44 replies to this topic

[EDMW CSN]

1) Make Streaks always hit but require a lock to fire. No lock no sale, no missiles.

2) Make SRM capable of being dumb fired and semi-guided.

SRMs could be little more than rockets with some ability to correct itself mid flight, but I half expect 2 to 3 missiles to be kissing the sand in a 6 missile volley. Artemis would only make them a little more accurate.

[Dihm]

Just to add a question in for you Garth:

If SRMs DO end up being "dumb-fire", how would you handle Rocket Launchers, assuming the game ever got to the time frame where those became available? Wouldn't dumb SRMs make Rocket Launchers redundant? I realize this is a "hypothetical".

[MaddMaxx]

Dihm, on 08 May 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Just to add a question in for you Garth:

If SRMs DO end up being "dumb-fire", how would you handle Rocket Launchers, assuming the game ever got to the time frame where those became available? Wouldn't dumb SRMs make Rocket Launchers redundant? I realize this is a "hypothetical".

The way I always saw the SRM was a flat flight profile with limited guidance (but some). The SSRM the same but Lock provides much better damage to missiles fired ratios whereas the MRM's step up the #'s of racked missiles allowed, from SRM's max of 6 to the new MRM 10, 20, 30 and the totally crazy 40's.

TLDR: SRM's don't fly over or around LOS obstructions. LRM's with Lock simply go up and over obstacles when locked and fly just like we saw in the video's.

The MRM's also having a flat flight profile, while being a fire and forget rocket. They could require some possible target leading due to their increased max. range (450m)

Edited by MaddMaxx, 08 May 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

Dihm, on 08 May 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Just to add a question in for you Garth: If SRMs DO end up being "dumb-fire", how would you handle Rocket Launchers, assuming the game ever got to the time frame where those became available? Wouldn't dumb SRMs make Rocket Launchers redundant? I realize this is a "hypothetical". ;)

If SRMs were single fire, 1 ton for 15 rockets, and half the cost, sure.

[zorak ramone]

Just to bring up a point from another thread on this topic: in MW4 SRMs were never used because they didn't lock. Their slow speed (reletive to lasers/LBX) made it so that you had to lead very far to hit with them. This messed up your ability to use them with lasers/LBX (which required little to no leading at infighting ranges) and even if you did hit with them, they did such miserable damage, they weren't worth using anyway.

I would make SRMs guided, either with LRM lock time or like MW4 streaks. Here's how I would do it:

SRMs
-Locks the moment you put reticule on target (i.e. like MW4 streaks)
-Lock is maintained a second after the reticule leaves the target or while near the target (unlike MW4 streaks, allows for slight leading)
-Imperfect accuracy (missles track but not perfectly/tightly, may require leading to hit a moving target)

SSRMs
-Lock takes time to attain (like LRMs)
-Can not fire unless locked
-Once locked, missles all hit their target due to high speed/fast turning/automatic leading

I think this would give both missles a purpose. Lock times, turning speeds, etc. cold be tweaked for balance. However, going back to the unguided SRMs of MW4 would almost certainly be a mistake in the long run.

[Dihm]

Garth Erlam, on 08 May 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

If SRMs were single fire, 1 ton for 15 rockets, and half the cost, sure.

So the only difference is the loading mechanism?

[Solis Obscuri]

Dihm, on 08 May 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

So the only difference is the loading mechanism?

The difference is that the lower-tech rockets with higher rates of fire make the missiles obsolete, provided there are enough slots for a comparable number of rocket pods. >_>

[canned wolf]

Right, as long as you have 15 slots available and 7 tons to dedicate, a rl15 is better than a srm6.

[William Petersen]

Garth Erlam, on 07 May 2012 - 02:19 PM, said:

What would be the point of SRMs? Even if we tweak these times, unless you're firing a salvo every second or so, and lock on times are really long, no-one would use SRMs... and then with the above changes they'd never use SSRMs.

I'll field this one:Tonnage. Streaks are a little heavier than standard SRMs. For a SSRM-4, I can, instead, take an SRM-6 (though the latter is 1 more crit space). Amusingly, on average, an SRM-6's damage is pretty much equivalent to an SSRM-4. The SSRM-4, has the advantage of never wasting ammunition. EDIT: Also, the SSRM-4 packs more volleys per ton. But, the potential 'burst' of the SRM-6 is still higher.

What if Streaks locked faster? What if Streaks, as in the TT could not be fired without a lock? I imagine that after a couple losses where the player feels (accurately or not) that if he'd just been able to "dumb fire" (using loosely) his SSRMs, he'd have won an engagement, and maybe even the match, he might be willing to give SRMs more serious consideration.

If I fire an SRMs with a lock, I don't expect all of them to hit, but I do expect a modicum of tracking. If I fire Streaks (with a lock, else can't be fired), I expect every missile I send to find the target (I'm willing to accept sudden moving behind objects just after firing to intercept the missiles, of course).


They are subtly different weapons systems, but each have their benefits, even when giving SRMs their canon limited guidance. =)

Edited by William Petersen, 09 May 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

canned wolf, on 09 May 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Right, as long as you have 15 slots available and 7 tons to dedicate, a rl15 is better than a srm6.

