457 replies to this topic

[Cik]

winson is right though, refer to ATOW to see that clan pilots are slightly superior overall due to genetics. also, clan mechwarriors are superior because natasha kerensky beats IS standard pilots. see how that works?

Spoiler

it doesn't

[Wales Grey]

Jaroth Winson, on 31 January 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

What are you talking about? Your point is that the Clans could not take the IS. This was dealt with already in a super huge thread, where using the lore, I proved my case. Can you do the same?

Uh, we're arguing the same thing. That the Clans could not have taken the IS. This is what I said. Unless you're arguing that the Clans could have been able to take over the Inner Sphere. And I haven't seen hide nor hair of this "other thread where you shot the **** out of some guy's argument", so I have literally zero clue what you're talking about.

Quote

There are at least three instances where the lore specifically states Clan mechwarriors are superior to their IS counterparts and again whatever you (or anyone else for that matter) say or think up, holds no water when compared to the people that actually made the universe.

Mechanically speaking, they are identical to Inner Sphere pilots. In terms of performance, the Clans lost Tukayyid, didn't they? In terms of performance, how many times in BT lore have freebirth pilots shown up their so-called 'superiors'? In terms of performance, it is directly hinted at in the lore that apart from Elementals, the Clan eugenics program is mostly window dressing for their intense training. So maybe you ought to go back and re-read stuff, yeah?

Ashla Mason, on 31 January 2013 - 02:21 PM, said:

Kai and Phelan aren't your average mechwarriors.

for battletech authors, they rank about a 7/10 and 10/10 on the mary-sue scale respectively

edit: I forgot which one was Phelan

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 02:35 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Uh, what? Battletech, as written, provides no special benefit to Clan pilots. I mean, they start at veteran skill levels, but other than that, there's nothing.

A Time Of War (The current mechwarrior RPG book) clearly shows on page 61 that clan characters of the warrior castes have advangages to a variety of stats depending on there particular type.

Quote

Also, there has never been a cannonical instance of a Clan pilot using the Phantom Mech skill.

Sarna.net]In the (canonical) sourcebook, on [url="http://www.sarna.net/wiki/The_Kell_Hounds", said:

The Kell Hounds[/url], a mystical ability called the "Phantom 'Mech Ability" (also known as "PMA") was postulated as the reason for the phenomenon. Both Morgan and Patrick Kell, as well as Yorinaga Kurita, allegedly possessed that ability. The Battle of Luthien Sourcebook likewise repeated a writeup for rules regarding this ability for Morgan Kell.
This sparked a controversy among fans of the BattleTech universe whether or not PMA is acceptable as canon; many feel that a mystical ability seems rather far-fetched, especially considering the technically oriented outlook of the BattleTech universe and the absence of any psi powers, magic, telepathy etc. otherwise.
The BattleTech Line Developer, Herbert A. Beas II, has since explicitly refuted the existence of such a mystical ability, expressly stating in an official verdict^[2] on the CBT Forum that "Magic" is among "Other things not BattleTech". He elaborated by saying that while some strange events happened in established canon, "most of these can be played off as near-death experiences and hallucinations".
In accordance with the Canon policy for BattleTech, this ruling retconned out the rules in the aforementioned sourcebooks and established that no supernatural ability was behind the events (which remain unexplained).

In short: it's a wierd, interesting thing that happened twice and most likely involved some obscure piece of lostech.

[Golfin Man]

H8Bitter, on 26 November 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

The fact that skill is valued over wealth, is all i need to verify where my allegiance lies.
To the untrianed eye the clanner structure may seem like a totalitarian society, I however much prefer that strict ruleset over easily corruptable systems of power.
In real world terms, Id rather live under a vicious dictator that forbid rock n roll, than have to bear witness to the increasingly stupid masses yammering on about how free they are while enclosed in their cubicles worshipping paper notes.

