457 replies to this topic

[Ashla Mason]

The important thing to remember about promotion in the clan is that it occurs primarily because you've shown potential, but if you are consistently getting your command butchered because you either are tactically incompetent or terribad at bidding you aren't moving up past star commander, let alone Khan.

Further, the tricky thing about trials of refusal are that you wind up fighting against everyone who voted against you supported by those who voted with you, thus it's entirely possible that if you relied entirely on your combat skills to rise to the top without any political/tactical acumen then you will find yourself squaring off against 19-3 odds on a regular basis, with the outnumbering side being perfectly happy to accept the near nonexistent glory of such a badly lopsided victory in order to erradicate you.

[Metalfyre]

Void Angel, on 25 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

No flames here! I don't make any promises for the Clanners, though. The Clans are attractive to many players because of their technological superiority. These are the same people selling their Ravens in droves since the patch (nyah-nyah, jerks!) For others, I think the main draw is the illusion of moral standards and rectitude - the rigid honor system; the ritualized warfare which minimizes collateral damage; things like that. The problem is that they're racist, fascist eugenicists - and that's Bad News. We had enough of that crap after about 1945 - remember, eugenics is the pseudoscience which led directly to sterilization of "undesirables," such as the handicapped - oh yes, and the Holocaust. Thus far, the Clans' honor system and their resort to successful genetic augmentation to support their eugenics have succeeded (to various degrees) in limiting such things in their own culture, but that's not going to happen for long if they were to win - because they're also fascists.

Eugenics and ******** are mutually exclusive. You may argue that eugenics WILL lead to ********/sterilization, but the Clans have been adopting eugenics for centuries, and none of this happened. If the Clans believed in the former, given the Clans' drive for perfection and their abhorrence of waste, they could and would have wiped out freeborn citizens and replaced them all with trueborns; laborers genetically engineered so their output is enhanced, scientists with bigger brains etc. The mere fact that freeborn individuals are still occurring during the invasion indicates that not only did this not happen, the Clan leadership has actually allowed for the perpetuation of freeborns. Equating the Clan's system with the **** system is just wrong; ****** had a few years and killed millions. The Clans had centuries, and the freeborn population is still thriving.

I'll respond to the rest of the wall of text when I have more time.

[Ken Fury]

Ashla Mason, on 26 January 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

The important thing to remember about promotion in the clan is that it occurs primarily because you've shown potential, but if you are consistently getting your command butchered because you either are tactically incompetent or terribad at bidding you aren't moving up past star commander, let alone Khan.

Further, the tricky thing about trials of refusal are that you wind up fighting against everyone who voted against you supported by those who voted with you, thus it's entirely possible that if you relied entirely on your combat skills to rise to the top without any political/tactical acumen then you will find yourself squaring off against 19-3 odds on a regular basis, with the outnumbering side being perfectly happy to accept the near nonexistent glory of such a badly lopsided victory in order to erradicate you.

Though the basic requirement for someone to raise is being good at Combat either directly or leading in combat which is not the same thing as governing. Which is only working because

[M4NTiC0R3X]

I like the clans 'cos I was born in an iron womb and created for nothing other than perfection!

[w0rm]

clan mobs drop excellent loot

[Gorthaur]

Well, I mostly read BattleTech novels at first as I started to get into the game. I was really enamored by all of the lore and some of the first books I happened to read were either about mercenaries or the clans. Anyway, what it comes down to me for why I like the clans is because their lore was so much more interesting. The Inner Sphere is something we've all seen for forever: a bunch of Nobles beating each other to a pulp for centuries trying to fight over control of everything. But the clans offered something different compared to a lot of other stuff I have read or watched.

I will just say that one of the first book series I read was the Jade Phoenix Trilogy (hands down one of the best book series I have read) and I have been a Falcon at heart ever since. And the Shadowcat is one of the coolest mechs ever.

Edited by Gorthaur, 26 January 2013 - 11:28 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Tank Boy Ken, on 25 January 2013 - 11:24 PM, said:

How to determine who's going to be a Warrior/get's promoted = Trial of Position

Naturally - in order to qualify as warrior you better be able to fight.

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If you are a suberp warrior you can bid lower and thus gain more attention

That does not give you a whole lot of bonus points towards Clan leadership, nor towards influencing any decisions in the council - it only gives you a better position in the military.

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How to determine who's getting a Bloodname, well combat Trials again and if you got no sponsor = Grand Mellee (yes Combat again)

This gives you certain voting rights and makes you eligible for becoming a khan, but again does not make you more likely to be elected or give you any extra weight when voting.

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While the Khans do get elected, not being able to fight well will result in your Khanship being VERY short.

A khan has to be a warrior (i.e. qualified as such) and has to have Bloodname, other than that their fighting prowess is irrelevant - you can not fight for that posiion, you have to be elected.

