703 replies to this topic

[Turpis]

ShadowbaneX, on 23 December 2014 - 07:01 AM, said:

The whole quirk thing aside you need at least 10 heat sinks to launch a mech, so your 4G build just won't work. It's also a little light on the ammo. You could drop it down to a STD 200 and lose the ML in the RA, to add a pair of heat sinks and half a ton of armour back on.

The 4P...yeah, I've always hated the 4P, so I can't really give any comments other than never, ever alpha strike with that thing. I mean, it's no Nova, but it's close.

Oh, didn't know about the whole 10 heat sink req. Thanks, I guess I'll have to figure out something else to do with it then.

And what is a good amount of ammo for a build like this?

Edited by Turpis, 23 December 2014 - 10:57 AM.

[Raggedyman]

The HBK-4G golden formula build should have a XXX rating and not be shown to children. Awesome stuff, have tried tweak after tweak and still can't find a way of making it better beyond "Modules to taste". I still think the GridIron needs its gauss to work properly though, but ditching the SRMs is a sure move.

Great guide, love it lots.

[ShadowbaneX]

TripleEhBeef, on 23 December 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

I alpha pretty regularly with the 4P, either when I'm in a position to easily disengage and cool off, or when the guy in front of me absolutely, positively needs to be reduced to melted scrap metal, Ghost Heat be dammned!

Of course I have other, more heat conscious weapon groups.

He's got a pair of ER PPCs on his, and only the 10 DHS from the engine. At least with the 9 ML version you've got enough tonnage left over for extra heat sinks.

Turpis, on 23 December 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Oh, didn't know about the whole 10 heat sink req. Thanks, I guess I'll have to figure out something else to do with it then.

And what is a good amount of ammo for a build like this?

I'm not really sure I can help with the ammo other than to say 3t+ for each uAC/5. My CPLT-2K runs a pair of uAC/5s and goes with 7 tons of ammo. My Cataphract Hero, the Ilya Muromets runs 3 uAC/5s with 10 tons of ammo. I've been spec'ing out a King Crab with 4 uAC/5s and I think I'm going somewhere in the 12-14 tons for it's ammo supplies.

Some might consider that high, but I run dry often enough with the above and have to chase down the enemy with lasers. If you're a better shot than I am (or more reckless, or just chain fire them) you can probably get away with less. I always use full auto for them. You jam often, but you do a good deal more damage.

This is the uAC/5 HBK-4G I'd go with. It's what I mentioned above. People are going to blow that hunch off, so that ML is just excess tonnage...as mentioned you're a bit light on ammo. Don't really know what to tell you. The Hunchback is better suited to one big ballistic, not a pair of smaller ones.

The Catapult is much more XL friendly and the Jagermech has the arm mounts, both of which make it easier to mount uAC/5s.

[Turpis]

ShadowbaneX, on 23 December 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

I'm not really sure I can help with the ammo other than to say 3t+ for each uAC/5. My CPLT-2K runs a pair of uAC/5s and goes with 7 tons of ammo. My Cataphract Hero, the Ilya Muromets runs 3 uAC/5s with 10 tons of ammo. I've been spec'ing out a King Crab with 4 uAC/5s and I think I'm going somewhere in the 12-14 tons for it's ammo supplies.

Some might consider that high, but I run dry often enough with the above and have to chase down the enemy with lasers. If you're a better shot than I am (or more reckless, or just chain fire them) you can probably get away with less. I always use full auto for them. You jam often, but you do a good deal more damage.

This is the uAC/5 HBK-4G I'd go with. It's what I mentioned above. People are going to blow that hunch off, so that ML is just excess tonnage...as mentioned you're a bit light on ammo. Don't really know what to tell you. The Hunchback is better suited to one big ballistic, not a pair of smaller ones.

The Catapult is much more XL friendly and the Jagermech has the arm mounts, both of which make it easier to mount uAC/5s.

