457 replies to this topic

[BerryChunks]

their mechs appeal to munchkins looking for ultimate power.

their fighting philosophy appeals to people wanting unequal odds (they fight 1:2 vs IS to make up for being superior).

Their mechs look inherently more "mech-like: and less stupid (with some exceptions).

[Aaron DeChavilier]

BrotherSurplice, on 26 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

This is why I dislike the Clans:

"You in the Clans try to wrap up war in a pretty little box. As long as you can keep the world on the outside of the box clean and safe, you don't care what bloody horrors you spawn on the inside . . . But they have not yet built the box that can hold war." - Shintaro Yamada, Of War And Peace And Cherry Trees

I love that short story so much. You can apply this story to real conflict and warmongers as well.

[qultar]

i do not know were you anti claners get your info
read the clan source books on how the lower cast live

in most clans the freeborn kids are razed in groups
you are tested to see what group you fit in best
once you hit your teens non warriors are paired up
they get extra perks for working well and having kids
the idea is that by helping the clan you help your self
you do not get treated poorly for not being warriors

now some clans brake from this in small ways
some treat there lower casts harshly
and Ghost Bears are BIG on family

even the labor cast in most clans have a better life
then most of the members of the IS and are HAPPY
warriors are looked up by many but its more like
sport heroes then dictators and treating them bad
can cost you your life or even your clans right to rule

[Ken Fury]

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

in most clans the freeborn kids are razed in groups
you are tested to see what group you fit in best

Well Freedom of choice is an Evil which is better not allowed to happen.

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

once you hit your teens non warriors are paired up
they get extra perks for working well and having kids

Oh cool, no more dating and finding someone you like you listen to your superiors!

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

the idea is that by helping the clan you help your self
you do not get treated poorly for not being warriors

Correct, you'll just get told what to do, or else

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

now some clans brake from this in small ways
some treat there lower casts harshly
and Ghost Bears are BIG on family

Well that sounds cool.

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

even the labor cast in most clans have a better life
then most of the members of the IS and are HAPPY

Sure they are, they are also indoctrinated. All those young people in the [INSERT RANDOM INDOCTRINATIONAL SYSTEM HERE] were also happy, wonder why people thought that was wrong.

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

warriors are looked up by many but its more like
sport heroes then dictators and treating them bad
can cost you your life or even your clans right to rule

It's more like the noble system with the off spring of one generation holding power or rising to power on cost of their parents.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

qultar, on 26 January 2013 - 09:20 PM, said:

i do not know were you anti claners get your info
read the clan source books on how the lower cast live

We read then we apply what we know about human nature and how human culture works.

Quote

in most clans the freeborn kids are razed in groups
you are tested to see what group you fit in best

Funny you misused the word 'razed' because there have been at least one incident where an entire caste (women and children included) were exterminated. No government redress, no courts to determine guild, mass ******** by the warrior caste...I suppose they were just freebirth scum anyway. Yes I bet these castes are really 'happy' that their lives can be ended at any time by the warrior caste.

But you misunderstand what happens when children are tested. They are tested to see where they fit in the CURRENT caste, with very rare exceptions moving up and anyone that doesn't fit the standards moved down. So if anywhere you can expect people to move down in the caste system, not up.

Quote

once you hit your teens non warriors are paired up

Which goes back to what I just said, the clans are trying to 'perfect' each caste, they don't want good members of the caste leaving that caste they want them there to strengthen it.
But speaking of pairing up, what is more romantic than an official directive to mate with another person? You have so little freedom in this society that you can't even choose your own spouse. How 'happy' these couples must be, to be with someone that assigned to you by the state.

Quote

they get extra perks for working well and having kids

Yes you too can get 'credits' for working hard, and then you can use them to buy stuff off a pre-selected list of goods. This is however not actual money you can use for anything else, you can't use this to buy a higher education or anything else to move up in society.

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the idea is that by helping the clan you help your self

As every other ruthless despot has said over time...

Quote

you do not get treated poorly for not being warriors

Yes us freebirth scum are treated quite well, lets review shall we?
We are stuck in our caste, we can be exterminated by the warrior caste at any time, we have no redress, we have no court system, we can't even choose something so basic as to the person we love, and even what we buy is from a approved list. Yes life is grand isn't i.

Quote

now some clans brake from this in small ways
some treat there lower casts harshly

So this fantastic life we just talked about, some clans treat these miserable people even worse?

Quote

and Ghost Bears are BIG on family

Yes one clan likes family...great. A nicely treated slave is still a slave...