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So after this summary would you still stay that the Clans get lead by the bester Combat Guys or by the best Leaders?

Best leaders among the bloodnamed. A person deemed unworthy of the office will not get elected and can not win the position by fighting.

[Ken Fury]

IceSerpent, on 26 January 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

Best leaders among the bloodnamed. A person deemed unworthy of the office will not get elected and can not win the position by fighting.

And how do the Clans approve of someone being the best leader? By his/hers ability to do logistics? Or by his/hers ability to go to war?

[Jaroth Corbett]

Both, but as with anything, politics throws a wrench into the works.

[NocturnalBeast]

GabrielKnight, on 26 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

There was a time in my wayward youth when I was a Clanner at heart, but after a few years away from Battletech I've come back to this game and frankly...the clans repulse me. Institutionalised racism, caste based society, eugenics, disregard for sound military tactics... No thanks.
I'd rather be freebirth scum these days! Maybe I've grown up a bit.
What draws you to the Clan way?

Disclaimer: This is meant to be a lighthearted post. Please don't degenerate into flames.

Because the clans were OP in the beginning, and all kids want to be OP.

[Valaska]

GabrielKnight, on 26 November 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

There was a time in my wayward youth when I was a Clanner at heart, but after a few years away from Battletech I've come back to this game and frankly...the clans repulse me. Institutionalised racism, caste based society, eugenics, disregard for sound military tactics... No thanks.
I'd rather be freebirth scum these days! Maybe I've grown up a bit.
What draws you to the Clan way?

Disclaimer: This is meant to be a lighthearted post. Please don't degenerate into flames.

They're a throwback to the days of knights and noble warriors, except they are with a shrewd politically scheming aspect. The clans are exciting, you never know what some upstart will accomplish just by being able to sling a nickle ferrous tennis ball around better than anyone else.

That and a few of the Clans are much further ahead than the innersphere culturally, the innersphere is wrought with racism (Davions have about 20 little nick names for Kuritas and none of them are "Sir" or "Madame"), some of the clans have very loose caste systems, while others are hard lined but not particularly hard on the lower castes as they realize them to be an integral part. In fact Smoke Jaguar died because they didn't take their lower castes seriously (they ran out of equipment and supplies, which forced them to raid other occupation zones ie Ghost Bears and Nova Cats, which wittled their forces down and gave them less equipment) which provided a wake up call for any other occupation clans to take care of their lower castes!

Even Clans people thinka re brutal on their lower castes, such as Jade Falcon, are actually fairly gentle. Sure they don't get glory, or medals or honor, well Scientists can I suppose! But they have a measure of respect and a place to fit in.

And of course, mainly, it's different than what we have today, radically so. Why would I want to throw my lot in behind something that I can flip on the news and see?

[DegeneratePervert]

I don't like them, since I find their sense of honor warped. Example:

They have super laser guns, can mount more of the laser guns on a mech, and all their mechs are faster, etc, etc.

How is it Honorable to fight someone with lesser tech than you? That's where their honor argument falls apart. There is no honor in shooting fish in a barrel, which is what it boils down to when a Clanner comes to the IS.

[Void Angel]

Metalfyre, on 26 January 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Eugenics and ******** are mutually exclusive. You may argue that eugenics WILL lead to ********/sterilization, but the Clans have been adopting eugenics for centuries, and none of this happened. If the Clans believed in the former, given the Clans' drive for perfection and their abhorrence of waste, they could and would have wiped out freeborn citizens and replaced them all with trueborns; laborers genetically engineered so their output is enhanced, scientists with bigger brains etc. The mere fact that freeborn individuals are still occurring during the invasion indicates that not only did this not happen, the Clan leadership has actually allowed for the perpetuation of freeborns. Equating the Clan's system with the **** system is just wrong; ****** had a few years and killed millions. The Clans had centuries, and the freeborn population is still thriving.

I'll respond to the rest of the wall of text when I have more time.

Eugenics and Nazism are not "exclusive;" they go hand in hand. Eugenics was the driving scientific rationale behind the whole "master race" doctrine, and the hideous crimes committed on the Eastern Front. It also led directly to forced sterilization of "mentally ********" people in institutions and other crimes in the US - this is all undisputed history (unless you're a Holocaust denier or something, but while they're loud, they're rare.) Regardless, the evils that came from eugenics in the last century were so bad that the entire scientific community abandoned it wholesale, and fervently attempted to forget it. I do not equate Nazism with Clan culture, but there is no rational standard by which a comparison of two fascist, eugenicist regimes is unfair. Certainly Clan culture contains safeguards which prevent them from becoming just "space nazis," but they're still a fascist junta - and they need the conquest of the Inner Sphere to focus their society on war. With that conquest completed, the safeguards built into Clan culture will begin to erode.