I ended up going with regular AC/5s on this build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ee6df3be5d41baf and loaded up 4tons of ammo. I thought about using the build you linked, but after running one of the slower trial mechs it felt like I couldn't get into positions quick enough to use my guns.

Thanks for the help and an idea of what I needed to do. I've been avg about 300dmg a game now with the occasional kill, unless I make a really wrong turn and get insta-gibbed.

[ShadowbaneX]

Turpis, on 23 December 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

I ended up going with regular AC/5s on this build http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ee6df3be5d41baf and loaded up 4tons of ammo. I thought about using the build you linked, but after running one of the slower trial mechs it felt like I couldn't get into positions quick enough to use my guns.

Thanks for the help and an idea of what I needed to do. I've been avg about 300dmg a game now with the occasional kill, unless I make a really wrong turn and get insta-gibbed.

I thought about suggesting normal AC/5s, but you seemed to want uACs. AC/5s do seem better. One thing I'd suggest is moving the ML in the RA into the head. The hunch is still a primary target and when it's gone, it takes that laser with it. Moving it to the head slot gives you two MLs to fight back with. You can also strip half a ton of armour off the RA to add an extra half ton of ammo if you find you're running out too often.

As for the last part, that's pretty good. I still take those wrong turns and get annihilated all too quickly.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 23 December 2014 - 10:22 PM.

[ShadowbaneX]

Any word on how feasible the 4J is with an XL? I mean the Hunchback isn't noted for it's XL friendliness, but if you're hanging back and raining LRMs, does it matter much?

edit: Ok, so the word is that it's fairly feasible...at least for CW.

For my attack drop deck, I was taking a BLR-1S with 4 LRM10s for blasting objectives. Just poke up, throw 40 missiles into the air and then duck before the counter fire. This does this half as well since it only throws up 20 missiles at a time, but once the static objectives are gone, it's almost as good as the 1S for bombarding targets. I say almost because the 1S has a 10% generic missile cooldown time, so it's just slightly faster.

I'm running mine like this. I'm not sure, but it might be too much engine. Once I get speed tweak I might consider dropping down to an XL255 and dropping either half a ton of armour or ammo for a couple of heat sinks. Also, I'm not sure about the value of TAG. Seems like that's more useful in 12 vs. 12s whereas in CW, it's more valuable to hang back and lets others deal with ECM and then I just rain death on things.

All told, the BLR was a bit better with missiles and once out of ammo could push in a bit with 4 MLs and a ton (16 of them to be precise) of armour, so it could lead a push. Can't really do that with a hunchback, but with the 35 tons saved it let me drop a Locust and take a Shadow Hawk instead, which is very nice.

Edited by ShadowbaneX, 26 December 2014 - 10:46 PM.

[Wildstreak]

Been trying Hunchies for CW.

GI - here is the one I tried in CW, I saw a vid of someone doing 2MPL + Gauss, I tried 3MPL + Gauss you just need to be a good Gauss shooter and watch heat using the MPLs. I could put the dangerous AMS ammo in a leg but I figure if they cored my CT, might as well go boom.

4H - running this, doing OK, if the heat seems too much, 1 ML could be removed for a ton more AC ammo, you could stick ammo in legs and remove CASE for beefing up leg armor to 47 each.

4J - still have this from before quirks, served and still serving VERY well and was the basis for other Medium LRM boats, only way I could see changing it is remove 1-2 tons ammo for 1-2 MLs when the LRMs go out. Still a lotta fun. There were SRM and pure Energy builds for people like Nightmare1 that do not want LRMs, look earlier in the topic for them. SRM version loses half the quirks LRM10 gets, Pulse only loses out on Duration quirk, you could even try running LL + ML for all the Laser quirks (Cooldown, Heat, Duration) with no Missiles just be aware the RT Energy mounts are low.

4G - turned it stock and cannot go back, the speed of the STD225 needed I just do not like, too slow.