Quote

even the labor cast in most clans have a better life
then most of the members of the IS and are HAPPY

REALLY?
Hmm, the Inner Sphere...
You will probably be middle class where you can get a good education, you can acquire wealth, you stand a decent chance of moving up in the world... Oh and you get to choose your spouse, and also your own government can't just walk into your house and shoot you without question.

Edited by CG Oglethorpe Kerensky, 27 January 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

A couple points:

If I recall correctly, the only case in which the 'lower caste' was "exterminated" was not full eradication (out of necessity), and only happened during the WoR after said caste initiated open and unrestricted warfare, complete with biological and nuclear weapons, upon the Warrior caste and their infrastructure. This was also only limited to the so called Homeworld Clans, even though the Society no doubt had roots in most of the Clans. To be fair, it always surprised me how many clan warriors tend to view the scientist case so lowly, despite being a literal product of their genius and piloting technological marvels designed by the very caste they scorn.

The only other time I can think of an extermination mandate on civilians/lower castes happening was Turtle Bay, and that was so bad that ALL the Clans were shocked and disgusted.

(Edit: Oh, right. Clan Wolverine incident. Honestly, I cannot recall if the civilians suffered the same degree of violence as the Warrior caste. Given the Wolverines were heavily into unrestricted, classic SLDF style combat, I suppose it is entirely possible, but it was not an extermination of any one class. It was an extermination of an entire people, which is, honestly, way worse, and about as close to a holy war that the Clans can get to.)

Then you have Clan Ghost Bear which treats family structure with respect and allows its civilians a more or less hands off approach to their daily lives. Or, you can have Clan Nova Cat which ended up having peaceful scattering of some warriors to the SLDF military. Even with the eventual schism between Clan Nova Cat and what turned into Spirit Cats, the Spirit Cats were offered the choice to peacefully reintegrate and viewed as nothing more then family that lost its way and who would eventually return home of their own accord. The extremely short term violence that occurred between CNC and the SC only happening because of manipulations of a Sphereoid making it seem as if the Spirit Cats were assassinating Clan Nova Cat mystics.

Even that was resolved quickly, and resulted in a smooth reunification, among all the castes of the Spirit Cats. I guess you can say the Nova Cats view themselves as one gigantic family and have their own sense of patience and understanding among themselves, which is part of what is their allure to me, personally. In before 'Clans sleep with their siblings.'


One other thing:

Morality is subjective. If most of the individuals in a culture are happy and the society is functional, it is an easy mistake to make to look at it and say something is wrong. What is wrong to us is right to them, and what works for us might not work for them. If people are happy, leave them be. It is not on any other society to decide if another is right or wrong as it will always be based on a biased viewpoint.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 January 2013 - 08:22 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

BrotherSurplice, on 26 January 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

This is why I dislike the Clans:

"You in the Clans try to wrap up war in a pretty little box. As long as you can keep the world on the outside of the box clean and safe, you don't care what bloody horrors you spawn on the inside . . . But they have not yet built the box that can hold war." - Shintaro Yamada, Of War And Peace And Cherry Trees

And a few lines above that is the reason why I like the Clans:

Quote

"What did you do?" she whispered.

"A lance of DCMS Mechs caught a column of your support and maintenance forces and smashed it."

"B-but they are noncombatants. You murdered them."

If she expected him to deny it she was going to be disappointed. "Hai," said Yamada coldly. "Every last one of them."

Her head jerked back as if she'd been slapped.

Barbarians

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 27 January 2013 - 09:08 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Jaroth Winson, on 27 January 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Barbarians

Ehm...the Clans see M.A.S.H. units as military targets. Killing wounded soldiers that were allready deemed unfit for combat plus the staff that tries to keep them alive is pretty barbaric in my book.

[Gammanoob]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Morality is subjective. If most of the individuals in a culture are happy and the society is functional, it is an easy mistake to make to look at it and say something is wrong. What is wrong to us is right to them, and what works for us might not work for them. If people are happy, leave them be. It is not on any other society to decide if another is right or wrong as it will always be based on a biased viewpoint.

Certainly, this would be a great point, were it not for the fact the Clans literally invaded the IS to force their own culture upon the said people.

Personally, I would be fine with a group of people going off to create their own "Militant Communist Utopia" but once they invade my country to try and force it upon me, then we have a major problem.

Edited by Gammanoob, 27 January 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

That is a fairly accurate assessment of the Crusaders. It is why I dislike them. However, the Warden's drive is, quite literally, "if the crusaders win, it will be far worse for all of you then if we win." Arrogant assumption that the clans will absolutely win aside, it makes wardens a sort of twisted white knight of the clans.