Your name is fitting
And you've also provided the best logic for a dictator i've ever heard

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Well the Comstars are average. And they won.

The comguards had numbers and fought a battle of attrition (which invasion era clan warriors had trouble with). If they had fought in the method you suggested earlier(1 vs. 1) then the fight would have gone very, very differently. Fortunately, Focht wasn't stupid enough to try and pit his comparatively green troops against the elite clan warriors.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

Uh, we're arguing the same thing. That the Clans could not have taken the IS. This is what I said. Unless you're arguing that the Clans could have been able to take over the Inner Sphere. And I haven't seen hide nor hair of this "other thread where you shot the **** out of some guy's argument", so I have literally zero clue what you're talking about.


Mechanically speaking, they are identical to Inner Sphere pilots. In terms of performance, the Clans lost Tukayyid, didn't they? In terms of performance, how many times in BT lore have freebirth pilots shown up their so-called 'superiors'? In terms of performance, it is directly hinted at in the lore that apart from Elementals, the Clan eugenics program is mostly window dressing for their intense training. So maybe you ought to go back and re-read stuff, yeah?



for battletech authors, they rank about a 7/10 and 10/10 on the mary-sue scale respectively

edit: I forgot which one was Phelan

No we are not. I am saying they could have.

Here is the thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...e-inner-sphere/

Funny you could not find hide nor hair of it when it is called:

COULD CLANS EVER HOLD THE INNER SPHERE?

Not mechanically training & skills wise. Clan pilots begin combat training at six by using simulators & by the time they get to their teens about to take their ToPs, they have used actual Battlemechs (in lots of cases even OmniMechs) & have fired at & been fired upon with live ammunition which does not happen in the IS. You seem to be the kind of person that would argue Star Wars with George Lucas or Star Trek with Gene Roddenberry were he still alive. The people that wrote the universe trump you & they say the Clan pilots are better. Deal with it.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 01 February 2013 - 11:42 AM.

[Wales Grey]

Jaroth Winson, on 31 January 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

No we are not. I am saying they could have.

Here is the thread:

http://mwomercs.com/...e-inner-sphere/

Funny you could not find hide nor hair of when it is called:

COULD CLANS EVER HOLD THE INNER SPHERE?

Not mechanically training & skills wise. Clan pilots begin combat training at six by using simulators & by the time they get to their teens about to take their ToPs, they have used actual Battlemechs (in lots of cases even OmniMechs) & have fired at & been fired upon with live ammunition which does not happen in the IS. You seem to be the kind of person that would argue Star Wars with George Lucas or Star Trek with Gene Roddenberry were he still alive. The people that wrote the universe trump you & they say the Clan pilots are better. Deal with it.

By "Hide nor hair" I meant "I don't really care about your silly nerd power levels arguments"

Edited by Wales Grey, 31 January 2013 - 03:02 PM.

[Cik]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

By "Hide nor hair" I meant "I don't really care about your silly nerd power levels arguments"

you obviously do you child, considering you are ******* HERE after all, IN THIS THREAD

Spoiler

calling people nerds on a forum devoted to a giant robot VIDEO GAME, while very 'goon' is still very stupid.

[Jaroth Corbett]

No what you meant was you did not realize your arguments were already dismissed by facts, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Oh Ken?

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

This is all fine and dandy, but 1 on 1 the best Mechwarriors of the Inner Sphere are better than the best the Clans have to offer (by a HUGE margin). Especially the Phantom Mechwarriors are WAY beyond anything the Clans can offer.

Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.43

Does not seem that way. See that word I highlighted? Continued; that meant they were doing so before & kept on doing so. The time specified here is after the YoP when the IS "united" & were given new mechs, training, equipment & supplies by the Dragoons. They continued to get pummeled 1 on 1.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 31 January 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[Wales Grey]

Cik, on 31 January 2013 - 03:09 PM, said:

you obviously do you child, considering you are ******* HERE after all, IN THIS THREAD

Spoiler

calling people nerds on a forum devoted to a giant robot VIDEO GAME, while very 'goon' is still very stupid.