4P - do not have anymore but could see doing my LL + 4ML version again, the LL loses only half the Duration & Cooldown quirks. Could even try LPL or PPC getting the Energy Cooldown & Heat quirks.

4SP - do not have anymore and would probably make it a LRM boat, it loses only half the SRM Cooldown, or go pure Energy again like those 4J builds, any Energy not a ML still has half the Heat quirk.

XL engines serving very well, another reason I do not try the 4G.

Edited by Wildstreak, 29 December 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[REllana]

I was running the 6 ML until recently when I wanted to try putting 2 PPC"s on it,so I came up with this

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ddb888b7d9ec242

My style is usually to open up with the PPC's then close in with my lasers if possible. I don't kill much but I do get a bunch of assists kill usually,plus the small lasers make good anti-light options.

[YueFei]

Wildstreak, on 29 December 2014 - 07:06 PM, said:

4SP - do not have anymore and would probably make it a LRM boat, it loses only half the SRM Cooldown, or go pure Energy again like those 4J builds, any Energy not a ML still has half the Heat quirk.

The cooldown reductions have exponentially increasing returns. The value of an initial 10% cooldown reduction is really only about an 11% increase in DPS. But when you already have 50% cooldown reduction, and you add an extra 10%, that extra 10% increases your DPS by 25%, not just 11%. If you were to stack another 10% on top of that 60% cooldown reduction, granting you 70% cooldown reduction, that additional 10% is essentially a 33% increase in DPS.

It's why, with the mechs with cooldown reduction quirks, you really wanna pick up the Fast Fire pilot skill, and then stack the weapon cooldown module on top of it.

[Bleary]

The last quirk pass turned the 4SP into a giant Huginn. You can force almost anything to back up at close range. +50% cooldown reductions are enough to make even limited chassis into dangerous DPS machines (see Dragons, Awesomes) and the 4SP had no real downsides before the quirks. As long as you don't run into too many 'Mechs at once (mediums are still fragile, even mediums with a ton of free torso armor) the thing is a cannonball.

Turning it into a pale 4J imitation would be a waste.

Edited by Bleary, 06 January 2015 - 02:13 AM.

[Errinovar]

ShadowbaneX, on 26 December 2014 - 07:47 PM, said:

Any word on how feasible the 4J is with an XL? I mean the Hunchback isn't noted for it's XL friendliness, but if you're hanging back and raining LRMs, does it matter much?

edit: Ok, so the word is that it's fairly feasible...at least for CW.

For my attack drop deck, I was taking a BLR-1S with 4 LRM10s for blasting objectives. Just poke up, throw 40 missiles into the air and then duck before the counter fire. This does this half as well since it only throws up 20 missiles at a time, but once the static objectives are gone, it's almost as good as the 1S for bombarding targets. I say almost because the 1S has a 10% generic missile cooldown time, so it's just slightly faster.

I'm running mine like this. I'm not sure, but it might be too much engine. Once I get speed tweak I might consider dropping down to an XL255 and dropping either half a ton of armour or ammo for a couple of heat sinks. Also, I'm not sure about the value of TAG. Seems like that's more useful in 12 vs. 12s whereas in CW, it's more valuable to hang back and lets others deal with ECM and then I just rain death on things.

All told, the BLR was a bit better with missiles and once out of ammo could push in a bit with 4 MLs and a ton (16 of them to be precise) of armour, so it could lead a push. Can't really do that with a hunchback, but with the 35 tons saved it let me drop a Locust and take a Shadow Hawk instead, which is very nice.