So, the fact that the Clans have resurrected the specter of eugenics is important - and I touch only indirectly (in the interest of brevity) in my "wall of text" on why "freebirths" are still occurring despite the atmosphere of constant shaming and denigration. Since a more direct treatment is needed, let me be clear: the Clan eugenics system doesn't work. Their Utopia-inspired, hive-like social structure is bursting at the seams: even given a lifetime of indoctrination on how "freebirths" dilute the purity of Clan society, people still have their own kids. And those kids are tolerated because they serve a purpose in the viciously racist context of Clan society - they're a social safety valve. Not only does even the lowest waste treatment plant worker have someone to look down on and be their social inferior, but having these children fulfills some of the basic human need for family that isn't being satisfied by the "perfect" Clan eugenics program. Contrary to your view, the Clan leadership can't eliminate freebirths - even though this would be a technologically trivial thing to do (hey, we're back to forced sterilization!) If they tried to prohibit it they'd have to use force, and they'd end up fighting their own people -it'd be like Prohibition, but with babies instead of booze. That would get ugly fast. The Clans keep the "stavags" around because it's useful to have an underclass - I would not describe anyone relegated to being a despised minority as "thriving."

Edit: spelling and grammatical flow

Edited by Void Angel, 26 January 2013 - 04:33 PM.

[The Trice]

Wait and see how will MWO online implement the clan , and according to the ranking system and the style pf play you will see weather you wanna join a faction , clan or a merc group. Its up to the system the devs will create.

[Void Angel]

Valaska, on 26 January 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

They're a throwback to the days of knights and noble warriors, except they are with a shrewd politically scheming aspect. The clans are exciting, you never know what some upstart will accomplish just by being able to sling a nickle ferrous tennis ball around better than anyone else.

That and a few of the Clans are much further ahead than the innersphere culturally, the innersphere is wrought with racism (Davions have about 20 little nick names for Kuritas and none of them are "Sir" or "Madame") [redacted for brevity]

And of course, mainly, it's different than what we have today, radically so. Why would I want to throw my lot in behind something that I can flip on the news and see?

Well, first, knights and nobles were extremely scheming - heck even the Arthurian legend has that.

But really, they're ahead culturally? Because they don't have racisim?! Are you serious, here? They sure as sin do have racism - use words like "stavag" and "freebirth." Their entire culture is founded on racial superiority - if you take away the racism you do not have the Clans. Oh sure! They don't care about the shape of your eyes or the color of your skin, but race is a social construction; it's not scientific. I very likely share more genetic similarity (as a white male) with a black male who shares my blood type than I do with another white male whose blood type is different. The Clans have done the same thing with "Trueborn" and "freebirths;" they even have a scientific excuse for it. If the Clans don't understand racism, it's in the same way that fish do not understand water - they know nothing else.

The alien culture thing I can get behind - and I readily admit that some aspects of Clan culture are healthier than any given Inner Sphere counterpart. But don't let love of the strange blind you to what you are embracing. If you or I personally joined Clan culture, it would spend the rest of our lives spitting on us.

[Westonard]

DegeneratePervert, on 26 January 2013 - 01:08 PM, said:

I don't like them, since I find their sense of honor warped. Example:

They have super laser guns, can mount more of the laser guns on a mech, and all their mechs are faster, etc, etc.

How is it Honorable to fight someone with lesser tech than you? That's where their honor argument falls apart. There is no honor in shooting fish in a barrel, which is what it boils down to when a Clanner comes to the IS.

That's why they actually bid down to being on level with their opponent, numbers wise, or more often, under their level numbers wise, to show how superior their warriors were.

I personally like the clans because I am a lore junkie. I like post Tukayid Ghost Bear, when they shifted from Crusader to Warden in view almost as a whole for the clan. Pre Tukkayid, they were ardent crusaders, but the horrors they experienced while fighting made them realize that their beliefs were wrong. Com Star used the Clan way of combat against them, the first time that it was legitemately done so. I don't count Twycross or Wolcott because those were exploiting their honor for cheap victories. Com Star said "We will fight using your rules, here is a planet, here is our defenders, here are your objectives." And the clans lost. Not through Com Star treachery, but through Com Star dragging out the fight, and using whatever they had at their disposal, such as the terrain, or using Artillery and mechanized units, which the clans disdained.

