CSN]

XL are a huge glass jaw on any mech, feel free to take them, a lucky critical to the side torso can turn your mech from a cool running machine to something that is going 10 overheat.

At least for a standard engine mech, it will take quite a while before the CT gets engine damage.