I'm pretty much in the same boat as you, I've been running my BLR-S as my missile boat in CW, I run 2 15s and 2 5s mainly because I like the 15 better than the 10 on the whole. And now I have been running the J and thinking about replacing the BLR to bulk up my low weight mech a bit. As far as the XL, works great. As far as the engine, Ive been running a 260 or 265XL and have no complaints. I have 1 ton less ammo than you, but I roll with 3ML in the RT and a tag on the head and I find it works really well because after I've burned my ammo I can still function as a hit and run brawler and spotter. In 12 mans I find the J is pretty close to the damage of my BLR, but the J usually has fewer kills simply because it launches fewer tubes. I'm pretty much considering the same trade offs as you between the BLR and the J, but I am kind of leaning towards the J.

Just did the calculations: My BLR average is 442 dmg per match over 149 matches, and my J is standing at 420 dmg per match over 50 matches.. so it is pretty close. My BLR has 163 kills (1.09 kills per match) vs the J with 48 kills (.96 kills per match). But again the intagibles make it kind of a tough choice.

[ShadowbaneX]

After playing so long without TAG it doesn't really seem that worthwhile, so I could drop it for a 3rd ML. On the other hand though there are so many Hellbringers running around on the Clan side that sometimes it might just be worth it. Most times though, yeah, TAG isn't that much of a factor.

Lastly though, running around with a BLR and 4 MLs is a lot more effective than running around in an HBK-4J. There's, 7 tons difference in the amount of armour they can carry. I feel like I can contribute a little bit leading an attack with the Battlemaster just because the extra armour and it's done it's job once it's ammo is gone. Trying to lead an attack in a Hunchback? Yeah, not so much.

Still, I think I prefer the HKB-4J over the BLR-1S because it frees up 35 tons I can use elsewhere.

[InspectorG]

Nightmare1, on 23 December 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

I do not own a 4J and am not sure if I ever will. I dislike LRM boats and am not really interested in owning a Medium Mech designed for LRM'ing.

I hope some of y'all find this post helpful! Check out my Twitch and YouTube Channels on my Profile Page for more HBK goodness! There's even a vid posted there of a 1000+ damage round in a GI...

I wouldnt call the J(or the Treb M) traditional LuRM boats.
They are way too mobile and dont carry enough ammo.

Ive seen a J with 1LRM10 and all medium lasers brawling like a mofo on Alpine.
The RoF with those 2 mechs is amazing and i hear viable for CW.

[Wildstreak]

I took the 4J above into CW. Once got halfway up Boreal from gates to gens, someone got close to a gen so I started LuRMing it. Took off about a third of the health with only 3-5 flights from 2ALRM10s.
Picture someone NARCing the gen and 3-4 LuRM boats hitting a gen.

[Errinovar]

Actually TAG was a huge factor in one of my 12 mans today because my team was without ECM and the opposition was loaded with it. So tag was the only way I could use the missiles. I managed to demolish a 5ss I caught out only by using tag before my team was steamrolled. But I do have to agree with you that on the whole TAG isn't absolutely vital.

Edited by Errinovar, 10 January 2015 - 03:38 AM.

[Errinovar]

InspectorG, on 09 January 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

I wouldnt call the J(or the Treb M) traditional LuRM boats.
They are way too mobile and dont carry enough ammo.

Ive seen a J with 1LRM10 and all medium lasers brawling like a mofo on Alpine.
The RoF with those 2 mechs is amazing and i hear viable for CW.

Maybe not traditional, but I think the traditional idea is a huge problem. Mobility is a huge advantage for a LRM platform, because on a number of maps rapid positioning is key (Crimson Straits, River City, etc.. ). As far as ammo goes, my J carries more ammo than my BLR. I roll with around 900 missiles in the BLR and simply use fire control to make the shots count. It works well for me. But with the J I use 1260 or 1440 (not sure off the top of my head) because it has half the tubes but more than double the speed (cooldown). They are about the same in effectiveness, what the BLR brings in armor, the J makes up for in speed, agility, and low stature. I commonly burn through my ammo and then go into brawling mode with 3ML and do quite well. I also find that my Kit Fox with 2 CLRM 15s does really well mainly because of its mobility.