[Gammanoob]

That is true, but it still strikes me as less than satisfactory for the invaded people.

For example in our world the Vietnamese were less than happy to be "saved" by the Americans from the threat of a communist government. Even though to the American government at the time, it was exactly a case of "we are saving you from something worse."

Continuing further we see that most people and nations will in fact not react well to military efforts to improve their stability, government or way of life.

Edited by Gammanoob, 27 January 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

This is true. However, if invasion is to happen regardless, is it not better to be occupied by the kinder force? Plus, it is not like the Great Houses do not regularly invade one another. At least in this regard, the clan desire to limit collateral damage would be considered a good thing, no?

[Ken Fury]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 January 2013 - 10:40 AM, said:

This is true. However, if invasion is to happen regardless, is it not better to be occupied by the kinder force? Plus, it is not like the Great Houses do not regularly invade one another. At least in this regard, the clan desire to limit collateral damage would be considered a good thing, no?

Well the complete cultural desctruction is something your forgetting. Art and Culture are not on par with the levels avaible in the inner sphere.

[Omni Tek]

Viper69, on 26 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

Their power, period. Everything they have is better in every way. That is what draws people. If they say otherwise they are fibbing .

Actually I only found out that the mechs I liked where Clan mechs after I decided I liked them, and I only chose them because looked the coolest... I love me my MadDog...and the Timberwolf...and the Cougar...

[Viper69]

Omni Tek, on 27 January 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

Actually I only found out that the mechs I liked where Clan mechs after I decided I liked them, and I only chose them because looked the coolest... I love me my MadDog...and the Timberwolf...and the Cougar...

And the reason most people know those mechs is because of the mechwarrior series of games. A lot of people didnt know a clan mech from an IS mech but nobody ever ran any weapon that didnt have a "C" next to them for clan. You would be the example of someone who likes them for the looks but the mech vets who like them like them for the reason I said. Function over form in a war machine, you just lucked out the cute ones you like are also very very powerful for their weight class.

[Pariah Devalis]

Not sure why my phone will not let me quote, but to Tank:
saying the Clans have a poor society comparatively would be inaccurate. Surely the Ghost Bears, the Hell Horses, the Nova Cats, and the Fire Mandrills have very unique societies. Better or worse is hard to qualify. In the case of  the Bears, they do not mess with a native population's societal beliefs so long as it will not interfere with the clan occupation. To a lesser degree Clans Wolf and Nova Cat are also into a smooth transition into occupation by not unnecessarily kicking over ant piles.
As for culture and the arts, to a degree you are right. However, clanners are known to have a self proclaimed lifes work outside of combat. Be it spending their lives on a painting, book, song, or mastery of a hobby or trade totally unrelated to what they actually do as a part of the clan. Overall it can mean there is some lack of overall clan artistic expression, but it still exists and is still, somewhat, healthy.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 27 January 2013 - 11:12 AM.

[Omni Tek]

Viper69, on 27 January 2013 - 10:59 AM, said:

And the reason most people know those mechs is because of the mechwarrior series of games. A lot of people didnt know a clan mech from an IS mech but nobody ever ran any weapon that didnt have a "C" next to them for clan. You would be the example of someone who likes them for the looks but the mech vets who like them like them for the reason I said. Function over form in a war machine, you just lucked out the cute ones you like are also very very powerful for their weight class.

Wanna hear the real kicker?
My first Mech game was MechAssault Lonewofl 2 XD (I then went back and played some of the older ones)

[Void Angel]

Pariah Devalis, on 27 January 2013 - 07:49 AM, said:

Morality is subjective. If most of the individuals in a culture are happy and the society is functional, it is an easy mistake to make to look at it and say something is wrong. What is wrong to us is right to them, and what works for us might not work for them. If people are happy, leave them be. It is not on any other society to decide if another is right or wrong as it will always be based on a biased viewpoint.

So... You're telling us that it is wrong to tell other people that their morality is wrong? Parse that statement for a second. =)

[Eddrick]

For me, it was simlar. I use to be a clanner in my youth. But, now I am not. I would have a very hard time living in that type of social structure. I do not hate the clan. I am not racest in any way. The only time I consider someone an enemy is when they are marching against me. Be them Inner Sphere or Clan.

Edited by Eddrick, 27 January 2013 - 11:25 AM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Thorn Hallis, on 27 January 2013 - 09:29 AM, said:

Ehm...the Clans see M.A.S.H. units as military targets. Killing wounded soldiers that were allready deemed unfit for combat plus the staff that tries to keep them alive is pretty barbaric in my book.

Please provide an example of what you are talking about.