What? Rl-15 takes up 2 critical slots, weighs 1 ton, and can be fired once - The rocket Launchers are one-shot deals where a RL-15 launches its 15 rockets and it's done, like a disposable RPG launcher. SRMs are meant for prolonged engagements and precise targeting... because we *all know* that canon SRMs are guided missiles, whereas the Rocket Launchers are low-cost blunderbusses.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 09 May 2012 - 07:21 AM.

[Dihm]

Also, don't forget about the SRM-OS variants.

[William Petersen]

Dihm, on 09 May 2012 - 10:06 AM, said:

Also, don't forget about the SRM-OS variants.

I never understood the purpose of these. They have minimal weight savings, and are only good for a single shot (obviously). Sure, the likelihood of an ammo explosion is tiny, but so is their damage output over the whole engagement.

[canned wolf]

Prosperity Park, on 09 May 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

What? Rl-15 takes up 2 critical slots, weighs 1 ton, and can be fired once - The rocket Launchers are one-shot deals where a RL-15 launches its 15 rockets and it's done, like a disposable RPG launcher. SRMs are meant for prolonged engagements and precise targeting... because we *all know* that canon SRMs are guided missiles, whereas the Rocket Launchers are low-cost blunderbusses.

Totally misread the entry on sarna i guess. The comparison is ridiculous, that's the main point I was trying to make. RL's are what you throw on a light mech as a 1st strike or a panic weapon.

[RedDragon]

To quote myself from the other topic (where we discussed the exact same thing...)

RedDragon, on 30 April 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

Translated to MWO that could be implemented in different ways:

• Firing SRMs without a lock and they try to lock on in mid-flight (hits are determined randomly, maybe affected by how long you kept your crosshairs over the target before firing).
  
• You need a lock before firing SRMs, but that only means that SOME of them locked onto the target. How many actually hit can be determined by luck or again by how long you kept the target in your sights beforehand.

Either way, SRMs should definitely be guided in some way, but they shouldn't hit all the time. Maybe the number of hitting missiles can be increased through the skills we will be able to unlock.

SRMs should be fired dumb but they should have limited tracking capabilities. SSRMs should only fire if they have a lock and then all of them should hit the target.
The sourcebooks tell us that you can fire SRMs whenever you like, but most of the time they won't all achieve a lock. SSRMs have the advantage that they always hit, but the drawback is that you may "miss that critical shot" because they may not yet have a lock.
So:
SRM = Fired whenever you like, some missiles won't hit
SSRM = Lock needed, all missiles hit

[Felicitatem Parco]

The problem with providing a lock-mechanism is that you have to provide a way for that mechanism to be "improved" by a Streak system, and your mechanism has to be engineered in a way that can be "improved" by disabling dumbfire. How can you "improve" a system by removing a feature that useful?

I do have a solution for this, but that solution can only work under one condition. Now, I don't care about how the locking mechanism of normal SRMs will work because they are not the point of discussion; I am strictly speaking about Streak SRMs from this point -> forth. In order for my solution to work and stand true to canon by improving a fire control system by disabling dumbfire, Streak SRMs must be able to gain target-lock and enable missile guidance the very instant your reticule is aligned on a hostile target (instant-lock).

If you hate the idea of instant lock, then you'll hate everything I say from here-on-out.

Streak SRMs could allow a pilot to either fire them without a lock (dumbfire), or fire them with a lock that is acquired simply by lining your sights up on a hostile target. That's instant-lock, you don't have to wait for a target lock to be acquired. If that is how Streak SRMs function, then you can indroduce an improvement of the system here. Create a toggle-function that allows a pilot to switch the firing controls and disable dumbfire, thereby allowing the pilot to only fire when your reticule passes over a target and your missiles are locked. That would be a great improvement because

• poor accuracy won't result in wasted ammo or wasted time reloading
  
• every missile you shoot is guaranteed to be guided
  
• you can spam the trigger with IMPUNITY!!!

... but you would lose the ability to manually lead a target and dumbfire them like rockets.

... until you hit the toggle switch again and enable dumbfire!

[canned wolf]

MW2 streaks insta locked. I don't see a problem with that. They also lost lock as soon as the reticle wasn't over the target, which made using them a bit different than other missile systems.

[Black Mamba]

Instead of making it guided, can't we just make the missiles move a bit faster? I feel they're quite slow right now. Seems dull watching them move slowly in a straight line.

[Woska]

Even if there is a lock mechanism for standard SRMs, they should not be guaranteed to hit. And if you hit, not all of them will hit most likely.

A lot of the usage of ammo based weapons in Battletech was waiting for a good shot to conserve ammo instead of firing them every round just because you could.

[theginganinja]

How about including a tracking system for standard SRMs, but making it a bit crappy - it would not have very much room for correction (in other words, a relatively small cone around the target in which you could fire and still expect to get a hit), and couldn't adjust well to sudden changes in the target's speed and/or direction. This sort of lock could be acquired in 1-2 seconds - or, perhaps even instantly when you have your target under the crosshairs. I figure the overcharged shot fired by the Halo series' plasma pistol is a decent example of the tracking ability I would like to see; unfortunately, I can't find any videos that actually demonstrate it (turns out, the only legitimate way to use the plasma pistol is to spam the single fire. Guess I've been doing it wrong all this time )

As far as Streak SRMs go, I think there should be a short lock-on time (maybe 2 seconds), at the end of which you can fire a salvo that will not miss unless the target manages to put some sort of obstacle between them and your missiles.

[Redshift2k5]

for one look forward to dumb-fired SRM missile shotguns.

Preferably to your rear torso armor