[InspectorG]

Errinovar, on 10 January 2015 - 03:47 AM, said:

Maybe not traditional, but I think the traditional idea is a huge problem. Mobility is a huge advantage for a LRM platform, because on a number of maps rapid positioning is key (Crimson Straits, River City, etc.. ). As far as ammo goes, my J carries more ammo than my BLR. I roll with around 900 missiles in the BLR and simply use fire control to make the shots count. It works well for me. But with the J I use 1260 or 1440 (not sure off the top of my head) because it has half the tubes but more than double the speed (cooldown). They are about the same in effectiveness, what the BLR brings in armor, the J makes up for in speed, agility, and low stature. I commonly burn through my ammo and then go into brawling mode with 3ML and do quite well. I also find that my Kit Fox with 2 CLRM 15s does really well mainly because of its mobility.

Yeah, might have to spare a little contempt for the LRM if it an be used well as mobile fire-support. Dont think it would be viable on the comp scene but i dont have to worry about that.
May be viable for CW for indirect generator busting? Dunno.

I may have to try that on my Kitfox but would prefer Atremis, which ill buy after i get a HBK-J.

[Wildstreak]

I did the Cheese Fox version 2 after heat nerfs were put on Clan ER lasers making version 1 a hotter build.
Version 2 is ALRM20, 3-5 tons ammo depending on if you want max JJs or only 2, 2 ERML, 2 MG, ECM.
Great support Mech, give ECM cover from behind and never worry about people getting in the way of your shots as you lob LRMs over your allies' Mechs. By the time you run out of ammo, there is not much left to worry about.
ERM Fox.
I await the day I do the ERMbringer.

If PGI gives me ERM, I am going to abuse it.

[ShadowbaneX]

Wildstreak, on 09 January 2015 - 09:36 PM, said:

I took the 4J above into CW. Once got halfway up Boreal from gates to gens, someone got close to a gen so I started LuRMing it. Took off about a third of the health with only 3-5 flights from 2ALRM10s.

I wouldn't waste the tonnage on artemis. That's 360 rounds you're missing and in CW you need the longevity. It would be nice to see generators or Omega NARC'ed though.

Hammering gates was the reason why I brought the BLR-1S. You could just peak up, throw 40 damage into the air and then drop back taking minimal counter fire. You do need to get a little closer and spend more time there, but the cycle rate is so high, it's worth it.

Errinovar, on 10 January 2015 - 03:37 AM, said:

Actually TAG was a huge factor in one of my 12 mans today because my team was without ECM and the opposition was loaded with it. So tag was the only way I could use the missiles. I managed to demolish a 5ss I caught out only by using tag before my team was steamrolled. But I do have to agree with you that on the whole TAG isn't absolutely vital.

Exactly. There are some cases where it can be very important and on a full 12 man, I'd make sure that there were at least a few TAG/Narc/ECMs systems around. In PUGs...extremely situational. It can be useful, it can also be wasted tonnage.

Wildstreak, on 10 January 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

If PGI gives me ERM, I am going to abuse it.

We already sort of have it. Max range for LRMs is 630 in TT. Our missiles go out to 1000 m...and 1100 m with a module.

Looking into it Extended LRMs have a max range of 1320 m (or 44 hexes).

Enhanced LRMs have a max range of 840 m although they also only have a min range of 90 m.

Thing is both of them are experimental tech and only appear as prototypes in 3054 and are still advanced tech in 3080. Everyone would abuse the hell out of it, which is why we'll never see it. A huge reason for never having a time jump is that there's so much stupid tech in the future that it'd be really hard to balance.

[Void2258]

I use 270STD in all my Hunchbacks. I find the extra speed worth the slightly lower AC/20 ammo on my 4G (I can run my full build on my 4SP and 4P with that engine). Then again I also run my 4SP against quirks with 2x LRM10s so maybe that's just me.

Edited by Void2258, 19 January 2015 - 04:56 PM.