Yes, because taking issue with people idolizing a Fascist fantasy is equivalent to power level arguments. Good job reading!

Jaroth Winson, on 31 January 2013 - 03:10 PM, said:

No what you meant was you did not realize your arguments were already dismissed by facts, but whatever helps you sleep at night.

Oh Ken?





Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.43

Does not seem that way. See that word I highlighted? Continued; that meant they were doing so before & kept on doing so. The time specified here is after the YoP when the IS "united" & were given new mechs, training, equipment & supplies by the Dragoons. They continued to get pummeled 1 on 1.

Yes, I can't see any reason why a clan warrior in a Clan battlemech would have an advantage in a one-on-one fight against an Inner Sphere pilot in a Star League era mech. No reason whatsoever. I mean, when the IS got Clan salvage and started fielding their own Clantech units the Clans still totally mopped the floor with them, right? Oh wait, Operation Bulldog.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Actually you missed what I said there.

The time they spoke about there was AFTER the YoP when they got their upgrades, they still got whopped. Also this is partly based on the machines & more on the training:



The Clans - Warriors of Kerensky Pg.62

Also remember that when the Clans prosecuted Klondike, OmniMechs were not in existence as yet. It is called skills.

As I said whatever arguments you might try to come up with have already been defeated. The lore does not back you.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 31 January 2013 - 03:28 PM.

[Cik]

Wales Grey, on 31 January 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Yes, because taking issue with people idolizing a Fascist fantasy is equivalent to power level arguments. Good job reading!




Yes, I can't see any reason why a clan warrior in a Clan battlemech would have an advantage in a one-on-one fight against an Inner Sphere pilot in a Star League era mech. No reason whatsoever. I mean, when the IS got Clan salvage and started fielding their own Clantech units the Clans still totally mopped the floor with them, right? Oh wait, Operation Bulldog.

address ATOW clan pilot advantages please, i'll wait, obviously it's the omnimechs modifying their abilities even when they aren't in omnimechs rite.

Spoiler

you are just wrong amigo, sorry.

[Ken Fury]

Jaroth Winson, on 31 January 2013 - 03:26 PM, said:

As I said whatever arguments you might try to come up with have already been defeated. The lore does not back you.

Well the Clans lost in the Great Refusal, which was fought on their terms. And Clan Sourcebooks contain a lot of Clan propaganda. The Black Thorns for example even beat the Clans while being outteched. And once they had their omnis they kicked their *****. One Random merc unit beating Clans like it's nothing.

Just because a Clan Sourcebook says that Clan Warriors are better isn't a proof, if all other Source Material indicates that Clanners aren't better.

[Ragor]

Clanwarriors might be superior to IS warriors. Who cares? I don't.

In the end they are PUG players (one on one BS and everybody for his own 'glory') vs a premade (working together. Ok, they had much to learn but got better over the years. Besides their obsolete equipment.)

And just to speak it out once more:

Clan = experienced PUG players with the attitude of a 6th grade bully
IS = unexperienced but learning premade using obsolete equipment


... and in the end for me it is all about the background and the society. And here the Clans really lost all the 'coolness' I had once seen with them. ~15 years ago.
Sorry, Clanners, you have no morale, you are selfimportant, you are acting premature, you didn't learn from history. You simply suck, bullies of the galaxy.
Horrah!

Ok, some wardens are cool since they seem to have grown out of middle school.

Edited by Ragor, 31 January 2013 - 03:51 PM.

[Cik]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well the Clans lost in the Great Refusal, which was fought on their terms. And Clan Sourcebooks contain a lot of Clan propaganda. The Black Thorns for example even beat the Clans while being outteched. And once they had their omnis they kicked their *****. One Random merc unit beating Clans like it's nothing.