It was actually the Inner Sphere's supplement of mechanized forces with clan mechs that caused Hells Horses to make a lot of the changes to clan technology that they did. Of the active clans, Diamond Shark, and Ghost Bear are the two who remained true to their beliefs, while not compromising them, such as Nova Cat. I exclude Clan Wolf-in-exile because Ulric knew that the Jade Falcons were not going to stop with his death, they were going to annihilate the Wolves. Even Phelan Wolf/Ward/Kell kept their honor. He flat out refused to give information on the Clan home worlds, when he was asked about it, and when he fought Smoke Jaguar, or Jade Falcon, despite their contempt for him and his warriors, they treated them with the same level of respect they always had until the Clan's view of Wolf-in-exile as bandits became too costly.

The Clans should be viewed with the same view of Warhammer 40K and it's universe. There is no 'good' side. Setting aside Hanse, and the Fourth succession war, more recent events in the Inner Sphere prove just how despotic the Inner Sphere is. Victor Ian Steiner-Davion thought nothing of replacing Janos Marik's dead son with a double to keep access to Marik's production abilities. Sun-Tzu Liao exploited his position as First Lord to prepare for his invasion of the St. Ives Compact. Katherine Steiner and everything she did. Murdering her mother, murdering her brother, manipulating her sister to get control of the Federated Suns, assisting Liao in his invasion of the St. Ives compact by turning a blind eye to it, murdering Omi Kurita simply because she cared for Victor. The Word of Blake and their extremist views. Really, Focht should have shot the Precentor who left after he took care of Waterley. And chances are he came to regret it, especially with the Jihad. Kurita has the Black Dragon Society which actively undermines the Coordinator because he is more progressive than they want.

Sure, the Clans were not above such treachery, such as with the sabotage of Phelan Kell's wolf during the final Bloodname battle against Vlad, or Trent's mech being sabotaged by another Smoke Jaguar mech. But these were theoretically rarities. Abnormalities in their system. Edo and Turtle Bay was a shock to both Inner Sphere and clan. The Inner Sphere was horrified over what happened, but some were all too willing to just bombard Huntress from space and end the fight. The Clans, when they saw the footage of Turtle Bay all quit using War Ships to take planets. Or if they still used them, they no longer used them for policing actions.

The clans sought to minimize the impact that battles would have on non warriors, such as when Phelan asked Ulric to make sure that Smoke Jaguar would not win the fight for a planet, and to prevent as much damage as possible. The Warden Clans, while they might want to conquer the Inner Sphere, also sought to protect the inhabitants. The Crusaders sought to punish the Inner Sphere, and had no qualms about as much collateral damage, but they still tried to minimize it, they were not above Pyrrhic victories.

Back to the original point of the thread, why do I like the clans? As others have said, while they are not a perfect society, they try to be according to their own beliefs and values. And they don't make excuses for mistakes, but instead own up to them.

Edited by Westonard, 26 January 2013 - 01:35 PM.

[IceSerpent]

Tank Boy Ken, on 26 January 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

And how do the Clans approve of someone being the best leader? By his/hers ability to do logistics? Or by his/hers ability to go to war?

Every living (and not completely braindead) person has innate ability to go to war against somebody, so it is utterly useless for judging that person's leadership abilities.

[Gammanoob]

The Clanners ironically despite there political system being largely communist in nature remind me a lot of the Knights/Samurai(which is funny considering the IS is supposed to be the Feudal based culture).

A group of "warriors" who attempt to engage in strange forms of combat based on made up codes of "honor" whilst mostly making life miserable for the "peasant" class.

Fight inferior foes whilst claiming that it is honorable. (For example a medieval knight, decked in full armor, chasing down farmers.)

Honor of course is only extended to those worthy of it, usually other Nobles/Warriors Clanners or in rare cases a favored foe. Similarly, the Chivalric code, Bushido or Zellbrigen will be discarded or simply ignored when it proves beneficial, usually citing some loophole or reason why it was permissible. Selective interpretation at it's finest really.

Religion, history or philosophy is employed to keep the lower classes in line and to ensure that no one dares to question the status quo.

When said inferior groups of people dare to resist or fight back they are quickly and mercilessly dealt with, even though most of the reason they have become so "dishonorable" is because of the warriors themselves or people like them.

Personally, I have higher hopes for the future(even a fictional one) than a bunch of warmongering "warriors" who must hide behind elegant words such as "honor."

Edited by Gammanoob, 26 January 2013 - 02:32 PM.

[Void Angel]

Gammanoob, on 26 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Honor of course is only extended to those worthy of it, usually other Nobles Clanners or in rare cases a favored foe.

I think you mean "Warriors Clanners."

[BrotherSurplice]

This is why I dislike the Clans:

"You in the Clans try to wrap up war in a pretty little box. As long as you can keep the world on the outside of the box clean and safe, you don't care what bloody horrors you spawn on the inside . . . But they have not yet built the box that can hold war." - Shintaro Yamada, Of War And Peace And Cherry Trees

Edited by BrotherSurplice, 26 January 2013 - 03:42 PM.