Just because a Clan Sourcebook says that Clan Warriors are better isn't a proof, if all other Source Material indicates that Clanners aren't better.

nevermind, slightly ******** ~lel~

i guess we'll have to disagree then. the books literally say the clans' GE produces pilots that are superior to inner sphere ones. a few 'victories' mostly Pyrrhic and banking on the clans anticipating dezgra tactics do not IMO prove that what the book says straight ******* out is wrong.

Edited by Cik, 31 January 2013 - 03:58 PM.

[Ashla Mason]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 January 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Well the Clans lost in the Great Refusal, which was fought on their terms. And Clan Sourcebooks contain a lot of Clan propaganda. The Black Thorns for example even beat the Clans while being outteched. And once they had their omnis they kicked their *****. One Random merc unit beating Clans like it's nothing.

Just because a Clan Sourcebook says that Clan Warriors are better isn't a proof, if all other Source Material indicates that Clanners aren't better.

1. Only the crusaders (Jade falcon, ice hellion, the dessicated remains of smoke jaguar, blood spirit, fire mandrill, hells horses, burrock, wolf and star adder) fought, both jade falcon and Star adder were able to defeat the forces arrayed against them while clan wolf forced a draw. Further, all of the defeated clans were home clans and quite inexpierienced in the ways of IS tactics.

2.I'm reading the Sarna entry on the black thorns and purusing my copy of their PDF and for the most part it sounds like they had middling success.
Also:

Spoiler

3. So Novels > Source materials? Because a good half of the information about the setting comes from the Source materials.

Edited by Ashla Mason, 31 January 2013 - 04:10 PM.

[Wired]

I am under the belief that most people who like clans often where first exposed to them through MW2 and the ghost bear expansion. A great deal of the people drawn to the Clans in the tabletop game are there for the technology benefits - atleast from the number of people I've talked to about the game. Most games I've seen take place around 3050, few go beyond that point.
Does that mean that all clan lovers are munchkins? No. I've just seen too many of them.
I myself was in the leadership of Clan Ice Hellion in one of the leagues for Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries. This was my first exposure to Mechwarrior as a PC game, and I had a blast. I enjoy the lore for the clans, however I've found the period of the Clan Invasion and beyond....well Boring. I like the conflict between the IS and the rough edge of technology they have up until they start digging up lostech.

[Wired]

Cik, on 31 January 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

nevermind, slightly ******** ~lel~

i guess we'll have to disagree then. the books literally say the clans' GE produces pilots that are superior to inner sphere ones. a few 'victories' mostly Pyrrhic and banking on the clans anticipating dezgra tactics do not IMO prove that what the book says straight ******* out is wrong.

I would say that the Clan vs IS debate is a discussion between superior physical attributes - strength, constitution, reflexes - vs experience with tactics, learning, intuition. A clan warrior is forged at the anvil - its material is the finest, and it will serve you well... an IS warrior is the grizzled vet who, outside of training, has learned a few tricks on the way.

[Cik]

Wired, on 31 January 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

I would say that the Clan vs IS debate is a discussion between superior physical attributes - strength, constitution, reflexes - vs experience with tactics, learning, intuition. A clan warrior is forged at the anvil - its material is the finest, and it will serve you well... an IS warrior is the grizzled vet who, outside of training, has learned a few tricks on the way.

you are correct. if you say 'i like IS because they are more realistic and dogged people who don't give up even in the face of higher technology' that's pretty ******* cool. but saying 'clan pilots are exactly the same as IS pilots' even though that's proven to be ******* wrong is ridiculous. you can like the IS, we really don't care. they just trot out falsehoods and then they get jumped on.

[Damion Wolf]

I always wonder why people aruge with trolls.

This thread is about why people like the Clans. This thread is not about why people do not like the Clans. If you want to debate disliking the Clans or the strength and flaws of the Clans then I am sure you can easily go and find a thread to accomodate you. They do exist.